Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

Jonesing for the Roses

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:45:46 GMT

Larry Jones has two standout colts vying for a spot in the 2009 Kentucky Derby. Friesan Fire and Old Fashioned are worthy favorites -- and this just might be the year for Jones to take the big prize.

Brownie Gets Big Book

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:39:33 GMT

Three-year-old champion racehorse Big Brown starts his stud service the same way he began his career at the track -- with feats worthy of headlines. He's booked to some of the best Thoroughbred broodmares in America.

Anak Nakal Puts It All Together

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 03:39:14 GMT

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Archipenko Worth a Million for an Old Mare

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:52:13 GMT

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re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

GSOBadger — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:21:25 GMT

I was thrilled to see Super Dixie win first out at Emerald yesterday. I thought she had one of the most fascinating pedigrees in the Keeneland sale last year, but no one wanted her. She's by Dixie Union out of Youcan'ttakeme by He's Tops. Dixie Union is out of She's Tops, who is a 3/4 sister to He's Tops. She's by Capote, he's by Seattle Slew, and both are out of the Mr. Prospector mare She's a Talent. She's Tops was the best racer out of She's a Talent, being a G2 stakes winner. Youcan'ttakeme is one of the two best racers by the unraced He's Tops - the other being her full brother, Longacres Mile winner No Giveaway. In addition to being a two-time Washington-bred champion, and four time stakes winner, Youcan'ttakeme was good enough to score impressively in allowance company at Keeneland as a 2 year old. So Super Dixie is inbred 2X2 to 3/4 siblings, being the best racing daughter and best sire son of She's a Talent, and does so through the best sire in the family, Dixie Union, and the best racing daughter of He's Tops. It will be interesting to follow her career going forward. Given past history, don't be surprised if Mr. Sarkowsky brings her east if she continues to run well.

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

Dawna — Mon, 19 May 2008 23:30:23 GMT

Libbischoice, some very good points. An excellent graphic by Scott Dudley illustrates in a kind of "pie chart" which sire's bloodlines today trace back to each of these 3 foundation sires. A very small slice each can be attributed to the Byerly Turk and the Godolphin Arabian, and their direct male descendents are hard to come by. The Darley male line is overwhelmingly dominant in today’s pedigrees, and approximately half of the major Darley-line stallions are concentrated under Phalaris. Within this group, the primary sire lines are Northern Dancer, Nasrullah (including Bold Ruler and thus Seattle Slew), and Mr. Prospector.

There’s still some room to “outcross” within the Darley slice to non-Phalaris sons, such as those tracing to Teddy (via Damascus), Ribot, Round Table, and Peter Pan through Ack Ack. But the Bay Ronalds, Hyperions, Swynfords and Ben Brushes have pretty much lost their vigour as sire lines and have no prominent descendants.

Research seems to indicate that many sire lines fade after a time, often turning up as great broodmare sire lines (witness Man o’ War) before eventually losing potency altogether. It doesn't help that mostly great performers are kept for stud, thereby eliminating many potentially strong carriers of the genetics who simply didn't have the individual characteristics needed to succeed on the track.

But even though there are very few sires remaining that trace on top to the Godolphin Arabian and the Byerly Turk, important attributes are carried forward by their daughters. And a very wide variety of mares was used at the founding of the breed.

If only it paid to preserve genetics. Unfortunately, only speed gets paychecks in the racing industry, and the Thoroughbred is after all about racing at its core.

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

libbischoice — Sun, 18 May 2008 03:30:20 GMT

There is a certain breeding line that does pass on these traits of unsoundness &trend. I am Far Far from an expert on TB Bloodlines but I am very interested in having a good base to defend racing against the many people who are opening their mouths & spouting rhetoric. Just to start with the "right under our noses idea” has any one brought up the fact that Eight Bells & Barbaro are related & that you can eventually trace them back to the "Darley Arabian". Just to touch lightly on some samples from the 3 main sires TB's descended from 1)"The Godolphin Arabian" (includes Man O'War a horse that won 20 of 21 races as a 3 yr old & was weighted at times up to 138lbs ... lived to 30 & as far as I’ve researched never had any soundness issues...) 2)"The Byerly Turk" (includes the likes of Wise Counselor, Good Luck, My Babu, Cantab & Cancottage ... Horses that are known for their strong jumping talent & stamina ) Last but not least 3) The DarleyArabian" (includes Star Shoot, Sir Barton, Mr. Prospector, Nearctic, Northern Dancer.... All of these have suffered from soundness issues... I know the incredible extent of inbreeding that exists... but just through "light" research it seems that the Historically stronger racehorses have a good strong vein that traces back to the Godolphin Arabian and or the Byerly Turk and the Champions showing the Darley Arabian on both top & bottom lines at least to through 5th parentage set had brilliant but brief careers... Even Big Brown Who is

"The Man" as far as I'm concerned has soundness issues...(yes I know they've said hoof related... but a weakness in one area forces the body to compensate & overall damage is not always quick to be seen) His Bloodlines ? Darley top & Bottom...blessing is some influx from Godolphin Line that appears both in his 3rd set on dam’s side & sires side. Though brilliant he will retire to stud after the Belmont... 6 races... not really the soundness test that Man O'War exhibited.

Some great info can be gleaned from www.tbheritage.com/

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

Elena — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:59:05 GMT

OKAY. I have Big Brown's pedigree. I see blue and pink boxes, which are the outcross. Is the outcross a different line? Please help me understand this. It is so important to me and I want to know more about pedigrees.

Scot's reply: Elena, if you're looking at the five-cross pedigree box on www.pedigreequery.com, those colored boxes (the colors change every time you generate a pedigree) represent inbreeding. All pinks will correspond to Northern Dancer, for example, or all greens to Damascus. The colored boxes (or bolded names, or other notations depending on the pedigree format) are just a way to visually identify inbreeding within five generations.

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

steve — Tue, 06 May 2008 06:00:27 GMT

The Raise A Native, Mr. Prospector cross breeding has been termed (Coffin Bones) for this specific reason. I think anyone that persues this type of breeding should be eliminated from the industry.

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

Bubba Wrenn — Mon, 05 May 2008 18:34:57 GMT

I think the pedigree of Big Brown is a mastery of genius.

However, if you examine the bloodline of the poor filly, Eight Belles, you'll see too much in-breeding to Raise a Native on one side. I was particularly dismayed to see Mr. Prospector bred to an Exclusive Native mare. Raise a Native, Prospector, and Exclsive Native all broke down at a very young age with led issues.

Kentucky Derby Winner, Guaranteed

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 01 May 2008 21:10:41 GMT

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re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

Patuxet — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:25:15 GMT

An inbreeding pattern in Big Brown's pedigree which particularly interests me begins in the third generation of his second dam, Miasma, wherein there appears to be an attempt to reproduce the pedigree of European classic contender, King Pellinore, 2nd in the Irish Derby and English St. Leger etc. Later in CA I saw him win the Oak Tree Invitational and run 2nd in the Sunset and San Luis Rey.

King Pellinore was by Round Table out of Thong, daughter of the great matriarch Rough Shod and Nantallah. Miasma's damsire is Lear Fan. Lear Fan's damsire Lt. Stevens is a full brother to the aforementioned Thong. Miasma's 2nd dam is SW Friendly Circle by Round Table which yields a 3/8's in blood to King Pellinore.

Miasma is then bred to Nureyev whose dam, Special, is a half sister to King Pellinore. This produces Big Brown's dam, Mien, and makes her inbred 4 x 5 to Rough Shod, aka a Rasmussen Factor (RF).

The 2nd dam of Boundary, the sire of Big Brown, is SW Ponte Vecchio by Round Table. When Boundary is bred to Mien in Big Brown's pedigree it layers Round Table on Thong and again recreates the breeding of King Pellinore.

While at first glance Big Brown appears on the surface to simply be inbred 4 X 5 to Round Table when one looks deeper there seems to be a conscious effort to preserve and intensify the genetic influences which led to the distance-loving King Pellinore. This suggests Big Brown may well have a handy stamina reservoir to draw on in a classic race.

www.pedigreequery.com/big+brown

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

Patuxet — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:07:45 GMT

An inbreeding pattern in Big Brown's pedigree which particularly interests me begins in the third generation of his second dam, Miasma, wherein there ‘appears to be an attempt to reproduce the pedigree of European classic contender, King Pellinore, 2nd in the Irish Derby and English St. Leger etc,

King Pellinore was by Round Table out of Thing, daughter of the great matriarch Rough Shod and Nantallah. Miasma's damsire is Lear Fan. Lear Fan's damsire Lt. Stevens is a full brother to the aforementioned Thong. Miasma's 2nd dam is SW Friendly Circle by Round Table which yields a 3/8's in blood to King Pellinore.

Miasma is then bred to Nureyev whose dam, Special, is a half sister to Pellinore. This produces Big Brown's dam, Mien, and makes her inbred 3 x 4 to Rough Shod, aka a Rasmussen Factor (RF).

The 2nd dam of Boundary, the sire of Big Brown, is SW Ponte Vecchio by Round Table' When Boundary is bred to Mien in Big Brown's pedigree it layers Round Table on Thong and again recreates the breeding of King Pellinore.

re: Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

catnip lane — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:31:15 GMT

so if i'm understanding you correctly, I have a foal that is 2x5 to Gay Sonnet. She may not race well but should be a good producer when bred to outcrosses?

Scot's response: Well... it's not really so straightforward. More than 40% of American Thoroughbreds in 2008 have "some" inbreeding. 2x5 is fairly significant, although usually you'd want inbreeding to be to an exceptional sire or dam. What's special about Big Brown's pedigree is the pattern of inbreeding, with crosses of several strong ancestors on both his top and bottom.

Inbreeding, and Why Big Brown's Looking Good Beyond May 3

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:42:29 GMT

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