The Five-Cross Files - All Comments

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Philip G. Rynn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:24:08 GMT

I grew up in Germany, and was involved with racing there from 1969-1982, a period of time where German racing was just starting to make solid inroads into international racing, and this was also before the real "internationalization" of European racing; by 1990 (after the fall of the Berlin Wall), racing was already on the improve in Eastern Europe, and you will notice that after 1990 Group winners in every country were often running and winning all over the continent - prior to that, the majority of Group (Graded Stakes) winners in any given country typically were bred in that nation.

So, for a long time German breeding was in the hands of about a dozen breeding farms that controlled about 60-70% percent of the quality bloodstock market (Gestuht Schlenderhan and Gestuht Bona, and Gestuht Ittlingen (sp) and Gestuht Isarland readily come to mind). They were primarily breed-to-race operations; they put an emphasis on soundness, stamina, and stoutness. I say "stoutness" because racing in Germany, from the months of October through May, is usually contested on deep turf. Boggy conditions. It takes a strong horse to win in these circumstances. For that reason, Germans love big, strong gallopers. Big feet, big shoulders, pleny of height, and plenty of bone. Look at the German horses that dominate today; they all have that in common.

By and large, Germans train their horses to win at distances of a mile and an eighth to a mile and a half....that's that baseline...if they show a propensity to speed, they shorten them up, if they appear to want to go longer, they steer them towards a mile and 5/8ths and beyond, or they consider them as steeplechasers....(not talking NSA-type hurdles here....steeplechasing in Germany is over big brush fences and water jumps, similiar to France and England)...again, usually contested in the winter months, and under boggy conditions.

You won't see fractured bones and horses having complete breaksdowns in deep stretch in Germany...they do happen, but it's a rarity. What you will see are bowed tendons, and German breeders are wary of long pasterns, because in Germany it's the kiss of death; with deep turf you are going to have problems with long pasterns, and bowed tendons are much more prevalent there than in the U.S.

Bleeders are a rarity. If a horse bleeds, he is relegated to lower level racing, or retired altogether.

I have thought many times about what would happen if German blood were imported in the U.S. - would it be successful? Well, it would make for a sounder horse. But it would not make for a faster horse. At least, not for several generations; so which breeder is going to stand up and take the first step? I live in Florida, home of the "Summit of Speed". Speed is king here. Calder gears it's program to baby races, and Ocala has them going an eighth of a mile in 9 seconds and change by the time that they are 20-22 months old....so.....who's going to mate to a German stallion?.....

Running Stag was a prototypical German horse....from the Orsini line; he was very successful in the U.S. as a racehorse, but so far has failed at stud...I believe he was shipped off from Florida to Texas (?) a few years ago...my hunch is that he probably did not get the mares.

If a breeder has the pockets deep enough to endure 2-3 generations of slow but sound horses before his runners start to earn a profit, then by all means breed to a German sire...but it might take that long to be successful. We have bred for speed for so long that the U.S. thoroughbreed is going to take that long to bring back to soundness.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Clay — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:12:24 GMT

Nice discussion. I agree that training costs are sky high and this keeps horse owners on the lookout for animals that are classy enough to reach stakes company to offset these costs. Also I believe that there has been so many tracks open up in the last 20 years that there has to be an enormous influx of horses to fill races which in turn leads breeders to breed any mare thats out there regardless of soundness. It also seems that there is still not enough horses to fill races because of competition between tracks. But now that some tracks are shutting down because of costs, maybe now we can fill races with what we have. Many young horses are not selling, as evidence of recent auction activity, and this may slow down breeder greediness and put more quality horses out there. You see how the recession could actually help in this matter?

I don't like these ridiculously high prices any more than you do but I can see where we can turn the corner on this problem of quality.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

FormerFan — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:22:00 GMT

Horses that retire injured, or unsound should not be in the breeding shed, period. Most of these thoroughbred stallions that retire injured are usually horses with poor/weak confirmation. Go visit a major breeding farm one day and take a look at any of the stallions that retired with an injury. As you begin to inspect them closely it becomes more and more obvious why they broke down or injured themself in the first place.. On television its difficult to get a good look at those legs, but when you're standing right next to them the flaws and confirmation defects are so obvious, and then you think about that $100,000 stud fee and its sickening. People only care about speed, thats the important thing in this industry. Ask yourself this question, "If you were guaranteed that breeding your mare to this certain unsound stallion would produce an offspring that was so fast the world would think it was the second coming of Ruffian, yet this offspring would be so poorly conformed that just racing the animal it could break down at any time, would you still breed your mare to that stallion?

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Julie L. — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:20:03 GMT

Scott, your comments are right to the point, I agree with them 100% I have yet to read this report but I will with true gusto. On inbreeding I prefer what is called linebreeding which is basically the same thing but you adjust how far a desired individual is on each side of the pedigree, perhaps upclose on one side and further back on the other. Inbreeding is an individual who is close up on both sides. I believe that linebreeding can be useful but with inbreeding we must be very careful.

Restoring the Iron Horse

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:28:58 GMT

Blog trackback

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

sgillies — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:25:36 GMT

Rather than voicing my opinions in the blog entry, I'm going to do something I rarely do -- submit a comment to my own post. Here's what I think has led to the current situation of decreasing starts:

Commercially-driven breeding decisions: "breed-to-sell" has taken over the industry
High sale prices: good runners are more valuable in the breeding shed than on the track
Veterinary advances -- including corrective surgery: foals that once would have been culled are now allowed to train and race but the procedures set them up for future injuries
"Must-win" culture: trainers used to race their runners as often as possible; now, they avoid frequent starts and aim for high "win" percentages in fewer, more targeted entries
Track surfaces: hard, fast dirt tracks make for exciting speed but are unforgiving to the athletes
Juvenile focus: the same qualities that make Thoroughbreds precocious also make them fragile, and we're selectively breeding for these traits
Drugs: masking pain prevents horse caregivers from catching and addressing small problems; by the time the problems get big, they're career-ending
Deleterious inbreeding: I'm not convinced that inbreeding in general is part of the problem -- but when we inbreed to horses with known, severe physical flaws, we're just asking for trouble

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Clay — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:11:22 GMT

Jim, I'm trying to figure out what your argument is. Our distance races and sprints are very much equally proportioned. How can you suggest that the Breeder cup mile would be our classic? This is ridiculus. 2 mile races will never be a popular option in this country. Just try to push that idea through the race organizers and see what happens. I do like sprints and I don't think we have a big problem with fragility, I see many horses running past 8 years. People cheered Evening Attire because he is racing and winning at an older age and this says alot about his soundness. I don't mind long races sprinkled in with the sprints, its just having to wait for the excitement to kick in when they finally hit the stretch. Oh, and by the way I don't really have A.D.D., I was just trying to be lighthearted about the situation.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

b. graham — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:55:31 GMT

i would like it alot if good new blood would be injected into our lines.i still say two yr olds should not run. they should start as three yr olds and run the derby as four yr olds. i believe they would all be more sound.

re: Saving It vs. Leaving It On the Track

Firebrand — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:21:55 GMT

Actually, it was John Hay "Jock" Whitney, along with Ogden Phipps and Robert Kleberg Jr. of King Ranch who purchased the entire group of horses from Bradley's Idle Hour Farm estate.

I would definitely say Mr. Phipps came out the winner in that deal - greatly due to the daughters of La Troienne.

Hirsch and Ethel Jacobs bought Searching, a granddaughter of La Troienne, from Mr. Phipps.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Jim — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:53:17 GMT

Back on my soapbox. See what happens when speed is everything? You forget half of what you want to say. My question is what will happen to the Breeder's Cup Mile when it becomes the Classic? Will Da Hoss become a Classic winner. yes, I know I left out Miesque, but she's from Europe. She must be slow.

It's time to write longer races and attach bigger purses. Or maybe that was a chorus of boos I heard when Evening Attire crossed the finish line first in the Greenwood Cup. I'll get back to you all later; I'm not taking ADD medicine so I'm a little loose here, but speed is everything so I'll ride it out.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

lespedeeza — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:33:54 GMT

I wonder why it is more exciting to win the Kentucky Derby than the Belmont and the Arc. The horse that wins the Belmont and the Arc is the best horse in the world....

Scot's reply: My goal as a Thoroughbred breeder is to produce a Belmont winner. The Derby is the most important race in the world, but the Belmont separates the good from the great.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

lespedeeza — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:31:56 GMT

I would send every mare in my band to him. The dams of the foals I liked would be sent back to him. The dams of the foals who were good racehorses would be sent back to him. Its about time American breeders stopped whining about unsoundness and fixed their thought process on pedigrees and product.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Jim — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:18:43 GMT

I don't want to be a jerk, but who are these "racing enthusiasts". They don't seem to truly be horse enthusiasts. Many are bettors. What do the really care of one-fifth of a second? They still apply their craft. Damn history and records, we need to worry about the future. We don't need horses that snap like peanut brittle. Speed? Give these guys a slower burning cigarette and a longer drawing beer and they'll be happy.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Charles — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:26:19 GMT

I'm in agreement with all the previous posters who favor the introduction of new breeding lines intended to improve the soundness and stamina of the American throroughbred. However, I don't agree with the opinion that most U.S. runners REQUIRE bute, lasix, etc. in order to be successful on the racetrack. On the opening day of Royal Ascot several weeks ago, 4 of the top 5 finishers in the St. James Palace Stakes were bred in the U.S. None of whom raced with the aforementioned medications. While I agree that increasing the diversity of American breeding lines should be a goal for all conscientious breeders, let's not forget the amazing success that our industry continues to achieve.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Maggie — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:19:03 GMT

That's a great point, Cheryl. Why would you want to race a horse that is prone to such things? That would cause more accidents waiting to happen. Thank you for your input. We need a European's perspective of things.