The Rest of Their Lives

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Julie L. — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:42:24 GMT

BIGHORSEFAN - couldn't agree more. And thank you, again it's nice having constructive conversations.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:12:51 GMT

Julie, Excellent idea. I really think someone probably should have thought about that by now, maybe they have though. I did hear a big trainer speak on how almost all studs are prolific and it's the mare he focuses on when buying a yearling. Like how durable was the mare, what was her race record ie how many times did she run and not just if she won but how she ran, her other progeny and their durability etc it was a really interesing video. Maybe they should start looking at a dam of dams just as they do a sire of sires.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:31:09 GMT

Thank you BIGHORSEFAN, I enjoy when two people can have a good discussion that allows the exchange of thoughts and ideas. Perhaps a study can be done to determine which female line can hold up to the rigors of yearly breeding and which need time inbetween. We are always studing the sire lines and yet we do not seem to give much regard, that we should, to the strong female lines. We know which produces the blue hens lets see which produces the strong broodmare. What are your thoughts?

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BTJake — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:00:47 GMT

In the wild...they breed every year.

At our place...when the mare "tells us" she's done, the old girl lives a life of comfort and luxury.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:32:32 GMT

Julie, Yes and a good thought it was. My point is just as all humans are different so are all horses. Look at the women who have 14,17 and even 22 children and they have a thought process. But I'm not about to judge them.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Bradgm — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:46:13 GMT

Hip hip hooray for Dawna, well said. Now be ready to get slammed, no one believes the facts.

Scot on my compliment to the last 4 poster, I meant the last 4 before and including catnip lane.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

katsan — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:33:44 GMT

LindaB,

Then I guess I can nitpick til the cows come home. On my journey out to gather some mares and fillies in from the paddocks to the barn more to avoid the lightning than the torrential downpour which they love, one of the yearlings took a chunk out of my upper arm. Oh well not the first time, we had a gelding we bought at a sale, probably headed to the killers and he was not a TB, just a backyard horse. He was actually mean and chomped down on my arm, which broke then tried to kick me in the head, nearly lost my arm too, bloodclots and tissue damage from the bite. He got yelled at, but nothing more we figured he was just jumpy. We kept him for years, made a saddle horse out of him but I can tell you if he even breathed within ten feet of me I jumped a foot. We live in the wild west, open spaces lots of big ranches (18,000 acres and up.) We have some beautiful farms here too. Still very much of an agrarian society out here. Oh what a dream to own a KY horse farm, although we have a nice family owned horse/alfalfa farm up near the big city so I know how much grazing a pasture can take.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:23:05 GMT

Bighorsefan - I agree that comparing people and animals is not an easy thing but perhaps we should allow common sense to come into play and that tells me that after observing nature and how my body reacted to back to back pregnancies that perhaps we should reconsider year after year breeding of these broodmares. Common sense tells me that this will eventually take it's toll on the mare and the developing fetus and perhaps in some way to the foal that is currently nursing and maybe not receiving all the nutrients it needs from it's mother due to her body trying to keep up with both foals. It's just a thought.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Dawna — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:14:38 GMT

Re productivity of mares living in the wild...

Mares normally cycle in the spring, when the days get longer, and then taper off as the summer ends. So a mare "naturally" wouldn't be breedable in the winter months in most regions (Jan-March). That leaves April-August. With an 11+ month gestation, the average mare cannot produce another foal within 12 months... it usually takes her another full cycle after foaling. So after a few years, she will probably not be bred since her last foal will be so late in the year. In modern "captive" breeding, the mares may be induced to cycle in early February to produce a foal in January (to have the biggest yearling on the block two years later). If she doesn't take, she's short-cycled back into season using drugs. Follicles and receptivity are monitored, to maximize the chances for conception. Regumate is given to help mares with low-level pregnancy hormones sustain the pregnancy. Mares are bred back on the foal heat to try to move their foaling dates up in the year. So the modern TB breeder is much more likely to achieve a successful pregnancy for a mare every year than is a wild mare. This is why the domestic mare may rarely get a year off.

That said, I haven't heard of too many oft-bred mares dying from calcium deficiency. Usually mares' delicate reproductive system will start to break down and they simply won't get in foal (or be able to retain a pregnancy) any more after a certain point.

Also, complications from foaling are not necessarily because mares are old or have produced many foals.

Now, as far as the issue of responsibility for retired/pensioned horses goes, who's your nominee-- the breeder (perhaps several owners back from the present), anybody who made money from the horse (if anybody did), the last owner (who may have claimed a horse right before it injured itself permanently), the final breeder (who picked up the 22-yo in foal at the sale)?

It's hard to assign. For now it seems to rest on the shoulders of those who recognize the need when they see it and step in.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:14:32 GMT

Wanda, great suggestion. LCM what Scot is talking about is this ABSOLUTE refusal to acknowledge that anyone in racing does anything good EVER, especially the big money people. Why is that? Myself I believe there is good and evil in everyone I just don't believe that every single wealthy horse breeder is as evil as you suggest. Everything is not black and white. Someone pointed out the great care that Storm Cat still receives after being pensioned to his private armed guard protected paddock, others on here and the other blog have detailed what they do to care for their retirees, a lady talked about cutting up apples to feed to her finicky retired race mare, other's have related how they care for theirs and I bet they'd send you pictures if they could but still you only search out the negative, Why is that? Does NOTHING positive ever occur in your life is it filled only with negatives? No, then realize that is the same case with these people you and the posters like you keep taking to task. I asked you to start naming the mares who are cared for aren't overbred etc you still want to focus on what YOU perceive as showing how bad people are so you look up aged mares consigned to a sale, which a person who actually works on the farms you speak of after telling you firsthand how well cared for they are, told you those mares were out of the sale. The 'consignor' you worked for was probably right, he may have seen a tendency towards negativity even then. Man, all that wasted energy on negativity, yes the negative always takes more energy than the positive well except in a battery.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

LindaB — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:00:15 GMT

katsan - you are right it is nick picking! I am not in Kentucky and I know that there is space for a rescue or two at these "locations." It is all about the horse and the personal responsibility of owners, breeders, trainers, etc. Too many are ending up in slaughter and they don't deserve that. But anyone who is a true lover and protector of these animals who are willing to give us their all, can nick pick any time.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

catnip lane — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:10:52 GMT

LCM, i looked up the sales results on the list of aged mares and every one of them was withdrawn from the sale. Does anyone out there know what happened to them? I'll try to contact the consignor to see what the deal is. I PERSONALLY retire my old mares and let them live out their lives. But, in defense of this - i'm sure i'm stepping off the edge into deep water now - at least they spent significant money and put them into a sale where they had a chance to find a real home. The alternative would have been to take them to the stockyard....

If i find something out from the consignor i'll post it here.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Wanda — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:53:49 GMT

Here's a thought. If you feel so strongly on this subject get a group together and channel all that energy towards making a differince.Pay attention to the headlines on here and other sites and try to be active on this issue.Make yourselves known in a appropiate way and if you talk reasonably people will listen. That's the Canadian way and I'm sure it works in the US too.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Bradgm — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:18:53 GMT

Scot thanks, I also agree with catnip lane, actually the last 4 comments support the views of most horse racing people and once again, how sad they have to be pushed into a corner to defend themselves. Then when they question you all, they suffer further abuse. Nowhere did any of them call you murderers, abusers, cruel, callous and money hungry, yet YOU with the opposing view are the ones who get so upset when questioned about your comments. The breeders, owners and trainers that post on here echo the same sentiment over and over, They love their horses, yet that is questioned. I guess I tend to believe in the good in people and like catnip, katsan, Wanda, tbHorseracingrules, BIG and others and I have seen it first hand. All of them and I as well have said to go to the KY horse farms, take a tour, see if you can go on a tour of the backside. You'll see what all of us are talking about.And as we keep saying there's good and bad in everything but negativity sells better. Some factions have admitted the main reason they target horse racing is because of it's high profile, big money and it gets the attention of the public. If this kind of negativity and attacks keep up they can move the focus elsewhere because that won't be true. What's really disturbing about this is this is published on a reputable horse racing publication and people who read on an infrequent basis, take it for the gospel, of course maybe that and the abolution of racing is what the real agenda is for those who comment negatively and attack the lifeblood of the human element of the racing industry.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

LCM — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:46:27 GMT

Hey Scot, "getting caught up in the negatives?". Really? Or addressing the harsh realities? My target isn't the smaller breeder who tends to have one on one interaction with the horses they own. It is the larger breeding operations and owners that are detached from the individual animals. They are simply a commodity and when the commodity stops producing like MEPACHE did they face a questionable future. It took Royce Clay in OK to ensure MEPACHE a safe retirement, not the multimillionaires in Lexington that prospered off her! Thats not getting caught up in negatives it's just the reality. This INDUSTRY needs to implement a better safety net for both racing and breeding animals PERIOD. It's time for EVERYONE to be responsible. That includes the sales company who stood to profit off of sending those old mares "down the road".