Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

dennis penner — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:36:12 GMT

i have trained a few race horses over the years all i know is the hot temperd ones definitely make more mistakes on the track when racing. a level head goes a long way on race day

All in the Attitude

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All in the Attitude

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re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

JordanA — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:07:40 GMT

Bad leg keeping me up and waiting for the next Earthquake.

Sopiekea, you were discussing intelligence and class not temperment. I referenced a BH article in which Lukas and Blasi basically said it's trainability and learning by repititon and also personality. They and all of the other race horse trainers I have read about or heard speak say the same thing. I'll take the word of Wayne Lukas over a non trainer any day. And you know I bet if you ask a RACE HORSE TRAINER, they could probably tell you that they do have input as to whether the horse is a biter. Any trainer worth their day rate will try their darnednest to break them of that bad habit and my guess is if it interferes with them running and winning races, that horse won't be in the barn for long. I said on here I'm a handicapper but I still know a lot of trainers and owners and listen when they speak.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

sophiekea — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:08:42 GMT

I agree that trainers are very important but we are talking temperment here. A trainer doesnt decide if the horse is going to be a lover or a biter, thats the horses decision mostly. I've seen some nasty horses win big and some sweet ones too. But temperment has nothing to do with intelligence or class. Cost of the horse isn't a factor either in determining class. A nice horse is much more enjoyable to work with but that doesn't mean he is going to make anymore money than the bad tempered horse. Its just about what they do when they hit the track. And crazy fired up doesn't mean that it has more of a competitive winning attitude.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

JordanA — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:08:29 GMT

Sorry for the misspells, took something for the fractured leg and kidced in too soon.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

JordanA — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:02:27 GMT

Schabelli, I thanked jmewill for his support on the non horse racing input, BUT I AGREE with you on Big Brown and the shoe, even Iavarone has backed off on that and Dutrow and Kent never agreed in the first place. Of course this was addressed ad nauseum on Jason's blogs. Sophiekea, I agree with you somewhat but a lot of the big name trainers say horses have personality and trainability like Katsan said. Scott Blasi and Wayne Lukas were both quoted in an article on the blood horse Mr. Ed I think it was and Wayne said something to the effect of there isn't a lot of dumb horses but a lot of dumb people (not an exact quote but you can search for it) his and Blasi's theory being it depends on who worked with them before the got to them how well they do. Blasi was big on the personality factor just like a lot of horesemen I've listened to.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

sophiekea — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:12:29 GMT

I think class and intelligence can tell you more about the potential a horse has at making money at the track. If the horse knows when its time to work thats a good thing.

I know a horse that is so laid back you wouldn't think he could do much, but get him to the track and he is a professional winner. No problem in the paddock, gate, etc...

Like many athletes sometimes the loud mouth big talker isn't the winner. Its the intelligent one that lets his work do the talking that gets it done.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

schabelli — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:37:37 GMT

jmewill,

There was no nail "stabbing" Brownie in the foot in the Belmont. He came back with no soreness in the foot whatsoever. A close examination revealed no physical problems at all.

The fact of the matter is that Brownie broke out into the 2 horse and caused the shoe problem for himself anyway. His inexperience and timid nature caused him to spook at the start. In all previous races he had everything go his way from the time they opened the gates until the race was over. A starter on the track is not uncommon, I have seen many a low class claimer who didn't spook in the same situation.

All the problems Brownie encountered in the Belmont were of his own making. Kent D. took alot of flack for "his ride" when in reality he did a great job of trying to control a horse who clearly was having an off day.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Alan — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:09:55 GMT

My background is having trained wild and domestic mammals for the entertainment industry. Temperment is decided by both environmental stimuli and genetics, both breed/species related and (recent)ancestry (and realize that individuals in a litter, and full siblings among hoofed animals may dramatically vary as to characteristics of aggression, timidity, and a range of social or anti-social behaviors.

A racehorse is not raised to become a pet, companion, or film star (a Trigger or Champion, for examples), so a disposition that is amenable to training, retains what is taught, and can be safely controlled or handled by humans are the fundemental requirements.

Understand that the police and military will not accept vicious or overly aggressive German Shepards for guard and attack work--the ideal temperment for training acceptance for these demanding jobs, is a happy, rock-solid, afraid-of-nothing type animal that would be the perfect companion and family pet.

Substandard temperment in racehorses is accepted because winning races overides all other considerations--hence the number of neurotic thoroughbreds in the racing game.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Obmar — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:26:11 GMT

Tesio believed that quick or even bad temper is often allied to racing

ability, as in the case of St. Simon. But when it is an expression of

lack of courage, it should of course be avoided. In any case, he preferred

nervous energy to sheer strength as an ingredient of championship ability. He believed that a horse’s racing ability is the direct result of inherited

nervous energy, and that the energy pattern follows a cycle over several

generations, rising to a peak, then falling, and then remaining dormant

for a period before beginning to rise again.

Untrainable as a Whole Horse

Dr. John Lee gelded five-time Horse of the Year Kelso when he was training him as a two-year-old. That has been well known for years. Carl Hanford, who took over Kelso’s training at three, told me at Aiken, South Carolina, one winter that he never would have been able to train him as an entire horse:

“Watch him, he’s coming on the track right now, and he throws these numbers at you as a gelding.”

We were leaning on the outside rail and, as exercise rider Dickie Jenkins moved him out of a trot, “Kelly” propped and buck-jumped for a quarter-mile before leveling off into a smooth gallop.

A Terror in His Stall

It took me more than a decade to find out who cut John Henry, the two-lime Horse of the Year While he was in my office one day, asked Dr. Alex Harthill in jest “Is it true you gelded John Henry?” “Yes,” he replied defen sively, “and he needed it worse than any horse I've ever seen. He was a holy terror in his stall—would eat you alive, walk around his stall on his hind legs like a dog, and hang his front legs over his stall screen. Do every common thing he could to threaten you or hurt you. You’d never have heard of him if he hadn’t been gelded.”

Just a few example.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

jmewill — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:40:50 GMT

to Schabelli:

Are you certain Big Brown's Shoe hanging of his hind foot might have had a tiny bit to do with his undoing in the Belmont? You try runnin with a nail stabbing you in the foot for a mile and a half and let me know how that works out for ya????

to Jordan A: I am not putting them down but I think alot of them don't understand some of the aspects of the racing game and I won't pretend to be an expert on their turf.

Mr. Ed said it best"A HORSE IS A HORSE OF COURSE..." UNLESS IT'S A RACE HORSE. I don't think in their racing state you could get many race horses around a show ring without any problems(without being retrained to do it of course) but the showe horses that will run b*lls out for a mile are most likely few and far between.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

JordanA — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:06:33 GMT

jmewill, thanks for the support but I see the eventers, drafters, shower's, rescuers are just as obstinate as the horses they're talking about. I miss the old trainer that used to post and a couple of the owners. I think we have maybe one or two racetrackers now.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

JordanA — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:05:04 GMT

Lance, I have a friend who was at the sale when The Green Monkey was purchased. He had a superfast work under tack then it became a p***ing

contest between the head Dubi and the Demi. Notice Coolmore wasn't at FT since the Dubi's bought it? Just a bit of a feud going there according to the rumor mill.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

katsan — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:55:01 GMT

Bellweather, have you taken the trainers test?

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

katsan — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:26:15 GMT

We had this one very nice claiming horse who won the Claimer of the Year back in the way back. Around 64. He bit everybody except my Mom, who though raised on a ranch is not a horse fan. Anyway, he would pin her up against the stall door expecting her to pet him and feed him treats. Never even tried to bite her. Wasn't hot tempered, was a gelding but had an odd personality. As far as Red and Slew. They weren't hot tempered from what I heard, but they were studs so therefore the studish behavior, explains a lot of the behaviors of the horses talked about here, the Alpha male and females. I can think of one recent TC runner who was so hot tempered and obstinate that as I said before the trainer treatened to geld him. The fillies and mares can get temperamental when they are in season. We have a hot tempered filly, just like her dam, grand dam etc. Nobody wants to do anything with her because she will kick, bite and try to savage you but is just a yearling, has the wild eye too. Royally bred but calling out the big guns my 6'4 horseman brother in law.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Catherine — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:20:26 GMT

Temperament and ability (aka talent) have nothing in common. A bad temper does not a stakes winner make.

If temperament indicated racing ability, mean SOB's like Dynaformer (don't get me wrong, I love that boy) would have a Grade 1 victory for every time they bit, nipped, or attempted to bite someone.

Look at some of the sweethearts: Seabiscuit, Unbridled, Gato Del Sol, Runaway Groom, Affirmed, and Slew o' Gold. They weren't plodders by any stretch of the imagination. All of them were Grade 1 winners.

There seems to be a misconception that Secretariat and Slew were gentle boys. They weren't. I've heard people say things about both of them that aren't the pretty picture racing's always painted.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

schabelli — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:46:17 GMT

Temperment reveals alot about a horse. Look at Big Brown, he's not an agressive animal and it shows on the track. Confronted with a little adversity in a race he got crushed. Who would have guessed he would be so timid when faced with a little trouble. Now look at Curlin, he's a tiger and would eat Big Brown alive if Brownies connections would quit ducking him.

It's no wonder wherever Curlin goes Big Brown is nowhere to be found except racing against this years pathetic class of 3 yr. olds.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

jmewill — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:36:56 GMT

Thank You Jordan A. well put, racing aint no dog and pony show.

John Henry was world renowned for being meaner then anyone else and I know for a fact only his rider and groom ever touched him on the track. I visited the Whittingham barn one afternoon and While I was talking to someone the hood of my sweatshirt became lodged in the mouth of a horse who was pulling rather insistantly to get me into the stall and when I finally broke free(which took some time) I turned and was face to face with the great Ferdinand. Some horses @the track are truly mean, but most I think are just feeling good and "playing". Don't forget when a horse is in a natural setting(wild or in a herd) they play by doing things that humans would mistake for being mean or nasty, they bite each other, kick, ect... Some lines do hold the possibility for bad temperment though. I had a half brother to J O Tobin(who was considered to be rank and nasty) and during his career, Beau Monde(my beloved friend)killed a horse on a flight, bit someone's thumb off, broke a hotwalkers arm in three places, picked his groom up by the middle of the back held him in the air and shook him like a rag doll, and bit my in the chest so hard that I could feel the blood running down my shirt. It is fair to say I WAS NOT paying attention when I got bit and the thumb and arm incidents could have been avoided had those victims been more careful around the horse. PS we never did recover the thumb although the stall was stripped and searched... I loved that horse and I used to walk him every day and he followed behind me like a puppy dog all around the backside at Santa Anita. Oh and the n one time he was running at Hollywood and had a great chance to win the race, until Lafit Pincay came up next to him anad he turned his head and tried to bite Lafit's leg. He came back after the race and told the trainer"That horse is crazy, He try to bite my leg off!!" I am sure it is something Lafit looks back on and laughs now , but he was mad at the time!

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

FormerFan — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:31:20 GMT

Temperment haS NOTHING to do with the way they will perform on the track or in the showring. I have had both, hot tempered and mild tempered, and it makes no difference. The thing I have noticed between the two temperments is that, of course, the more mild tempered horses are easier to work with and train. The hot tempered horses need to be worked hard daily or they will kill you in the barn if you don't. I had a hot tempered thoroughbred I rode in jumper classes and before a show I would have to get up around 3am to start taking the edge off him so when my class came up at 9am he would be ridable, and I literally had to work the living you know what out of him just so he wouldn't run through a fence at the show. But the more mild tempered horse I had was no problem before a horse show or any other event, just saddle him and go, and he performed just as good or better than the hot tempered lunatic I had. The hot tempered ones IMO, are the ones that will kill themselves out there, the milder ones are more careful about what they do, whether this has anything to do with intelligence I don't know. Makes no difference in performance though.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Tom — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:01:47 GMT

A lot of it depends on how much drugs they're on as well...

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Rachel — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:42:38 GMT

Duh, I forgot to finish my thought before I submitted my comments...I do tend to think independent, stronger-minded animals perform/work better on the average, but extreme strong mindedness can get in the way of training...I guess in a race horse as long as you can point them in the right direction and hang on ;-) it's ok! Seriously, though, too hot-headed & they won't work with the jockey...brilliance is great as long as you can hold on until the finish line.

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

lance guranovich — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:18:42 GMT

i believe that goodwin said it the best and to the point. there is no magic formula!

thoroughbreds are bred to run and everything after that fact is an intangible. conformation, physiology, temperment, etc. all come in to play, but i once read an article about breeding and the possibility that going less than 3x3 could produce a champion or an idiot. i agree with that.

mr.prospecter had a full brother in red ryder and i am sure that we have numerous examples of full siblings not achieving a thing when their brother or sister was a champion. same genes! were the pastures poor one year and lush the year the champion was foaled? who knows?

i have not had the volume of experience in raising thoroughbreds that many of you have had, but i had seven foals in five years by six different stallions. au point, bounding basque, cassaleria, superbity, garthorn and black tie affair.

they all were good race horses with an eclipse award winner thrown in for good measure. au point was by lyphard. i saw lyphard at gainesway and actually gave him chewing tobacco, which he loved. this was a small family line, but very robust.

the two foals i had by au point were small, but feisty as could be and one could get the impression that they were always thinking, which conveyed intelligence to me.

bonehead, the colt, is now 19, but his dam foaled him in the process of developing a recto-vaginal tear.his legs were emerging in the normal fashion, but his head was emerging from her rectum. my ex-wife, a delivery room nurse for many years, knew what to do and we gently repositioned him and out he came! i thought he was dead though, because he was cyanotic as could be, but i blew as hard as i could into his nostrils and he came around. this baby foaled at 8:30 p.m. and never laid down until 10:00 a.m. the next morning.

of course, we were up all night and worried about them, but the vet reassured us that neither one was going to die.

i watched them all night long, but i worried more about the foal, because i wanted to see him lay down. as a result, i called my vet again and he told me to push him down, which i did, but i laugh about it now, because i swear that he had springs on his feet!he was up in an instant and i then knew that this little guy was tough and that he was going to be o.k.

i don't want to bore anyone, but i mentioned this little story for dianne's benefit.

with exception of being at training facilities and at the track, i have had bonehead at home and if he has bitten me one time, he has bitten me 500 times and that is not an exaggeration.

my wife and i tried everything in the early stages and nothing worked. the first time i was on his back, i had him at a canter and he had his head turned so far to the left trying to get at my leg, that i thought that he was going to break his neck! i loved it!

of my foals, i have to say that he is my favorite. he is on the small side, but what he lacks in physical stature has certainly been made up for in his spirit and good natured playfulness. it matters not to me that he didn't make it at the track, i'd take a

horse like him any day.

in conclusion, i have to say that we all have an opinion about what a horse needs in order to be a success at the race track, but goodwin mentioned green monkey as an example of the tangible aspects of judging horseflesh. didn't the horse go for 16 million dollars at the sale? that i assume, was based on conformation and breeding and nothing more. we can't explain the rest in rational terms, because we can't possibly read into a horse's heart and brain to find out if he is a triple crown winner. that's up to the good lord!

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Bellwether — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:24:36 GMT

JJ...they may have more info but not many are picking up on it...make the trainer's test HARDER!!!

re: Don't Pet Her, She's a Thoroughbred

Bellwether — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:24:33 GMT

JJ...they may have more info but not many are picking up on it...make the trainer's test HARDER!!!