The Rest of Their Lives

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Julie L. — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:42:24 GMT

BIGHORSEFAN - couldn't agree more. And thank you, again it's nice having constructive conversations.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:12:51 GMT

Julie, Excellent idea. I really think someone probably should have thought about that by now, maybe they have though. I did hear a big trainer speak on how almost all studs are prolific and it's the mare he focuses on when buying a yearling. Like how durable was the mare, what was her race record ie how many times did she run and not just if she won but how she ran, her other progeny and their durability etc it was a really interesing video. Maybe they should start looking at a dam of dams just as they do a sire of sires.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:31:09 GMT

Thank you BIGHORSEFAN, I enjoy when two people can have a good discussion that allows the exchange of thoughts and ideas. Perhaps a study can be done to determine which female line can hold up to the rigors of yearly breeding and which need time inbetween. We are always studing the sire lines and yet we do not seem to give much regard, that we should, to the strong female lines. We know which produces the blue hens lets see which produces the strong broodmare. What are your thoughts?

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BTJake — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:00:47 GMT

In the wild...they breed every year.

At our place...when the mare "tells us" she's done, the old girl lives a life of comfort and luxury.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:32:32 GMT

Julie, Yes and a good thought it was. My point is just as all humans are different so are all horses. Look at the women who have 14,17 and even 22 children and they have a thought process. But I'm not about to judge them.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Bradgm — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:46:13 GMT

Hip hip hooray for Dawna, well said. Now be ready to get slammed, no one believes the facts.

Scot on my compliment to the last 4 poster, I meant the last 4 before and including catnip lane.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

katsan — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:33:44 GMT

LindaB,

Then I guess I can nitpick til the cows come home. On my journey out to gather some mares and fillies in from the paddocks to the barn more to avoid the lightning than the torrential downpour which they love, one of the yearlings took a chunk out of my upper arm. Oh well not the first time, we had a gelding we bought at a sale, probably headed to the killers and he was not a TB, just a backyard horse. He was actually mean and chomped down on my arm, which broke then tried to kick me in the head, nearly lost my arm too, bloodclots and tissue damage from the bite. He got yelled at, but nothing more we figured he was just jumpy. We kept him for years, made a saddle horse out of him but I can tell you if he even breathed within ten feet of me I jumped a foot. We live in the wild west, open spaces lots of big ranches (18,000 acres and up.) We have some beautiful farms here too. Still very much of an agrarian society out here. Oh what a dream to own a KY horse farm, although we have a nice family owned horse/alfalfa farm up near the big city so I know how much grazing a pasture can take.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:23:05 GMT

Bighorsefan - I agree that comparing people and animals is not an easy thing but perhaps we should allow common sense to come into play and that tells me that after observing nature and how my body reacted to back to back pregnancies that perhaps we should reconsider year after year breeding of these broodmares. Common sense tells me that this will eventually take it's toll on the mare and the developing fetus and perhaps in some way to the foal that is currently nursing and maybe not receiving all the nutrients it needs from it's mother due to her body trying to keep up with both foals. It's just a thought.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Dawna — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:14:38 GMT

Re productivity of mares living in the wild...

Mares normally cycle in the spring, when the days get longer, and then taper off as the summer ends. So a mare "naturally" wouldn't be breedable in the winter months in most regions (Jan-March). That leaves April-August. With an 11+ month gestation, the average mare cannot produce another foal within 12 months... it usually takes her another full cycle after foaling. So after a few years, she will probably not be bred since her last foal will be so late in the year. In modern "captive" breeding, the mares may be induced to cycle in early February to produce a foal in January (to have the biggest yearling on the block two years later). If she doesn't take, she's short-cycled back into season using drugs. Follicles and receptivity are monitored, to maximize the chances for conception. Regumate is given to help mares with low-level pregnancy hormones sustain the pregnancy. Mares are bred back on the foal heat to try to move their foaling dates up in the year. So the modern TB breeder is much more likely to achieve a successful pregnancy for a mare every year than is a wild mare. This is why the domestic mare may rarely get a year off.

That said, I haven't heard of too many oft-bred mares dying from calcium deficiency. Usually mares' delicate reproductive system will start to break down and they simply won't get in foal (or be able to retain a pregnancy) any more after a certain point.

Also, complications from foaling are not necessarily because mares are old or have produced many foals.

Now, as far as the issue of responsibility for retired/pensioned horses goes, who's your nominee-- the breeder (perhaps several owners back from the present), anybody who made money from the horse (if anybody did), the last owner (who may have claimed a horse right before it injured itself permanently), the final breeder (who picked up the 22-yo in foal at the sale)?

It's hard to assign. For now it seems to rest on the shoulders of those who recognize the need when they see it and step in.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:14:32 GMT

Wanda, great suggestion. LCM what Scot is talking about is this ABSOLUTE refusal to acknowledge that anyone in racing does anything good EVER, especially the big money people. Why is that? Myself I believe there is good and evil in everyone I just don't believe that every single wealthy horse breeder is as evil as you suggest. Everything is not black and white. Someone pointed out the great care that Storm Cat still receives after being pensioned to his private armed guard protected paddock, others on here and the other blog have detailed what they do to care for their retirees, a lady talked about cutting up apples to feed to her finicky retired race mare, other's have related how they care for theirs and I bet they'd send you pictures if they could but still you only search out the negative, Why is that? Does NOTHING positive ever occur in your life is it filled only with negatives? No, then realize that is the same case with these people you and the posters like you keep taking to task. I asked you to start naming the mares who are cared for aren't overbred etc you still want to focus on what YOU perceive as showing how bad people are so you look up aged mares consigned to a sale, which a person who actually works on the farms you speak of after telling you firsthand how well cared for they are, told you those mares were out of the sale. The 'consignor' you worked for was probably right, he may have seen a tendency towards negativity even then. Man, all that wasted energy on negativity, yes the negative always takes more energy than the positive well except in a battery.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

LindaB — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:00:15 GMT

katsan - you are right it is nick picking! I am not in Kentucky and I know that there is space for a rescue or two at these "locations." It is all about the horse and the personal responsibility of owners, breeders, trainers, etc. Too many are ending up in slaughter and they don't deserve that. But anyone who is a true lover and protector of these animals who are willing to give us their all, can nick pick any time.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

catnip lane — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:10:52 GMT

LCM, i looked up the sales results on the list of aged mares and every one of them was withdrawn from the sale. Does anyone out there know what happened to them? I'll try to contact the consignor to see what the deal is. I PERSONALLY retire my old mares and let them live out their lives. But, in defense of this - i'm sure i'm stepping off the edge into deep water now - at least they spent significant money and put them into a sale where they had a chance to find a real home. The alternative would have been to take them to the stockyard....

If i find something out from the consignor i'll post it here.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Wanda — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:53:49 GMT

Here's a thought. If you feel so strongly on this subject get a group together and channel all that energy towards making a differince.Pay attention to the headlines on here and other sites and try to be active on this issue.Make yourselves known in a appropiate way and if you talk reasonably people will listen. That's the Canadian way and I'm sure it works in the US too.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Bradgm — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:18:53 GMT

Scot thanks, I also agree with catnip lane, actually the last 4 comments support the views of most horse racing people and once again, how sad they have to be pushed into a corner to defend themselves. Then when they question you all, they suffer further abuse. Nowhere did any of them call you murderers, abusers, cruel, callous and money hungry, yet YOU with the opposing view are the ones who get so upset when questioned about your comments. The breeders, owners and trainers that post on here echo the same sentiment over and over, They love their horses, yet that is questioned. I guess I tend to believe in the good in people and like catnip, katsan, Wanda, tbHorseracingrules, BIG and others and I have seen it first hand. All of them and I as well have said to go to the KY horse farms, take a tour, see if you can go on a tour of the backside. You'll see what all of us are talking about.And as we keep saying there's good and bad in everything but negativity sells better. Some factions have admitted the main reason they target horse racing is because of it's high profile, big money and it gets the attention of the public. If this kind of negativity and attacks keep up they can move the focus elsewhere because that won't be true. What's really disturbing about this is this is published on a reputable horse racing publication and people who read on an infrequent basis, take it for the gospel, of course maybe that and the abolution of racing is what the real agenda is for those who comment negatively and attack the lifeblood of the human element of the racing industry.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

LCM — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:46:27 GMT

Hey Scot, "getting caught up in the negatives?". Really? Or addressing the harsh realities? My target isn't the smaller breeder who tends to have one on one interaction with the horses they own. It is the larger breeding operations and owners that are detached from the individual animals. They are simply a commodity and when the commodity stops producing like MEPACHE did they face a questionable future. It took Royce Clay in OK to ensure MEPACHE a safe retirement, not the multimillionaires in Lexington that prospered off her! Thats not getting caught up in negatives it's just the reality. This INDUSTRY needs to implement a better safety net for both racing and breeding animals PERIOD. It's time for EVERYONE to be responsible. That includes the sales company who stood to profit off of sending those old mares "down the road".

re: The Rest of Their Lives

LCM — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:29:30 GMT

Here's a perfect example of how "loved" these mares are. Does anyone remember this consignment in February 07? Just look at the names and the ages of these GREAT OLD MARES. Wheres the love there?

FAYETTE FARMS, AGENT---Barn 6C-E

Broodmares

152 Galunpe (IRE) 1983 b.m by He Loves Me--Semantic

164 Heaven’s Nook 1984 b.m by Great Above--Nook

188 Laday 1982 b.m by Lyphard--Sale Day

205 Mepache 1981 b.m by Iron Constitution--Nowmepache

249 Proud Encore 1986 b.m by Tri Jet--Forest Murmurs

271 Setting 1983 b.m by Exclusive Native--Round Pearl

298 Syrian Summer 1984 b.m by Damascus--Special Warmth

305 Tis Michelle 1985 gr.m by Native Charger--Noble Royalty

307 Topicount 1985 ch.m by Private Account--Hot Topic

323 Victorian Village 1985 ch.m by L’Emigrant--Sir Ivor’s Sorrow

332 Alydariel 1983 ch.m by Alydar--Crimson Saint

355 Bye the Bye 1984 dkb/b.m by Balzac--Near Bye Lady

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Wanda — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:26:14 GMT

Scot: Your in the office early do you ever sleep? Have a nice day everyone and let's think happy thoughts okay.Man if a guy knew what really went on in the world you'd never leave your house!

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Wanda — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:14:20 GMT

tbHORSERACINGrules: If you are a voice of reason you are a home boy! No worries thanks for the backup.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

catnip lane — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:18:03 GMT

It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made without any statistical evidence to back it up. It would be interesting if someone could obtain reliable data to actually see how many mares die of foaling complications. I live and work in Lexington, KY in the horse industry and in my experience its very rare for a mare to die from foaling complications. It DOES happen occassionally, but it's definitely NOT the usual outcome of breeding old mares.

I invite anyone to come out here and show me the horses living horrible lives and being abused by the breeding industry. I see hundreds of horses every day - mares, foals, yearlings and stallions and what I see are fat healthy animals with beautiful shiny haircoats and a twinkle in their eye. The mares LOVE their foals. The horses receive excellent care - routine vaccines and deworming, proper nutrition, etc. If the horse has an injury or other problem, they receive treatment for whatever is ailing them. Even the mares that have a foal every year are fat and happy, not used up and abused like some you are saying.

I work for 3 different farms and they all have retired mares there. One farm has a huge field full of them along with a young mare that has a chromosomal abnormality and can not produce foals. She has a home for life. Another farm has a blind mare and when she foals, they put a bell on the foal's halter and both are happy.

The vast majority of farms in this area are not the big fancy farms owned by the ultra rich. Most of the farms here are owned by normal everyday people that happen to love horses and want to make a living with them. It's not an easy life - it's full of hard work 7 days a week. In every business there are good people and bad people but the majority of people i've met and worked with here in Lexington are good people that care about their animals.

I also want to mention that in my experience more horses die of colic than complications from foaling. Other more common causes of death are laminitis, trauma, neurologic disease, and the occassional lightning strike.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you what i see in Lexington. Again, if you disagree then you are welcome to come here and show me all the abused animals you say are here in the breeding industry.

Scot's reply: Thanks, catnip lane, for an upbeat response. It's easy to get caught up in negatives but I think your positive comments reflect the general feeling of most of those who are involved in the day-to-day care of horses. Most Thoroughbreds in breeding operations receive unmatched care during their whole lives. On farms large and small, most caretakers are there because they love horses. We all need to be aware of problems within the industry, but we should also celebrate the good that happens every day at Thoroughbred farms across the country and around the world.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:53:20 GMT

easygoer, The irony in my name is that I'm 6'3" not especially heavy but I love the ponies. I'm a handicapper, I'll admit. But I'm a benevolent one who isn't about the bottom line, I'd be in the poorhouse if I looked for it in horse racing. Even when I couldn't bet I'd handicap and go watch them run, still do now. I know a lot of race track people, own and support some retired ponies. Just met a wonderful trainer/breeder at the Spa who commented on the blogs. He does love his horses, has a bunch of retirees on his farm, showed us some pictures. He got so beat up he finally left, even though he's the kind of good guy we need on here. Yes the BREEDERS are making the profit, sometimes and I agree they are most responsible some aren't responsible and some of them do take care of their horses very well, I know a few of those personally as well. Good for you doing what you can, good luck in college, a grad myself. However, preaching to people calling them out and putting them down, telling people how to live their lives isn't taken too well by people when the person doing the telling is just reading about it. You say it's ridiculous to suggest you save these horse, well isn't it just as ridiculous that you demand that everyone in racing take care of every horse out there? As far as 9 mil, it's not that expensive you can do a lot for less than that. No it's not cheap but if you are going to tell everyone how to live their life you better be ready to back it up. I really wish you could get the chance to go to some of these farms in KY or meet some of the good people, they might show you that a lot of them are trying different things and are helping not hurting. Being in college, I'm not sure how old you are but I assume you are old enough to know that there's bad and good both and trust me the people reading this stuff are usually the good guys who actually live horse racing life every day, what you talk about and they try to do whatever they can to do their part. As far as protesting and not supporting racing. Well a lot of tracks are free to get in to and if you don't bet, you aren't really supporting racing, watching yes but not supporting it. Concessions? a small percentage goes to the track,

Julie, I like your points but like someone on another blog kept driving home is that horses and people can't be compared easily. Actually humans can't even be compared easily. My 80 yr old gran had 4 kids, the first 2 a year apart, then 4 years later then 10 years after that. Much harder time between the second and third, the third one nearly died gran was ill too. The accident 10 years later, gran 37 y.o. (43 years ago not too common for an older mother Easy peasy was the way she put it, wished they’d all been so easy to carry and deliver). Gran looks and acts 10 years younger than her friends who had 2 children 3 years apart before age 30, every one is different, just like the mares.

Oh and guess what, just like you talked about mares in the wild, disputing Darryl, same holds true for those in the breeding shed.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

katsan — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:35:23 GMT

I have jobs for a bunch of you who claim to LOVE horses and berate those of us who train, breed and own race horses and say we don't love them. It doesn't pay much because we take care of them ourselves, but you're welcome to share our beans and tortilla's and green chile. Guess what,the majority of you wouldn't last a month. Plus you all love to beat us up too much then of course you all get upset when you are called out. TALK IS CHEAP you all read, listen to negativity and judge us based on your assumptions. J from VA, how dare you make a blanket statement like that, that is just showing your ignorance. That's like saying all single parents are bad parents and don't love their kid because they cost more than they should and the kids can't earn money. Do you realize how ignorant you sound? More times than not they live awful lives? Our horses live better than we do, they NEVER go without, even when we do. I don't know why I bother, you all love the sound of your own voices so much it's pointless. The only reality is the scenario you all have built in your minds regardless of the actuality of it all. That's the reason I love my horses, they have horse sense and aren't judgemental, maybe because they know how much we love them and what good care we take of them.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:20:28 GMT

LCM, touchy touchy, where did I attack you. I said you obviously have a connection to Mimi you've mentioned her several times, so the way you talk on the comments I assumed you were a horse person who had a place to keep them. And actually aren't YOU judging people you don't know. Like Darryl said and you agreed with about MOST breeders NOT having the funds to make sure these mares are taken care of. I also asked you to name the mares who haven't been overbred, who have been well cared for. I never hear the positive, much easier to focus on the negative, I wanted to see if you could give me a positive at all. That is what I said to YOU. In fact I'm a handicapper, however I don't rely on it for my income, just fun, so I'm very pro horse and don't like to see any abused. I bought and support three retired race mares and a gelding with my gambling money, supplemented by my income. Weren't bred but a couple of times because they had trouble with their foals. I guess I would say it's admirable that you spent your last 700 on the mare, but what happens afterwards? You know you and a bunch of others are very quick to judge breeders, trainers, owners and any other racetracker, but when someone makes a comment to you far less judgemental you get really upset. Now you know how they feel when a big bunch are being attacked unfairly without even knowing them.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

J from VA. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:46:06 GMT

The people who breed, train and own these horses do not love them, they love money.

It's such a shame that the horses are the ones that more times than not have to live the awful lives or die the awful deaths for them.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

Chris — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:05:01 GMT

First of all a question.

Wasn't "Secretariat" the 13th foal from "Somethingroyal" ???

I understand that it's always going to be a judgement call on how many foals to allow a mare to have or how old to continue breeding her. But, if they hadn't bred her that many times then our sport wouldn't have had it's greatest performer !!!

Just a thought.

re: The Rest of Their Lives

LCM — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:42:17 GMT

Good to hear from Darryl....the real voice of the breeding industry. At least he admits it! What these debates really lead to is the question: Is the breeding & racing of thoroughbred horses as it stands today a compassionate animal loving sport/business or isn't it? I think it is obvious to say that in most cases it IS NOT. For all the fans out there, it is hard to face the truths about how these horses are bred, raised, raced and sold. After I rescued the horse from the killer buyer at Keeneland I was told by the consignor I was working for "If you love horses that much you shouldn't be working in this business". I was at first appalled he would say something like that, but many years later I realize he was only trying to warn me that this business is full of cruelty and heartbreak. I wish I heeded his advice a long time ago. Maybe someone out there "exploring" this business via these forums will take his advice to heart. For the others that think they can help change things, thats great. I wish them success!