Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Rscarbro — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 03:54:32 GMT

Need help. Have this one guy who claims Secretariat immature sperm they found before he started his stud service was due by overdose of drugs given him. I do know he is a Citation lover & a Secretariat hater but like to throw back at him some fact it was not so. Can anyone here can give me some soild fact that he did not. Thanks so much.

It's International Night at Fasig-Tipton Saratoga

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:06:44 GMT

Bernardini's big numbers might steal the headlines, but rare appearances by sires from Germany and Australia are worth a second look.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Alfonso — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:56:29 GMT

Dear american friends,

I am writting from Spain (excuse me for the spelling). I find very interesting this post, as ir is something that in the past worked wonderfully with Princequillo in the US. The well tempered and late maturing Princequillo, gave soundness and stamina to other american lines.

About Monsun I can say that he is the best. He has an average Earning index that doubles his comparable index. He has thrown group winners from mares that were neither stakes winners nor have produced them.

But you also have sound horses them, the problem is that they are not commercial enough. Before Barbaro, Dynaformer was not very much appreciated given his numbers. Dynaformer is a very good and sound stallion. Here in Spain, our best freshman sire has been Baptize, and he is giving bery tough performers. And he has Storm Cat in the pedigree, who is in my opinion the one that is causing in the US so weak performers. But his sons give precocity so they are massively used.

The problem is that the industry needs horses that race early so that the owners don't have to pay many months without enjoying the races. Too much speed and too much early maturing doesn't develop the thoroughbreds into better athletes but into more precocius.

Manduro is a good example. He needed some time to mature, but once he did, he became by far the best horse in Europe. A horse that was capable of winning a Grade1 both in 8f and in 12f. He is really a horse that can improve the thoroughbreds, because once he matured he was a superstar. But, would he have chances?

But don't think that the problem exists only in the US. Part of the improvement of the German breeding comes from the fact that in england and Ireland, studs are very concentrated and driven by Coolmore, Darley and Juddmonte. Only few bloodlines are tried and a good example is the Epsom derby winner Kris Kin who is being used as a national hunt stallion. He won the race with the third best time ever. Mad.

Anyway, better than Kamsin, I would think in Samums own brother Schiaparelli, as he is a son of Monsun and full brother also to Salve Regina (G1 winner).

I have seen some foals from the Irish Derby runner up Gentlewave (Monsun) to Dylan Thomas, and they look superb.

Regards

U.S. Stallion With German Pedigree Influences and Sharp First Crops -- $3,000 Live Foal

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:55:25 GMT

This stallion's early AEI ratings put him in with some lofty company. Combine his rare sire line with unusual German bloodline influences on the dam side and this is a stallion whose pedigree is worth a closer review.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

horseofcourse — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 19:02:02 GMT

I agree with you completely. The other benefit of late-maturing horses is that they are not sent away to stud or broodmare service after their three-year-old season is finished. How else do you explain the popularity of such horses as John Henry and Curlin? The fact that the fans were able to see these two race and show their amazing abilities.

One thing though, I don't think it's the fans who want to see two-year-olds racing...Can I control what races are scheduled at any given track? I think it's the money; the potential for huge returns. The fact that horse racing is a business, and a sector of the economies that support thousands of people, cannot be ignored. And yet, I wonder if, within that business framework, there is another approach to things.

German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

The Five-Cross Files — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 04:08:48 GMT

The German racehorse sire line of Monsun already has a foothold in Ireland. Would a Kamsin victory in the 2009 Breeders' Cup Classic be enough for American breeders to welcome him to a U.S. stud career?

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Gunfighter — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:22:15 GMT

To Clay:

One reson for countrys like Germany not needing LAXIS is that they don't allow BUTE (witch is a bloodthinner just like asperin) and they don't concider a horse that bleeds to be fit to racing, some bleeders are given time off, up to 6-7 months after bleeding before resuming racing or they are reteired all toghether.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Philip G. Rynn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:24:08 GMT

I grew up in Germany, and was involved with racing there from 1969-1982, a period of time where German racing was just starting to make solid inroads into international racing, and this was also before the real "internationalization" of European racing; by 1990 (after the fall of the Berlin Wall), racing was already on the improve in Eastern Europe, and you will notice that after 1990 Group winners in every country were often running and winning all over the continent - prior to that, the majority of Group (Graded Stakes) winners in any given country typically were bred in that nation.

So, for a long time German breeding was in the hands of about a dozen breeding farms that controlled about 60-70% percent of the quality bloodstock market (Gestuht Schlenderhan and Gestuht Bona, and Gestuht Ittlingen (sp) and Gestuht Isarland readily come to mind). They were primarily breed-to-race operations; they put an emphasis on soundness, stamina, and stoutness. I say "stoutness" because racing in Germany, from the months of October through May, is usually contested on deep turf. Boggy conditions. It takes a strong horse to win in these circumstances. For that reason, Germans love big, strong gallopers. Big feet, big shoulders, pleny of height, and plenty of bone. Look at the German horses that dominate today; they all have that in common.

By and large, Germans train their horses to win at distances of a mile and an eighth to a mile and a half....that's that baseline...if they show a propensity to speed, they shorten them up, if they appear to want to go longer, they steer them towards a mile and 5/8ths and beyond, or they consider them as steeplechasers....(not talking NSA-type hurdles here....steeplechasing in Germany is over big brush fences and water jumps, similiar to France and England)...again, usually contested in the winter months, and under boggy conditions.

You won't see fractured bones and horses having complete breaksdowns in deep stretch in Germany...they do happen, but it's a rarity. What you will see are bowed tendons, and German breeders are wary of long pasterns, because in Germany it's the kiss of death; with deep turf you are going to have problems with long pasterns, and bowed tendons are much more prevalent there than in the U.S.

Bleeders are a rarity. If a horse bleeds, he is relegated to lower level racing, or retired altogether.

I have thought many times about what would happen if German blood were imported in the U.S. - would it be successful? Well, it would make for a sounder horse. But it would not make for a faster horse. At least, not for several generations; so which breeder is going to stand up and take the first step? I live in Florida, home of the "Summit of Speed". Speed is king here. Calder gears it's program to baby races, and Ocala has them going an eighth of a mile in 9 seconds and change by the time that they are 20-22 months old....so.....who's going to mate to a German stallion?.....

Running Stag was a prototypical German horse....from the Orsini line; he was very successful in the U.S. as a racehorse, but so far has failed at stud...I believe he was shipped off from Florida to Texas (?) a few years ago...my hunch is that he probably did not get the mares.

If a breeder has the pockets deep enough to endure 2-3 generations of slow but sound horses before his runners start to earn a profit, then by all means breed to a German sire...but it might take that long to be successful. We have bred for speed for so long that the U.S. thoroughbreed is going to take that long to bring back to soundness.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Clay — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:11:22 GMT

Jim, I'm trying to figure out what your argument is. Our distance races and sprints are very much equally proportioned. How can you suggest that the Breeder cup mile would be our classic? This is ridiculus. 2 mile races will never be a popular option in this country. Just try to push that idea through the race organizers and see what happens. I do like sprints and I don't think we have a big problem with fragility, I see many horses running past 8 years. People cheered Evening Attire because he is racing and winning at an older age and this says alot about his soundness. I don't mind long races sprinkled in with the sprints, its just having to wait for the excitement to kick in when they finally hit the stretch. Oh, and by the way I don't really have A.D.D., I was just trying to be lighthearted about the situation.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

b. graham — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:55:31 GMT

i would like it alot if good new blood would be injected into our lines.i still say two yr olds should not run. they should start as three yr olds and run the derby as four yr olds. i believe they would all be more sound.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Jim — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:53:17 GMT

Back on my soapbox. See what happens when speed is everything? You forget half of what you want to say. My question is what will happen to the Breeder's Cup Mile when it becomes the Classic? Will Da Hoss become a Classic winner. yes, I know I left out Miesque, but she's from Europe. She must be slow.

It's time to write longer races and attach bigger purses. Or maybe that was a chorus of boos I heard when Evening Attire crossed the finish line first in the Greenwood Cup. I'll get back to you all later; I'm not taking ADD medicine so I'm a little loose here, but speed is everything so I'll ride it out.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

lespedeeza — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:33:54 GMT

I wonder why it is more exciting to win the Kentucky Derby than the Belmont and the Arc. The horse that wins the Belmont and the Arc is the best horse in the world....

Scot's reply: My goal as a Thoroughbred breeder is to produce a Belmont winner. The Derby is the most important race in the world, but the Belmont separates the good from the great.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

lespedeeza — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:31:56 GMT

I would send every mare in my band to him. The dams of the foals I liked would be sent back to him. The dams of the foals who were good racehorses would be sent back to him. Its about time American breeders stopped whining about unsoundness and fixed their thought process on pedigrees and product.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Jim — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:18:43 GMT

I don't want to be a jerk, but who are these "racing enthusiasts". They don't seem to truly be horse enthusiasts. Many are bettors. What do the really care of one-fifth of a second? They still apply their craft. Damn history and records, we need to worry about the future. We don't need horses that snap like peanut brittle. Speed? Give these guys a slower burning cigarette and a longer drawing beer and they'll be happy.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Charles — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:26:19 GMT

I'm in agreement with all the previous posters who favor the introduction of new breeding lines intended to improve the soundness and stamina of the American throroughbred. However, I don't agree with the opinion that most U.S. runners REQUIRE bute, lasix, etc. in order to be successful on the racetrack. On the opening day of Royal Ascot several weeks ago, 4 of the top 5 finishers in the St. James Palace Stakes were bred in the U.S. None of whom raced with the aforementioned medications. While I agree that increasing the diversity of American breeding lines should be a goal for all conscientious breeders, let's not forget the amazing success that our industry continues to achieve.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Maggie — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:19:03 GMT

That's a great point, Cheryl. Why would you want to race a horse that is prone to such things? That would cause more accidents waiting to happen. Thank you for your input. We need a European's perspective of things.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Cheryl, England — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:26:12 GMT

In answer to the question about what happens to horses that bleed - the short version is they don't race! Why would you continue to race a horse that is prone to bleeding, and why on earth would you want to breed from such a horse.

The German regulations have resulted in some great horses coming out of a country with a comparatively small breeding/racing industry - Monsun, Tiger Hill, Lomitas, Kazzia to name a few.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Stephanie — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:42:03 GMT

Why do 90% of US horses REQUIRE Lasix and only 10-15% of Ire/UK/GER/JP/SaF/etc have to come to the US?? I guess to look positively-the forign bleeders have a place to go....

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Clay — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:58:26 GMT

I have a question. If no anti bleeder medication is accepted in Germany, what do they do with horses that prolificly bleed in races? Do horses that bleed once in a race bleed in every race? I know that trainers start their horses on Lasix even when they don't need it as a "just in case scenario". As for this German bloodline we are talkin about, could be a good idea but with just one horse in the mix I don't see this as making much of a difference. We need a farm over here to make a commitment to buy dozens of these horses and try to thin this fragile line out. On the other hand, this line we have now is geared to American tastes. We love sprint races (Summit of Speed at Calder!) and even our most popular sports, football and basketball and even baseball require sprinter speed. We are the best in track and feild sprints, but not soccer because its slow and boring. Face it, most Americans

want instant gratification and sprints live up to that. Its a shame that a horse breakes down, I hate it, but this has been happening since the beginning of horse racing. And I'm not sure that European horses are bred more soundly than American horses. But anyway, I need sprint races to counteract my attention deficit disorder.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Maggie — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:07:13 GMT

Oh, and since not very many people appreciate Secretariat's effectiveness in the breeding shed, he did also produce Risen Star, not as close but able to win the Belmont in the same type of fashion as his daddy. Secretariat carried the type of broodmare sire gene as his dam's sire, Princequillo. He too was just as important to the breeding shed by producing good quality broodmares. Look at the results Secretariat got as a broodmare sire: A. P. Indy, Storm Cat, etc. We wouldn't get the kind of powerhouse stallions like those without Secretariat being a most influential broodmare sire. Broodmare sires are just as important as stallions who produce excellent progeny.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Maggie — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:02:53 GMT

Thank you Cgriff for standing up for Secretariat. I didn't know how I would and could do that because I was born about a year before his tragic death. To put in a bit more support for you, I remember reading in William Nack's book on Big Red that that was in the era where horses were bieng caught with drugs in their systems, and that Secretariat helped redefine the role that he did it all on his own. Not only did Secretariat come at a trying time for America (Post-Vietnam and Watergate), but also a time in horse racing where scandals erupted in the news with regards to drugs. Big Red came with no baggage, with no scandal, but only with the strength of his heart.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

VP — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:16:08 GMT

Until you ban lasix, bute, & steroids. I don't think most breeders will be interested in a stallion like this. Most U.S. dirt horses with any racing merit are retired at the end of their 3 yr old campaign. They make more money in the breeding shed then on the track. Over the years we have shortened race distances and created artificial surfaces to accommodate the weaknesses in our American bred horses. Outcross stallions with those types of qualities are needed to put vigor & conformation back in our bloodlines, but unless something changes, I don't see most of them being well received. By adding new blood, you may just get an animal with the speed, stamina, & stature needed to take on the Triple Crown & win.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Cgriff — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:54:28 GMT

Gee - a horse that's a proven sire of stamina and endurance PLUS a complete outcross to the major bloodlines in America - what's NOT to love about that! I'd breed a cross section of mares - light, speedy types as well as more classic types and see what works best. I remember that Lady's Secret was the result of breeding Secretariat to a fast little known mare with no classic distance ability. After years of breeding to a majority of classic mares with very mixed results - he hit one out of the park when bred to basically a cheap sprinter. Who would have guessed the Gray Lady would have resulted?

Speaking of Secretariat - Rose - you are incorrect in your information - I have it from the direct connections that Secretariat did NOT run on any sort of drug. He was pinfired early in his two year old year - but he did not receive injections outside of what was required based on illness. The rumors about Secretariat and drugs have been around for years - so I'm not surprised you read it somewhere -but it is not true. Just that simple. Sometimes - greatness is just that - a natural greatness. Hard to fathom in today's world where both Curlin and Big Brown receive Winstrol to enhance their physique and overall attitude.

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Cgriff — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:54:27 GMT

re: Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

Catherine — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:46:01 GMT

I for one would welcome Kamsin in the United States. Speed is okay and good, but I like the distance runners more than I like the sprinters. Races longer than 1 1/4 miles appeal to me more than anything else, and bloodlines that promise staying power and DURABILITY are 100x more appealing than anything else available in the United States.

I say we bring him over and stand him as a stallion. The infusion of new blood will strengthen the already-too-weak bloodlines we have here.