Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Saratoga AJ — Wed, 27 May 2009 15:28:46 GMT

Gun Bow,

I am pleased to see the JCGC included in the races where you may not use the winner's name again, along with the triple Crown and big 2 BC races. The JCGC was always the championship race for the year until 1983...what the BC Classic is since.

And good old Kelso won it 5 straight years. Can you imagine if a horse won the BC Classic 5 straight years?

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

GunBow — Tue, 26 May 2009 23:01:58 GMT

Saratoga AJ + Becky;

interesting info on the usage of names. Thanks

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

sweet terchi — Tue, 26 May 2009 22:56:51 GMT

Saratoga AJ & Becky Johnston - thanks for the info, very much appreciated. Kelly C. on another blog found the filly on pedegreequery which I guess is a suspect site, that claimed she is by Statue of Liberty out of Armagh, which then someone found that Armagh never had a 2008 foal. Anyhow, I really enjoy reading all the comments. Thanks again

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Becky Johnston — Tue, 26 May 2009 16:17:30 GMT

Sweet Terchi, yes the name Ruffian has been retired or permanently reserved with the Jockey Club and would not be used again. Those same rules don't necessarily apply in other countries.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Saratoga AJ — Tue, 26 May 2009 15:20:58 GMT

sweet terchi:

According to the Jockey Club Registry, the section below outlines the rules on names that answers your question:

NAMES THAT CAN NOT BE USED:

"# 12. Names that are currently active either in racing or breeding (see Rule6(E));

# 13. Names of winners in the past 25 years of grade one stakes races;

# **14. PERMANENT NAMES: The list of criteria to establish a permanent name is as follows:

**a. Horses in racing's Hall of Fame;

b. Horses that have been voted Horse Of The Year;

**c. Horses that have won an Eclipse Award;

d. Horses that have won a Sovereign Award (Canadian Champions);

e. Annual leading sire and broodmare sire by progeny earnings;

f. Cumulative money winners of $2 million or more;

g. Horses that have won the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont Stakes, The Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Breeders' Cup Classic or the Breeders' Cup Turf; and

h. Horses included in the International List of Protected Names."

Since Ruffian won two Eclipse Awards (2 & 3 Yr old Filly Champ), and is the Hall Of Fame, nobody should be able to use her name again. Unless she's not a race horse!

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

LDP — Tue, 26 May 2009 09:59:12 GMT

barb,

thanks, for the reference. Interesting that they didn't allow geldings to run in the belmont. Still it's been 53 years that geldings have been allowed to run, and only one has done it. I think it would still be a great feat to pull off if MTB won. Though now i'm wondering how many geldings competed in the Belmont during the 53 years they've been allowed.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

sweet terchi — Tue, 26 May 2009 02:01:43 GMT

GunBow or Saratoga AJ, I have a left field question, which I know one of you has the answer. Aren't names of notable horses "retired"? There is a 2008 filly who has the name RUFFIAN. I was under the impression that names could not be used again in the original form.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

barb — Tue, 26 May 2009 01:35:57 GMT

LDP...Part of the reason only 1 gelding has won the Belmont is that they didn't allow geldings in the race from 1919-1956. From reading your posts I know you are eager to learn all you can about racing and I would recommend you get The Thoroughbred Times Racing Almanac. It is FULL of history and other information that I'm sure you would LOVE. It comes out every year and is about $20.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Tue, 26 May 2009 01:15:25 GMT

You're right, Gun Bow...you said "among the best", not "the best". And not better than Ruffian. I stand corrected!

I actually started out a big fan of Carry Back...he was the first horse I followed and got me into racing back in 1961. He did beat Kelso twice and it took track records both times. Kelso beat him about 6 or 7 times though. My respect for Kelso grew as he just kept beating all the new stars every year. Each year's new hot 3 yr olds, each years new handicap stars. He beat them all.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

GunBow — Mon, 25 May 2009 21:40:30 GMT

Saratoga AJ:

I never said Zenyatta is better than Ruffian. Maybe you have me confused with someone else?

I stated that on synthetics I think Zenyatta is virtually unbeatable. However, that is in reference to the horses currently in training. Ruffian, or Secretariat for that matter, aren't alive anymore, so they couldn't run against and beat Zenyatta.

I am too young to have seen the Kelso-GunBow wars, and am invious that you got to see both those great horses in person. no, there will never be another 5-time Horse of the Year; there will never be another Kelso.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

LDP — Mon, 25 May 2009 16:48:09 GMT

Wow, i know that 85 is only like 24 years, so not exceptionally long but still if MTB wins the Belmont he'd be only the second gelding to pull that feat off. Wow. Thanks Tiznowbaby and Citation, i wasn't alive then, so i wouldn't have know. Thanks again.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Saratoga AJ — Mon, 25 May 2009 15:41:57 GMT

Gun Bow:

Better than Ruffian? I don't think so.

BTW, when I was 17 I was fortunate enough to be among the 65,000 at Aqueduct on 9/7/64 when the mighty Kelso ran down your namesake in the $100K Aqueduct H'Cap in one of the most memorable races of my life.

Kelso had lost to GB in July by 14 lengths in the Brooklyn H'Cap. Word was out that 4 time HOTY Kelso was finished at 7. Not so. He beat GB that day at the Big A, in one of the most emotional scenes I ever witnessed at the track. Racing was alive and well in the 60's.

www.youtube.com/watch

GB beat Kelly by a nose 3 weeks later in the Woodward, then Kelso crushed GB in the 11/11/64 Washington DC Int'l when Kelly ran the fantastic 2:23.4 1 1/2 miles on turf (11 days after setting the World Record 3:19.1 in the JCGC...a record that still stands today)....and HOTY #5.

www.youtube.com/watch

It was a great rivalry. But Kelso prevailed just like he did over every other challenge by a who's who of the 1960-65 time period.

We'll never see another 5 time HOTY ever.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

sweet terchi — Mon, 25 May 2009 14:55:57 GMT

I replayed the tribute video to Zen a couple of times, a masterful work of art, and a fitting tribute to a magnificent mare.Thank you Partymanners

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Citation — Mon, 25 May 2009 14:23:45 GMT

LDP, Creme Fraiche in 1985 was the first and only gelding to win the Belmont.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Tiznowbaby — Mon, 25 May 2009 14:21:37 GMT

LPD, the last gelding I can remember winning the Belmont was Creme Fraiche. (early eighties?)

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

GunBow — Mon, 25 May 2009 06:48:26 GMT

As for fans, we are very lucky to have 2 horses like Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra. I also think Mine That Bird and Einstein are wonderful, but these two females are possibly all-timers. The fact that Rachel is as good as any 3 year old colt(and one very brave little gelding), and Zenyatta is probably as good as any older male makes this a very unique year. It is very rare when, as many have suggested, the 2 very best horses in the continent are probably both females, one 3 years old and the other an older mare.

On dirt, I might give Rachel the advantage due to her tactical speed, but on synthetics I truly believe Zenyatta is virtually unbeatable. On synthetics, unlike dirt, you really do not need a quick pace to set things up for a horse with as devastating a kick as Zenyatta. Synthetic races play out more like turf races, and unless the pace is something like :25 and :49 or :50 for the half, speed has trouble kicking away.

I would like to see Jerry Moss and John Sheriffs take a few risks this year with Zenyatta. The Stephen Foster is too soon, but I see no reason why she couldn't run in the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic, or Goodwood. I do not necessarilly think that she has to do ALL of the following: 1)Run on dirt again; 2) Run back East; 3) Run vs. Males; 4) Run vs. Rachel.

Some seem to want Zenyatta to run back East in a gr.1 dirt race like the Whitney against older males and possibly Rachel as well. That's not going to happen. As I said, I would be a little disappointed if we only saw Zenyatta in a campaign in which she ran in the Vanity, Chula Vista, Lady's Secret, Breeders Cup Ladies Classic. However, if she were to win all of those races, including the Ladies Classic over Rachel, and retire 14 for 14, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to deny her greatness. Still, I think Moss and Sheriffs can make that bid for greatness more historic if they substitute in the Hollywood Gold Cup for the Vanity, or the Pacific Classic for the Chula Vista, or the Goodwood for the Lady's Secret, or even the Breeders Cup Classic for the Ladies Classic. If she were to win one of those races, beat Rachel somewhere along the line, and finish undefeated, she would certainly deserve to be mentioned with the greatest female racehorses of all time.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Ida Lee — Mon, 25 May 2009 03:21:04 GMT

Oh Yeah!!! The Queen is back!!! Zenyatta reminds me of my great equine love Ruffian, both big, drop-dead gorgeous and incredibly talented. Today, I don't care who's the better horse -Zen or Alexandra the Great -they're both wonderful in my eyes and bring me much joy just looking at them. When they run, it's poetry. I pray they stay safe and healthy.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

LDP — Mon, 25 May 2009 02:50:26 GMT

Tim,

Last year is done and over with, so please don't get me started. Curlin won the HOTY because of his overall body work. He basicly faced anybody anyone threw at him, and ran exclusively in Grade ones. The only two race he lost were on a surface he was not really preped for and a race he just up and pointed to with a month of real preperation, on a foreign surface that plays more like turf. Zen faced feilds restricted to fillies and raced outside of Cali once, taking no risks, by staying in Cali and beating up on her own sex. She may have been brilliant and unbeaten, but had culin be managed as conservitively as she was he'd be unbeaten too. He won HOTY fair and sqaure, now please stay focused on this year, which is turning out very well. I can't help but like Einstien who is on a roll. He's what seven and has a grade two win on dirt, from last year, as well as grade one placed. From this year he has a third i think in the Donn if i remember correctly, has won a grade one on turf and synthetic, and became the first horse to win consecutive Woodford Reserves. Pretty spiffy for a seven year old if you ask me. Then the champ finally returned, looking, literally like she was going run the gate over. She looks just fantastic, which doesn't even begin to truely describe how perfect she looked. You have the Underdog MTB who wins the Derby, gets second in the Preakness, and is looking to win the Belmont. Just a question, can someone tell me when the last gelding to win the Belmont was, i am genuinly curious. Lastly you have a potential super filly who dazzles with her curise control super speed. What a great year this will be.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

LDP — Mon, 25 May 2009 02:33:36 GMT

Mike,

I can see how you would say that. I said earlier on hear that a field with those two in it would likely be small. So Zen may not have to sit too far off the pace. The only thing is that she's not going agaist Hysterical Lady this time. You know i was just on youtube watching some videos of Curlin Zen and a few others. Zenyatta is a powerful mare, but no horse in my mind will compare to Culin in one video called Curlin is Iron Man, i just kept getting goose bumps every time i watched him inhale the competition. The two most moving were his dubia win and BC win in 07. I still wish he was racing this year.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

sweet terchi — Mon, 25 May 2009 02:22:09 GMT

RA may have lost some races,but they were all in the very beginning when she was learning the ropes, and the only one she finished out of the $ was her very first, a 4 1/2 f. She won the next, then placed, won, placed again all under Hernandez Jr. Borel then took over and ever since she's been a fright train roaring home. So IMO those 3 losses were under a learning curve.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

John T. — Mon, 25 May 2009 01:07:54 GMT

Yes you are so right Becky,the Alabama is for 3 year olds only.Its

just one of those races I wish was for 3 years old and up as I think it would make the race more exciting.Like you I hope a race with Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra

both in it will take place somewhere.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Mike Relva — Mon, 25 May 2009 00:48:17 GMT

TO:LDP

Good observation! But,I'm also aware of the great blazing speed that RA has. I realize that if Zenyatta were far back it would be difficult. My theory is Zenyatta wouldn't be ten,fourteen back in a race with RA.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Mike S — Mon, 25 May 2009 00:33:25 GMT

RACHEL ALEXANDRA has lost three times already, including being out of the money once. ZENYATTA has not lost yet. The only tough race that RACHEL ALEXANDRA has been in is the Preakness, which she won in awesome fashion. ZENYATTA has been in one tough race after another, and it doesn't matter what type of pace scenario unfolds in front of her ZENYATTA just inhales the whole field from the far turn to the stretch, and it has never even been close! And she has competed against some fantastic fillies and mares. If you can't see how great she is for yourself then I don't think anyone can show you.

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Skyfire — Mon, 25 May 2009 00:19:30 GMT

Zenyatta has the physical maturity and experience - older horse can beat the younger horse. Let's hope RA runs as a mature 4 year old.

I doubt that Zen's trainer/owner will run outside CA

re: Milady, Your Lady, Our Lady.....

Paula Higgins — Sun, 24 May 2009 23:17:27 GMT

You know, I understand what you are saying about MTB not getting the trip to win the Preakness and maybe he could have beaten RA. I agree. But the truth is, unless you get two horses head to head or going for it in a wide open stretch, there is no way to know for sure which one is the better horse. If RA looked MTB in the eye, or visa versa, who knows which one would have come out on top. The reality is, she won and that counts for something, and you are talking to someone who really loves MTB. So many of these races come down to factors that include things other than who is the best horse. But you still need a really good horse to win even when you factor in things like trip, weight etc. As for RA and Zenyatta, my heart says Zenyatta. I have seen enough of both horses to know they are both great in every sense of the word.