Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

Beyond Perfection Saves Best for Last

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:30:10 GMT

Beyond Perfection was barren three times, slipped three more, and produced one dead foal (along with five less-than-impressive runners) before being booked to Candy Ride in 2005. The resulting grade II winner indicates the trouble was worth it -- but

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

lance guranovich — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:11:34 GMT

to bradgm,

first off, i did not remove any posting and i don't hide behind a thing. i am who i am. it is that simple.

i have decided that this will be my last posting, because i can see very clearly that these pages are controlled by a small, but select group of glad handers and butt kissers. it is almost impossible to make any headway under such circumstances.

all of you have vast stores of knowledge in regard to the issues at hand and nobody else counts.

i won't even waste my time with you bradgm. you are one of the educated and successful elite. i am sure that you don't have to eat pinto beans and rice like some of your fellow bloggers.

also, you like to rub elbows with trainers and i guess that makes you a stakes caliber person. by the way, my last trainer is a female and like you, i know plenty of trainers, but they are no more than acquaintances to me.

you talk about how i attacked wanda, but wanda attempted to underplay something that has been close to my heart for years. she openly asserted her feelings by stating that if we didn't feel as she did about the blind mare, we are the ones who are the bleeding heart sissies and god forbid that we truly experience tragedy. we wouldn't know how to handle it.

i brought up certain facts about my life to inform wanda that i certainly have experienced tragedy in different forms. wanda was just more subtle than me, but she defended something that i was against and i tried to explain that any person, not just myself, has the capacity to experience tragic circumstances and possibly ,as a result of such experiences, has become more sensitive to other things in life.

every day and all around you, there is evidence of wrondoing in regard to thoroughbreds and horses in general, but the group attacks me en masse.

i state fact in regard to situations that i have witnessed personally and general manager brad says that i repeat the same three examples over and over again. you know how it is. when you get older, you become redundant or in your case bradgm, maybe you just don't know how to count.

as for you tb, i probably sat my first horse when i was 13. at the age of two, i was probably sitting on a pottie.

in conclusion, i guess that i don't have the answers that you have. it is next to impossible to go up against the "dream team" in terms of intelligence and experience. therefore, i won't try any longer, but you still have lcm to rake over the coals.

Scot's reply: I've allowed this back-and-forth to go on with only a few pleas to tone down the rhetoric... but let's make this the last comment in this chain. It's one thing to trade a few barbs -- the whole idea of these blogs is to build the Blood-Horse community and part of that is exchanging differing opinions -- but at some point, these conversations lose any relation to racing and breeding. Let's get back to discussing Thoroughbreds. Thanks, guys.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

katsan — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:06:35 GMT

tb, guess the w is silent, just kidding I admire you for being able to even work a computer, even if your grandson does help you.

Lance, you said you weren't trying to alienate anyone. Yet you made fun of Wanda, told stories about your life that would have best been left out or just say you have had some real tragedy in your life. All of us aren't as cynical or disbelieving of our fellow man as you are. You think us in racing are looking bad here? No you seem like someone who wouldn't have much compassion for anyone or anything, seems like you just want to get your point across and have the last word other real points of view be danged.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

BIGHORSEFAN — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 20:20:28 GMT

Lance,

My question is just WHAT do you want done to the horse industry? Do you want to shoot all the trainers, owners and breeders (or just the trainers)? Put them in jail? Do you want to give them a fair trial or just lump them all together like you do now and say no one does anything good so we'll wipe em all out? Do you want to put an end to horse racing? You offer lots of criticism, gory unelated stories of morgues, murder etc a few repeated incidents but no credit for the good and no viable solutions. You insult people, call them liars, dishonest and uncaring yet you know nothing about them. Then you call them haughty when their opinions don't match yours and you don't like it because they are around the horses at the track a hundred times more than you and think your tales of tragedy aren't the norm. Your biased unyielding point of view is just about the single most harmful thing I've seen being done to hinder horse racing instead of helping it to overcome it's problems maybe that's your not so hidden agenda. Those that can, DO, those that can't talk about it and tell everyone else what's wrong with them. (I won't say teach because my Aunt is one of the greatest humanitarians on earth and she teaches, I respect her she knows good and evil exists in all of us). She's the reason I have 4 retired race horses enjoying that retirement even if I have to go without some of the luxuries I used to enjoy, I enjoy helping them more.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

tbHORSWRACINGrules — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:00:12 GMT

Brad is right, I’ve been following The Five Cross Files and was in this blog stable reading about Proud Spell when I saw a couple added posts.

The reason I told you I’ve been on a horse since I was 2 was to let you know that I do know what I’m talking about that you don‘t need to know who I am to prove my point. Even though you put your name down, I don‘t know you from Adam so what you say could all be lies, I don‘t call people liars though. I know many, many people in the horse industry, heck at my age nearer to a hundred than it is to 65 I‘d have to, never heard of you before. I know those folks personally, a lot of them race horse trainers, ranchers, rodeo people etc and know how they treat their horses. I never said that every single person in horse racing or any part of the horse industry do right by their horses, you have people that think they can do whatever they want in every part of life. The 70 foals I say I raised, that was just the QH and TB race horses, I’ve been on earth so many years, and since this is a HORSE RACING magazine I didn’t mention the ranch, show or working horses I’ve raised. You and I both know that mistreatment goes on in the horse industry in the dog and cat world, etc. Since you don’t have millions of people watching the AQHA World show or watching people ride their horses on the ditch bank or in the pasture that isn’t as high profile so of course everyone targets the horse racing industry not just on this magazine about racing but everywhere else as well, same to rodeo. As far as saying I do know what hard work horses are and how many hours it takes, you’re right about that. I really had no choice, I took over the family business, as it was done when I was young. My relative who trains race horses is just as honest and hard working as I am and he loves his horses, that was his fathers and his grandfather‘s business, his mother‘s was the same as mine. I know how many hours he works and it is about as many as I worked when I was his age. You crossed the line when you went to the shock tactics as Brad says. To me anything else you say is irrelevant, no matter how much I may support your view of what is best for horse racing. I didn't callously dismiss your points, I just said that is life, like it or not. All any of us can do is the best that we can to make things right. Do you really think calling out these racing people like this is helping? Do you think anyone would listen to you before they listen to someone who presents their point in a reasonable manner without talking about brains, dead babies, what liars people are? Hate you for your views, no I don’t hate anyone for their opinions. Maybe I hate the roads they travel down to reach that point or dislike their refusal to see any point other than their own. But unlike you I don’t hate anyone. I don’t call anyone a liar unless I have proof positive. I think you seem to have an overabundance of hate in your heart for your fellow man, more than enough to go around for the rest of us. Maybe you should figure out who you really hate instead of putting that label on others, once again another of your misconceptions and for a fact statements about others. Haughty attitudes, look in the mirror, you are convinced you are right and that there are no gray areas no possiblity that the good outweighs the bad once in a while. Defending an indefensible act, no just pointing out the good instead of constantly the bad. Why don't we try to build on the good instead of trying to destroy the industry with the bad.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

Bradgm — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:49:39 GMT

You ARE belaboring the point and showing cowardice by posting 4 days after the last person posted on here but that’s your modus operandi. I have been coming back on here and reviewing these comments for a few days, I knew you’d show up. Do you think people don’t check the blog stable for a particular blog and see an added post, you know it happens. Anyway, you say tb and I are liberal in calling out your accusations against trainers? You have disputed the word of every trainer on here, every trainer who you have read about ie. the ‘aftermath’ of the Lukas/Landaluce story. You took on a trainer on the LJ Q&A, he did not respond back to you and when others defended him you made accusations against them. Questioning their work hours, honesty and ethics. You may have had it removed but not before people read it. I happen to have an excellent memory, curse or blessing I don’t know.

My issue with you was your graphic description of your ‘tragic’ life. For all the good you think your ’shock’ tactics accomplished, how much ill will did they create? The majority reading this website are racing enthusiasts. That doesn’t immediately infer that they don’t care about the horses in racing, that love is always the underlying theme, they just don’t take it to the extremes of an Animal Rights activist does. My buddy rescued 4 race horses I’m a silent financial supporter on that and just don’t usually talk about it, he doesn’t either until being accused of being clueless. I didn’t stray from the issues, I explained that I am a handicapper to prevent your immediate accusation that I am a trainer, like you have done to Doc Farmer, tb and anyone who seems to support the trainers. I said I am a college graduate only to support the statement that I made about how hard working the trainers are that it does take time to do all facets of training, up to and including reading a condition book and entering the horses. It’s not something that takes five minutes, it can take hours. As far as trainers telling me anything, I happen to have some very close friends that are trainers, how do you think I got so interested in the first place? We don’t lie to each other good or bad, none of us is perfect and don’t claim to be.

I’m a grown man, with a very successful business, do you think I haven’t learned to tell when someone is lying to me even if it’s by omission? Do you really think a successful businessman takes everything at face value? I do choose to believe in the innate good in my fellow man but I’m far from gullible or naïve. You talk about all the incidents you are aware of yet repeat the same three over and over again. I can give you many instances to the contrary, that I have personally witnessed. No where did anyone on here say that everything is perfect and nothing bad ever happens in racing. The same can be said of every day life, some people do the right thing, some do not. And Lance, you did call someone, in fact several someone’s liars when you told one trainer on here that he didn’t work 18 hours a day, thus inferring that his claims to honesty, love and care for his horses were also false. You had no facts to the contrary other than your own assumptions and biases. Then when the hours worked seem provable you switch tact and say nobody forced them to do that job, how do you know what their circumstances are? Have you ever gotten so involved in something that you can’t see removing yourself from it regardless of the hardship? Larry Jones himself talked about the huge number of hours he works, he loves it. Wayne Lukas has been documented how hard and how many hours he worked and the hours he still works even by writers he has battled (I saw him at Saratoga) and the man is pushing 73. Sure maybe it’s not 18 hours of constant physical labor but everything it entails takes hours. Throw into that managing foals on your own farm like the one elderly trainer on here said and it probably reaches 20 hours. Yet you called him out on it and said he was a liar. I see that statement of hours worked over and over as well as reading about it, witnessing it for myself and when that is shown to you, you change your attack to still beat up on them. You commend tb, yet castigated Atthebarn, why? Because tb said he wasn’t a trainer and was a rancher/farmer, that is my assumption which you have backed up in your postings. Yes maybe some of these trainers have had breakdowns and even a few drug positives, but if you tell me that you have not had one bad thing, error or ill advised decision happen in a 40-50 year career and I will say YOU are a liar not just based on personal opinion because you would have to be absolutely perfect and no human being is. Hate for you,nope, I don’t know you but your writing seems to indicate you have some issues. You talk about YOUR excellent trainer, why is he any different from the ones on here and in the industry? Because you chose him? Apparently you only pick out a few comments that you use to support your beliefs. You cannot justify what tb or I called you out on so you choose to take our comments out of context when they were pertinent to our overall statement.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

lance guranovich — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 06:56:35 GMT

to tbhorseracingrules and bradgm,

i don't want to belabor the point, but my only agenda is to protect the thoroughbred race horse and all horses in general.

tb commented on incidents that i mentioned and shrugged them off as isolated and rare when nothing could be further from the truth. i could name 50 incidents without taking a breath.

every single day, bradgm and the rest read about the excessive use of a variety of drugs at the track and the suspensions that are handed out. is that just carelessness on everyone's part?

when two trainers can laugh about a horse dying in the gate and comment about the horse being juiced, that tells me a lot about the sport. that is not hearsay on my part.

bradgm, aren't you being somewhat liberal in your accusation that i am against trainers? as a matter of fact, the last trainer i had was the epitome of what a trainer should be in all ways.

you guys stray from the issues at hand and start talking about yourselves. bradgm is a college graduate and a handicapper. tb first sat a horse when he was two.

as for myself, i merely stated fact when i was called out to defend myself. so many of you have such haughty attitudes in regard to your opinions that nobody else matters. you say that about me, but i believe the reverse to be true.

my argument is with the horse racing industry and not the public, but when someone chooses to defend an issue that is indefensible, i'm going to go for the jugular.

as i stated repeatedly, no trainer is going to tell bradgm the handicapper that he employs whatever is at hand to enhance the performance of the animal in his charge. would you?

also, i don't call anyone a liar unless i know with certainty that they are lying. life at the track is not easy and taking care of horses in any manner is not easy. tb knows, he raised a lot of foals. it is a lot of work and i commend anyone who does this type of work honestly and legally.

that is what i am all about i am not all about an educated church going christian having a large white patch on a registered quarter horse foal excised. should i condone that behavior?

in good conscience, should i accept the fact that a standardbred was left in it's stall with vetwrap bound so tight on it's leg that the leg beacame gangrenous and the horse had to be euthanized. the "trainer" left the horse in that condition.

should i accept that a vet nerved a filly the day after i heard the trainer state: " i want to get rid of this ***."

if you want to hate me over my stance, be my guest.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

tbHORSERACINGrules — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:09:58 GMT

Brad, changed it. I think it was more age related than anything, i originally wanted that name but I think someone used a form of it. the rules part I get but I feel like soon you'll be hearing a real old timer saying 'you rule dude'.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

Bradgm — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:39:06 GMT

Lance. I also took great offense to your insensitive comments. You didn't alienate me, you made me want to throw up. You quote things that happened decades ago in the most graphic nature. They are reminiscent of the shock tactics by PETA and they have no place on any message board. I've moderated boards for years and yours would have been edited off the board. Doubt you'd have passed Jason's edit. You also have an abnormal obsession with race horse trainers, I wouldn't even speculate on why. You tell people they lie about their jobs. like tbhorse said, it's pretty documented how many hours they work and most I know love it but when somebody attacks them they try to express that it isn't lazing around the barn like people present. NO I'm not a trainer. That's why I say you have an agenda against them because whenever someone supports racing that's what you accuse. I happened to meet one of the trainers that you called a liar, who never actually defended himself to you , others did that after his initial comment. He spent a lot of time at the barn, very early in the morning, the sales ended late and that’s part of the job too.. As for the condition book, I'm a college grad a long time handicapper and it was mind boggling . Saw a lot of big name trainers doing the same thing. At 5 a.m. You say you are passionate about racing, everyone I've ever talked to about your comments thinks just the opposite. I think what I'm trying to say to you is need to stop being so judgmental and keep the shock tactics for the PETA website.

tbhorseracing, did you decide rule would make people think you were saying something about the rules so changed it to fan? I got that you mean it's the best, I like it change it back, please.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

tbHORSERACINGfan — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:16:14 GMT

Lance, One final comment. Do you think you are doing something to stop juicing by calling people on a blog board liars? Do you think trainers are going to keep reading these blanket negativities and belligerent attacks? I think that does more harm than good. The people who can really have an effect just stop reading.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

tbHORSERACINGrules — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:59:28 GMT

Lance, I did not miss the point you were trying to make. I just didn't appreciate the avenue you took to make it, nor did others on the comments. If you would have made it less offensive I may have even agreed with you but when you attack human beings who do HAVE FEELINGS and you use offensive graphic detail to make a point, you demean yourself and your point is lost. You personally attack and judge people, I've seen it before. You dispute what trainers say, saying they don't work the hours they say they do when trainer after trainer talks about it, journalists write about meeting or seeing them at the barn at 4:45 in the a.m. You say that they claim they are honest and hardworking, who are we to say they aren't? In your drive to EXPOSE people you step over the line. I don't know why you feel the need to call people you don't even know, liars.

The trainers have said why they won’t disclose their names and I admire that.

I am absolutely not a race horse trainer. I farm/ranch, breed and raise horses. I have had race horses in the past and I do have a family member who is a race horse trainer as well as other family members involved in other aspects of the horse industry. You have horses, so we all know just how many hours it takes. You say you have a limited amount of horses and I bet you devote a lot of hours to them. The people who mention it do so because they feel the need to defend themselves to people like you, not because they feel it's a hardship. Tell them to get into another job, well most times a person loves their job but if we told that to everyone, a lot of people who get beat up about their job or even have a bad day would be looking for new professions. If you tell me what you do for a living, my bet is I could find something really negative to say about you if I was inclined to be that way.

My comment about the 7 foals is that it doesn't give you the right to dispute and belittle people because of those 7 foals. I've raised 10 times that and I would never attack someone in the way you do and only commented because I was so offended by what you said. As far as blowing hot air, I absolutely guarantee you that not one horse I have ever bred or owned has ever gone to the killers! Most of my mares have 4-5 foals at most, my wife figures they shouldn’t have any more foals than she did. A few only had 2 foals and those were 5 years apart. As far as DOING something about the problems, unlike you do belittling and berating people in the industry, right now I have a 27 year old adopted mustang on the place. She was never broke to ride, too mean, she’s halter broke and now in old age is easier to trim, give shots to etc strange enough she loves to be brushed, sprayed and she‘s as shiny as a penny. She has her own huge pen with a loafing shed, the best grain and alfalfa twice a day and treats because she’s one that begs for food and I don’t want to founder her. We’ve had her since she was 3, somebody got her, couldn’t care for her. She’s a buddy to the QH and thoroughbred foals and the yearlings, not a nurse mare, just a friend. As far as the retired race horses I have several of those here as well. I had numerous that I kept until they died a pain free natural death or were euthanized to avoid any pain or suffering. A friend told us “old horses never die, they just go to Jim’s place to live in luxury until they go to the Kingdom of Heaven”. If you think that’s blowing hot air, well I’m just glad you don’t fly a hot air balloon. As far as identifying myself, why, you going to hunt me down and beat up an old man? I don’t see any need to identify myself. I’m not calling people out about what they say they do with their lives or how honest they are or how hard they do or don’t work, you are. I’m not saying the industry doesn’t have problems, yes it does. Do you really think people are oblivious to that. EVERY SINGLE horse trainer on here has admitted that, they also say THEY try to do things the right way. I read you overheard and saw something, so you base your whole opinion on those two negative instances but disregard all the positive ones? The reason for the comments from racetrackers , I would assume, is you not being on the track every single day for hours on end simply saw two incidents. Isolated, maybe or maybe not, just like there’s bad there’s always good. Can we fix every problem in the world, no we can’t. Can we focus on the good once in a while to help overcome the bad, well most of us can. You are just getting a response from someone who thinks you need to back off and have a little more perspective stop calling people out all the time. Just the opinion of an anonymous old man who climbed on his first horse when he was two years old.

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

katsan — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:25:31 GMT

Well said Kayte. Let me say it is far preferable to have a nurse mare than to bottle feed, I told that story. We chose the formula route because it was just a short time frame, the foal was extremely well bred and went on to a very nice race career as an ungraded stakes winner. Unfortunately our foal like that of the one another trainer mentioned, died at a very young age due to an aneurysm. Maybe something in the Rh factor promblem, who knows?

re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

Kayte — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:50:20 GMT

In reference to the debate between Wanda and Goodwin, I want to add my 2 cents in only for this reason.

As the author has stated in the first few comments, most mares are treated well and the breeders look for the signs in an older mare that it is time to graduate her to the baby-sitter category. As some of you are mentioning, this Thoroughbred industry is based on money and, yes as much as I even hate to admit it as I love these beautiful animals just as much as you all do, that fact is true. And that is true when it comes to a breeder's decision to breed a mare- it has too. With stud fees the height they are any more, to breed that mare that produced the stakes-winning racehorse later in life, would be even more of a chance that it is normally with a younger mare. So health MUST play a huge part of it- to lose that mare or that foal or esp both is to lose the money that was spent on getting that mare pregnant.

And as for mention of Chilluki, as I remember she was still young when she passed on, so how does her death fit into a conversation about older mares and the effects of breeding them later in life?? Maybe it is just me, but think about your subject before bringing in something that is a little off base.

And now for my views on weaning a mare and foal and the nure mare "industry". As much as you want to see it, horses are still just that-- horses. And I'm not saying this from a point of view that only sees them as that, since I love these animals, too- I am still inclined to see them with attitudes and emotions like us as well. And I do that with my 3 cats and my parents dog- any animal I come across. But the fact remains, and you can argue all you want if you like if this offends you, that they aren't on the same level emotionally as we are. Maybe they do pine for their foal, both the mares weaned from their foal after caring for them and the nurse mares who never get to mother the foals they produce. But fact is that, in their survival minds (which they still possess even to this day, as evidenced by horses who spook before they know what they spooked at), they can't pine for their foals that long. In the wild, that would mean death if they pined and grieved heavily for a foal they lost, either by death or weaning in this case. So they act upset, then they move on- harsh reality but it is true. Not to say that in their heads they don't miss that little foal but outwardly they can't pine for long. So weaning isn't as harsh and mean as you think- we all know these animals are strong and that they will move on from weaning to care for another foal.

And that goes for nurse mares, too- even if you think that "industry" is a harsh and cruel world. As far as I see it, it is needed- unfortunately. Doesn't mean I am prone to agree with the tactics but when a mare dies, for whatever reason, with a young newborn foal left behind, you have 2 options- feed that foal yourself on mixed formula or a nurse mare with real mare's milk that is much healthier for an orphaned foal. Given those options, I would go for a nurse mare, too. But then again- I eventually want to breed horses (not Thoroughbreds, but Canadian Horses) and if I ever find myself in that position, yes I would find myself a customer in the "nurse mare industry"

Anyways, that is all, even though I have rambled a bit. Go ahead and argue what you want on anything I have said- I knew I would be stating subjects that some people would find offensive or have their own, opposite feelings for. But I've said my piece. I'll leave it at that.

The Rest of Their Lives

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:09:09 GMT

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re: Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

lance guranovich — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:52:14 GMT

it was not my intention to alienate anybody. my statement about the blind mare was factual and i stated an opinion. it was that simple.

one would think that i opened the gates of hell, because i thought it was wrong to do what was done.

along comes wanda and throws in the word tragedy as if to say:"what would you do if you had a real problem?" that is an unfair statement for anyone to make, because life is full of problems for everyone and i understand that very well and it is the only reason i brought up parts of my life to assure wanda that i am familiar with tragic circumstances. in wanda's biased opinion, people like me have to wake up and be realistic, because if any of us in this world have truly experienced the negatives in life, we wouldn't be making such a big deal about one inconsequential mare.

also, i brought up personal aspects of my life only to reinforce the fact that the two separate feelings of emotion can co-exist.

as for tbHORSERACINGRULES,i will say this much about you,even though you are a mystery person to me. people like you miss the point of it all.

why shouldn't i rely on my experiences to formulate an opinion. isn't that what learning is all about?

as for the seven foals i raised, that number is seven more than a lot of you have ever raised, but that is just one part of my life, but an important one though. why can't i feel good about it?

i didn't grow up on a farm and i never worked at the track, but a person would think that you need those qualifications to really know the horse. identify yourself and we'll see how much YOU truly know.

since i have been on these blog pages, it absolutely amazes me how defensive "racetrackers" are. they all work 20 hours per day and they sacrifice everything they have for that particular style of life. it is a harsh life and there are many ups and downs, but the good lord gave you a free will. take it somewhere else if you can't stand the heat.

i paid my first trainer's bill in 1978 and i have been in and out of racing since then.

when i relate fact as to what i have seen with my own eyes and experienced personally, "racetrackers" cringe in disbelief. not us, they say!

it is always some gyp trainer or somebody on the outer fringes of the business, but not the lily white core of selfless and dedicated "racetrackers."

to answer tbhorseracingrules once again, you oversimplify the problem in regard to horse racing. you use words such as risk and alarmist, but you just blow hot air.

personally, i do not know anyone who is as passionate about horse racing as i am, but not for an instant does that take away the fact that there are serious problems within the infrastructure of the sport itself.

if you love it that much, do something about it. redirect your animosity toward those of your group who are giving horse racing a bad name. weed out the people who use elephant juice or cobra venom and send their horses on a one way trip from the track to the killer. then you can talk all you want.