Restoring the Iron Horse

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Restoring the Iron Horse - The Five-Cross Files

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Chris — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:53:57 GMT

Has anyone broken down the #'s in a Turf runner vs. Dirt runner kind of way ???

Because my own opinion is that possibly, just possibly we are missing something here in regards to our horses genetics. And it's basically that the turf bred horses are more sound than the dirt bred ones. Especially after generation after generation of turf breeding vs. generation after generation of dirt breeding.

Now I know that this might already be a given to anyone more experienced than myself. And proof of that might be in the fact that we are finally changing our surfaces to the modern synthetics, but I don't remember anyone mentioning this anywhere else yet as a possible factor. Make any sense cause i'm not too good at writing my thoughts ???

And also...whatever happened to the idea of "Importing" a good European sire like in the old days with Ribot or Nasrullah ??? If my memory is correct on these 2 being imported ???

We seem to be very good at "Exporting" our future good sires like Sunday Silence and Forty Niner or even shuttleing many of them down under these days, but what happened to importing a good one or two to help "Re-Strengthen" the American breed ???

Just something to think about !!!

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

ben — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:27:10 GMT

just to say, in the uk we aren't lucky enough to have these informative websites

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Ray Whelihan — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:59:32 GMT

Yes, I will be taping the seminar in equine genetics and posting it.I believe I can produce a dvd and send them to anyone interested fairly inexpensively. Please watch the web site, www.cobleskill.edu for further details.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Firebrand — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:59:13 GMT

Mr. Whelihan,

Can the "Topic in Genetics" seminar be taped and posted on the internet so that those of us who are very interested, but unable to attend, can hear what the researchers have to say? Please?

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Ray Whelihan — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:55:52 GMT

Experts in the taped forum mentioned lack of genetic diversity, affects of inbreeding and outcrossing, and the need for focused research. The Thoroughbred Management Program at the State University of NY at Cobleskill is conducting a seminar in Saratoga at the Racing Museum on August 26th titled 'Topics In Genetics'. Researchers from Cornell, University of Kentucky and Texas A&M will be speaking on equine genome advancements and the effect of large stallion book size. Please consider attending. www.cobleskill.edu

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Ramzi Abuhaidar — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:51:36 GMT

My Feeling is this, since I was a thourghbred owner for a brief time.We have gotten so anamoured with the beauty side of the thourghbred and money hungry that we have forgotten what they were bred to do which is run beauty does not mean durability. we go back and look at how much all the great sires sold for twenty to fourty years ago even though that was a long time ago, owners were more concerned about what a horse could do on the track not in the sales ring,that is the real problem today. lets start breeding horses that can run again and not worry about how pretty thay are who cares as long as thy can functionaly run.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Rachel — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:00:48 GMT

Scott, ditto 100%. plus the rigors and "stuff" to get the 2 year olds to the sales is awful on them...2 year old babies should not have to display 4 year old precociousness on the track for the sales ring.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Racingfan — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:24:47 GMT

Scott, I agree with the majority of your post. But I would like to add that I think a major problem at this time is that there are too many assumptions floating around. For example, when looking at average starts per runner, how do we know that is has gone down due to unsoundness? They only way to know would be to look at the "reason" why each runner was retired. Just looking at the decrease leads one to "assume" that it was due to an injury, but each individual case would have to be examined to know for sure and I highly doubt anyone has spent the time to do that. It is just as likely that the decrease is due to the fact that trainers no longer run the horses every week or two to three times a month because they

have thankfully learned that it is detrimental to them. I am very interested in the old time race horses and racing families, etc so I collect old Bloodhorse magazines and books that have the stories about the old runners in them. I can tell you from reading all these things that they are full of articles/stories about horses that were being retired due to injuries. It happened very frequently and back then there were not nearly as many horses racing. The statistic we need to see is what percentage of horses racing today breakdown as compared to the percentages in days gone by. I for one expect that figure hasn't changed all that much. As far as inbreeding, I have read a lot about it and the indications are that desirable qualities are generally largely multiplied while

defects are minimized-Federico Tesio has a great explanation of breeding in his book and reminds us also that all Thoroughbreds are descended from four stallions-one whose line has died out. I would like to point out another assumption I read about all the time and that is that today's horses can't hold up to the racing schedule of those in the past. We know that why...? Today's two year olds aren't being asked to run 10-15-20 times, nor are the three year olds or the older horses. So how do we "know" they can't do it if it isn't being attempted? I'm glad it isn't happening but it is again another huge assumption in my opinion. Lastly I wonder if there has ever been a time when breeders were not breeding for speed - after all isn't it the fastest horse that wins the race?

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

HS — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:05:01 GMT

Something I've not seen mentioned--cost of owning, training, and running a horse. If the economics of racing are against running a horse, well, you don't run the horse.

Let's say I bought the mythical average-priced sales yearling (just a hair under $20,000) for Out of Place last year in September--he's a nice, solid breed-to-race horse who is known for putting out sound, honest runners. If you board your horse for $500/month until March, then send it for breaking and training for 6 months at $500/mo board plus $500/mo training fee (again, nice round numbers which may or may not have anything to do with reality), plus $2000 for vet, farrier, and miscellaneous expenses, you start out $31,000 in the hole before your horse even makes it to the gate.

Out of Place's median earnings are $32,000 per runner.

You get him into training, and figure out pretty quickly that he's not going to be MSW at Belmont or Saratoga potential--that's fine, there are other tracks, and after 4 months of training and vet bills and a gelding surgery, he breaks his maiden in a cheap weekday claimer at Laurel Park, you got a picture and a nice $10,000 win purse. Okay, now you're only $25,000 in the hole...and so it goes.

How long before it's just not economically viable to race this horse? Especially when a decently-bred, scopey Out of Place will get you a couple of thousand as a jumper? It's not as much as if he were a good racer, but it's stopping the bleeding.

The report needs to address what the relative cost-to-earnings potential a similarly bred little gelding would have had in 1978 (feed, board, training, vet, farrier, trailering, etc) versus the same horse today. My observation is that if a horse isn't getting the job done, it doesn't race any longer because it makes no economic sense. He could be the soundest horse in the world and it wouldn't make a difference.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Bellwether — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:45:28 GMT

does any one realize 80% of today's trainer's don't have a clue???...make it tougher to get a training lic.@ all track's in the U.S...LLTK!!!

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Clay — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:12:24 GMT

Nice discussion. I agree that training costs are sky high and this keeps horse owners on the lookout for animals that are classy enough to reach stakes company to offset these costs. Also I believe that there has been so many tracks open up in the last 20 years that there has to be an enormous influx of horses to fill races which in turn leads breeders to breed any mare thats out there regardless of soundness. It also seems that there is still not enough horses to fill races because of competition between tracks. But now that some tracks are shutting down because of costs, maybe now we can fill races with what we have. Many young horses are not selling, as evidence of recent auction activity, and this may slow down breeder greediness and put more quality horses out there. You see how the recession could actually help in this matter?

I don't like these ridiculously high prices any more than you do but I can see where we can turn the corner on this problem of quality.

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

FormerFan — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:22:00 GMT

Horses that retire injured, or unsound should not be in the breeding shed, period. Most of these thoroughbred stallions that retire injured are usually horses with poor/weak confirmation. Go visit a major breeding farm one day and take a look at any of the stallions that retired with an injury. As you begin to inspect them closely it becomes more and more obvious why they broke down or injured themself in the first place.. On television its difficult to get a good look at those legs, but when you're standing right next to them the flaws and confirmation defects are so obvious, and then you think about that $100,000 stud fee and its sickening. People only care about speed, thats the important thing in this industry. Ask yourself this question, "If you were guaranteed that breeding your mare to this certain unsound stallion would produce an offspring that was so fast the world would think it was the second coming of Ruffian, yet this offspring would be so poorly conformed that just racing the animal it could break down at any time, would you still breed your mare to that stallion?

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

Julie L. — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:20:03 GMT

Scott, your comments are right to the point, I agree with them 100% I have yet to read this report but I will with true gusto. On inbreeding I prefer what is called linebreeding which is basically the same thing but you adjust how far a desired individual is on each side of the pedigree, perhaps upclose on one side and further back on the other. Inbreeding is an individual who is close up on both sides. I believe that linebreeding can be useful but with inbreeding we must be very careful.

Restoring the Iron Horse

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:28:58 GMT

Blog trackback

re: Restoring the Iron Horse

sgillies — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:25:36 GMT

Rather than voicing my opinions in the blog entry, I'm going to do something I rarely do -- submit a comment to my own post. Here's what I think has led to the current situation of decreasing starts:

Commercially-driven breeding decisions: "breed-to-sell" has taken over the industry
High sale prices: good runners are more valuable in the breeding shed than on the track
Veterinary advances -- including corrective surgery: foals that once would have been culled are now allowed to train and race but the procedures set them up for future injuries
"Must-win" culture: trainers used to race their runners as often as possible; now, they avoid frequent starts and aim for high "win" percentages in fewer, more targeted entries
Track surfaces: hard, fast dirt tracks make for exciting speed but are unforgiving to the athletes
Juvenile focus: the same qualities that make Thoroughbreds precocious also make them fragile, and we're selectively breeding for these traits
Drugs: masking pain prevents horse caregivers from catching and addressing small problems; by the time the problems get big, they're career-ending
Deleterious inbreeding: I'm not convinced that inbreeding in general is part of the problem -- but when we inbreed to horses with known, severe physical flaws, we're just asking for trouble