Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Eclipse — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:59:59 GMT

The Breeders Cup is one event...and the winners of this championship at the end of the year often have run in some of the best races of the year. However, this is but one race.

And Jim C -- I find it amusing how you see yourself as the only rational objective person...in your selection of Zenyatta as HOTY. She has the best moment of the year with her BC win. But did you notice that Rachel in the same nominations for moment of the year had 4 different races that she performed in...the Kentucky Oaks, the Haskell, The Woodward and the Preakness...

Well, that tells you something...doesn't it? She had a year long campaign...a campaign with multiple spectacular moments while Zenyatta had but one...

The Eclipse awards on the other hand represent not the results of one race, but the results of an entire year's labor.

If you want to award the Eclipse award to all the winners of BC races (which would be impossible since there are no 3 year old BC races) then you are limiting yourself to a single performance to determine a champion.

Such a scheme does not make sense.

Gary At Rough Creek:

As far as carrying weight...it seems that by your reasoning only an older handicap horse is ever eligible to win HOTY...

Curlin as a three year old did not carry the most weight in his last two races of the year...and carried similar amounts to his other competitors in his other races...so by your measurement

What you seem to ignore is that Rachel made history in all but one race...as a three year old filly. Zenyatta made history once with her BC win..and supposedly finishing her career undefeated...but that is up in the air now.

Zenyatta had one quality win...in the BC Classic...her other wins were against the same horses she had beaten up on the previous year...she faced one Grade I winner all year before the BC.

Rachel faced multiple Grade I winners in two races...

And according to Steve Haskin...she faced horses racing at their best...posting some of their best BSFs against her at the time...while none of the Horses Zenyatta faced except Gio Ponti and Twice Over posted their best BSFs against Zenyatta.

Rachel on the other hand had Macho Again post a 109 in the Woodward Stakes a career high for him and Bullsbay hit a 106..one off his career high in the Whitney, Summer Bird posted a 106 in the Haskell better than his Belmont Stakes Beyer, Mine That Bird post a 106 in the Preakness...better than his Derby win...a career high against her...

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Non-Caifornia Bias — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:28:58 GMT

Jim C:

There is no East Coast bias when it comes to voting, but there are other biases which come to pass as a result of people being able to witness a horse's campaign.

Zenyatta only raced in California this year so there was going to be a bias against her likely in the 49 other states. This is why if you truly want to campaign a horse for Horse of the Year the way to do it is by getting out of your comfort zone and running in more than 5 races at more than 3 tracks in more than 1 state.

And as for there being adequate horses to race with Zenyatta and Rachel...all one has to do is increase the purses so that third and fourth place finishes pay well in the event the other entries do not spring an upset.

Big D:

As for Rachel being shot after the Woodward Stakes...maybe you should reflect on the reality that this was a three year old filly taking on older horses that were bigger and more muscular than she was...that she had completed an 11 race in 13 month campaign which took a lot out of a three year old filly...and that Zenyatta was a five year old mare who ran just morfe than half the races Rachel ran...and Rachel ran them all over the East coast whereas Zenyatta was at her home barn for all but one race all year.

Examining matters with a little more perspective makes the choice much clearer.

Its interesting that you would put Z against Curlin any day...but Z's connections opted not to when they had the chance...and that was on Zenyatta's home track...had they raced her and she had won the BCC in 2008 she would have been HOTY...likely...but they opted not to.

In 2009 Rachel raced more races than Zenyatta raced in a sinngle year in her entire career...and Rachel did it as a three year old...when Zenyatta only raced in 2 non-stakes races as a three year old while Rachel ran in 8.

You also forget that Zenyatta was older than all but two horses she raced this year including in the BCC this year...Awesome Gem and Einstein. Rachel was the same age or younger than all the horses she faced.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Big D — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:35:56 GMT

I recently watched ALL of RA's and Z's 2009 races and took a look at the make up of and the numbers in each field. I also took note of how RA & Z looked near the wire and after crossing the wire. No contest, Z was tops. RA was shot after the Woodward and Preakness. I have yet to see Z blowing after any race! Times don't always do it, winning does (for those who know how horses run). I agree with some of you about the significance of the BCC and the part it should play in selecting HOY. Z ran and RA didn't. Jerry Bailey said at the time if Z didn't win HOY it would be a travesty. Bob Baffert agreed. Unfortunately we are dealing with the ever and always biasd media. I'm sure RA would have run in the BCC had she been allowed to make that decision but .... Unfortunately Jess Jackson again stole the award having ducked the BCC and isn't he really the one who gets the praise for it all. What kind of support does his decision not to run do for the credibility of the biggest race of the year? Z beat the best and deepest field of the year in the BCC. What can you say to that? Unfortunately, you can't count 2008 but guess who was runner up then? I would put Z against Curlin any day. Didn't he get beat by a filly, Rags to Riches? And what else did she do? How many female horses run for several years in graded stakes races and remain undefeated? Hmmm, perhaps one, Personal Ensign (Peppers Pride doesn't count, sorry). Luckily Z will have one more chance to finally win the award she has been so unfairly denied that is unless Jess Jackson can pull some more strings or come up with yet another horse from out of nowhere.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Matt H. — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:18:57 GMT

I was quite suprised last monday night being a rachel fan myself i thought zeynatta had it in the bag i would be liying to you if i said that i didn't want the whole intire debate be over with that is why i think it would be nice to see these two horses in the same race however i don't think 2 million dollars is enought to see these two owners make that chooice i would almost say it is almost going to have to happen in the worlds richest race which is dubai or the breeders cup in november.  i do know what the voting margen was i thought it would be alot closer then that but something should be said for the fact that zeynatta has been beat out two years in a row by a horse that has been defeated in her career i am not taking anthing way from rachel i am just saying it is kindof funny how you think a undefeated horse like zeynatta has it in the bag for three months and they end up going the other way but eather way i will take it because unlike everyone else.  i have become a costume to likeing them both.  even though i don't really care for the owner ship of one of these horses and i am not saying who.  but we will see what happeneds down the road they are both good horses and they both deserve a shot to get in the hall of fame but i think the altament would be for one of these horses to be the altime greatest horse in all of horse racing.  we will just have to see which one that is.  i do have a personal preference and excuse me zeynatta fans but it is rachel.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Bob Z — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:53:04 GMT

Saratoga AJ,

You are quite correct...

Ruffian took a bad step.. maybe stepped on a small rock or whatever...

I don't understand how the misinformed think a match race puts the horse at any more risk than a regular race...

When Rachel is running on the lead with another horse step for step with 8 horses trailing them...

why is she not as the same risk as if it was a match race against one horse....?

I'm amazed that people actually think a match race puts the horse at more risk...

She is probably at more risk in a multi horse field ... if she has to pull up there are 8 other horses bearing down on her...

People get an idea in their head which is usually just that... an idea of somebody else and get locked into it....

If Ruffian broke down in a field of 10 horses ... would the same people be saying that races with 10 horses shouldn't be allowed because of the risk...?

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

joe schmoe — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:11:17 GMT

It was a media bias that won HOY for RA. "The peoples choice" in EVERY poll I saw was Zenyatta for HOY. Much better to be the choice of the people than the biased media.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

marktoothaker — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:28:26 GMT

Starting to hear lots of rumors coming from New Orleans that Rachel

is not training well and could be retired. I hope this is only a rumor.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Joanie — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:51:23 GMT

Tim:

The "east coast bias" nonsense is just that, nonsense. Some people on the west coast voted for Rachel and some people outside of California voted for Zenyatta.

It's not east coast bias. Maybe it's New York bias, New Jersey bias, Maryland bias, Kentucky bias, Louisiana bias and Arkansas bias. You see, that's what happens when you race all around the country, at different tracks, in different states, on all kinds of track conditions. You broaden your fan base, and impress the voters with a campaign for the ages.

Wake up and smell the roses!

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Saratoga AJ — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:15:24 GMT

Rachel:

Nothing wrong with a Match Race. Some of the greatest, most popular, and legendary races in the history were match races, like Swaps/Nashua,

Man O' War/Sir Barton and War Admiral/Seabiscuit, etc. Besides, judging by her running style your Rachel would have a distinct advantage in a match race format with just about every horse around, including Zenyatta. Her pace numbers and running style indicate as much.

The Ruffian/Foolish Pleasure sored people on match races because it was blamed for Ruffian's breakdown. When, in fact it had nothing to do with it. She actually ran faster early fractions in some of her earlier races. It was merely a case of taking a bad step on the Belmont backstretch that tragic day.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Saratoga AJ — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:03:23 GMT

Tim:

The experts got it wrong and you got it right...very funny.

130-99 is not really all that close, either. Stop being a crybaby.

Justice was served.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Brigitte — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:13:48 GMT

Let's retire the 2010 HOY debate. I'm glad I didn't have to choose between Zenyatta who dominated the Classic seemingly without effort and Rachel Alexandra who had the best 3 yo campaign since the days of triple crown winners. The voters chose Rachel, bravo Rachel! End of story.

Winning HOY does not mean Rachel is "the best horse" of the two. Suppose it had been Zenyatta instead of Macho Again running at Rachel in the Woodward. Suppose it had been Rachel instead of Anabaa's Creation Zenyatta had to catch in the Clement L Hirsch. At longer distances I'd pick Zenyatta, except in a match race where Rachel could set a crawling pace and have enough left at the end. But Rachel will be bigger and stronger at four. If she trains on it will be a grand rivalry. Let it be so!

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Colin — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:06:56 GMT

They got the award right. Rachel Alexandra had the HOY campaign. If anything, 2009 clearly answers once and for all that the Breeder's Cup does not define Horse of the Year. Take a look at what a three year old filly did in 2009, THAT defines HOY.

I am 100% sure the Mosses did what was right for Zenyatta. But, they did not go after HOY. This year, I hope they get her there.

And Jess Jackson's acceptance speech - class act. Congrats on your filly Mr. Jackson and thanks from this fan for how you campaigned her.

Best wishes to Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta in 2010.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

GreyK — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:18:48 GMT

The sour grapes "East Coast bias" folks need to look at Zenyatta's 99 votes and see how many "west coast" votes there were in the total voter pool. The truth is Zenyatta got her share of Eastern votes. She's a truly great mare and deserves a little more class from her fans. Rachel's honors were earned on the race track, not "by proxy" as Jerry Moss commented so ungraciously. I forgive him for being upset that night and hope both these horses meet in a dirt race with males in the mix. I only hope Borel has a rear view mirror so when that Snata Anita freight train comes roaring up behind him he can ask Rachel to hit the afterburners in time. I pity all the other entrants, but who knows? Maybe there is a horse out there this year who can beat both of them.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Jim C. — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 04:03:31 GMT

To Ruffian316,

It's ironic you chose that name for your handle. The HOY vote will go down as the biggest Black Mark on the Sport since Ruffian's last race.

Like I said, the Eclipse Awards have been rendered meaningless. There is still a HUGE disconnect between the solid majority of horse racing fandom, who clearly preferred Zenyatta, and the turf media. In what other sport is the "Champion" determined by a poll of wise guy East Coast media writers? (At least college football has the BCS).

The Breeders' Cup was created to determine the champions of this Sport, with the BC Classic being the biggest race of the year. Rachel's connections ducked the event, while Zenyatta mowed down the best field assembled in any race this year. Zenyatta stunning, come from behind victory is truly one of the Golden Moments in the history of the Sport. She is the Champion. Of the Year. At least to any rational, objective person.

So the upside to the Eclipse Awards travesty is that, hopefully, people will now see how truly meaningless the Awards are.

And as for RA, she's a great filly, to be sure. But who did she really beat worth remembering? Macho Again? Good grief.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Tim — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 02:40:07 GMT

It was truly the east coast bias that was the deciding factor for the HOY. There were 175 more votes outside the western United States, and Zenyatta still lost by only 31 votes.

In fact, according to the Paulick Report - it's still about 50-50 that the decision was a bad one.

And according to the public opinion polls Zenyatta even out-polled Rachel Alexander in her own area - New York, New Jersey, Kentucky, Maryland.

This is one time that the people got it right and the elitist voters got it wrong.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

gary at rough creek — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:05:59 GMT

HOY should go to the best horse in my opinion. Zenyatta had more quality wins, at steeper imposts, than Rachel did. This makes her a better race horse in my estimation, regardless of track surface (just a coincidence and possibly worked to her detriment) and top beyers (increasingly obsolete and a joke).

But something bigger bothers me about how people talk about these two horses...and the Triple Crown trail, etc. Are some so ungrateful that without "Superstars", and more than that, "Superstars racing each other", that this entire sport will die? Is that what some have to have to get them interested in horse racing? I know, I know. I'd rather see great horses race time and time again, even (lord forbid) at distances that aren't their optimal and at tracks that aren't just perfect for their chances. A steady diet of $5K claiming races would be too hard even for me to take.

But, I don't HAVE TO HAVE Superstars racing each other all the time to be a huge fan of horse racing. I love horses. I love athletic horses, even if they aren't the best in history. I even love the people who are dedicated to these horses, me being one.

Zenyatta to me is one of the best race horses (male or female) in history. Period. Rachel Alexandra is not...she was not even the best horse in two of her victories over colts at equal weights in 2009. That doesn't mean she's not a fabulous filly. She is. And to be honest, I'm glad to see that both of these horses will race in 2010.

But if the talking heads in this business - and quite a few on these blogs - can't be content with horse racing unless only the "best of the best" (and not just the best of the year, but the best of ALL TIME) stay at the track, then they are too spoiled and ungrateful to maintain their positions. Quit the whining, quit the moaning and appreciate the people and equine athletes that make this business run. Maybe it is a $5K claiming race, but where else can you double or triple your money in a minute ten or a minute fifty? Get a grip.

And if you can't appreciate a runner unless they are the best ever, if you keep calling some of the best horses of their generations "flukes" when they obviously aren't, then get out. Get another sport. Your insights aren't accurate, or funny, or helpful.

So yeah, be thankful for this year, when we (supposedly) will have these two great racehorses at the track. But don't REQUIRE it every year or ELSE....

Don't forget MTB...he'll be back. And hopefully Summer Bird too. And watch out for Musket Man. And all the up and coming young horses. If these OTHER horses aren't enough to get the excitement up, then I'm afraid we've raised "fans" that are just too darned spoiled to please. And man aren't they loud?

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Rachel — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:38:02 GMT

Sweet Terchi, I agree...one match race in my lifetime was plenty.

Rivalries are great. Match races are stupid.

Not one of us who saw Dr. Fager/Damascus, Affirmed/Alydar, Sunday Silence/Easy Goer, even lesser rivalries like Silver Charm/Freehouse could EVER disrespect one for the other...

...well, unless those rivalries were being run in today's "bashing" atmoshere.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Pasturelands — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 07:37:10 GMT

well-said Ruffian 316... so Louann cingel, accept that RACHEL will go down in History as THE HORSE OF THE YEAR 2009.

Mr. Waldrop and Jason are NOT ALONE: Rachel did have a MORE CHALLENGING campaign, and therefore MERIT the Horse of the Year award MORE than Zenyatta who only had 5 victories. And Jackson announced 6 months EARLIER ON, that Rachel WILL NOT RUN in the BC, so he DID NOT DUCK anybody, much less Zenyatta.

And as far as who the "better" horse is, I believe that honor rests with the horse that ACTUALLY WON the ECLIPSE AWARD for HOY 2009 -- RACHEL ALEXANDRA. Zenyatta has fans, and therefore can win ANY POPULARITY POLL here and there, but her record FALLS SHORT of a TRULY CHAMPION HORSE.

I just pray that both Rachel and Zen will race safely and successfully this year-- match race or not.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Funny1991 — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:45:23 GMT

I believe that HOY should be given to the horse that had the best year not years, and that horse was Rachel.

I love both horses so much that I actually don't want them to face each other, but i know that they will most likly. So I believe that they should have a best 2 out of 3 race against each other too really see who is the better horse. Also maybe a race in between of them racing against each other so they can take an easy win and then race against each other.

I would love to see how she is on dirt. Her only dirt win was in the 08 against say Ginger Punch who never really had a good year in 08. So I would love to see her race against good dirt horses. I kind of think even Icon Project, if she was on her A game, could maybe give the Zen master a run for her money, but thats my opinon.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

ruffian316 — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:49:49 GMT

To Jim C.,

Mr. Waldrop did not do anything wrong. In what other sport is there a "shared champion?"

Champion is singular.

I'm sorry that you didn't get your way and are upset, but remember, not everyone shares your opinion. So no matter what decision was made, some people would be upset, because in life not everyone will agree with you.

Secondly, I'm sure you read about how that evil, biased, east-coast voter actually voted for Zenyatta -- not just for Older Female but also for HOY! So much for your east-coast bias theory. I'm tired of reading comments about bias....the campaigns speak for themselves...period. Would you like a Kendall-Jackson vintage? Or do you have enough wine already? (just kidding bud)

West-coast trainers should not boycott the event simply because the voters thought one horse had a better "year." The Classic had NEVER been the be-all, end-all race. Why should it have been any different this year?

And lastly, Rachel's connections COULD NOT HAVE ducked Zenyatta in the Classic, since they announced they wouldn't be running in the BC after the Preakness, and Zen's connections didn't even commit to the Classic until 3 days before!

Zenyatta is an awesome mare, but her 2009 campaign leading up to the Cup was not enough. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less. I hope you can pick up the pieces and move on with your life.

Please don't attack Mr. Waldrop. He is doing the best he can given the circumstances. And let's be fair...no matter which horse won...someone was going to be upset.

I am sincerely sorry that you were disappointed by the vote, but I think you know in your heart Rachel had a standout season that couldn't be ignored.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Pam S. — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:49:02 GMT

Sam Anderer, I too believe the Big 'Cap would be a good spot for Zenyatta to kick off her season. But it's only 1 1/4 miles, not 1 1/2, so that's even better!

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

datflippinrabbit — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:56:29 GMT

If the race is a filly race,who else is going to enter,i don't want to see a match race.

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

carolyn — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 03:46:40 GMT

JRTY, Hey, we will be lucky to see one race between these two girls, Can we imagine three? I say send them both to the ARC this year?

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

Beverly Donahoo — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:20:23 GMT

I certainly hope that for the horses' well-being, the owners and trainers of Rachel and Zenyatta stay true to their feelings that the horses come first. I don't think that either Mr. Jackson of Mr. Moss will bend to the media hoop-la of trying to get the two to run before either of them is ready to race!! Certainly, there will be no match race!!!! That is totally asinine. Besides, after the debacle with Ruffian and Foolish Pleasure, cooler heads will prevail and the industry will stay with the "no match race" philosophy.

Bev D

re: Rachel Alexandra vs. Zenyatta--Act II

sweet terchi — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 01:46:37 GMT

No, no match race. I hope never again to see one. These two spectacular horses should go on a campaign to suit each one, and if they meet in the same race, good for us. IMO forcing situations only has a negative result.