Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 03:46:00 GMT

Hope you get back in, in some way shape or form, sounds like you have the passion for it. It's a tough job if you do it right. I'm semi retired now, do the books, mess with the mares and foals and tell my other half how to do his training job, or so he says.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

marc w — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:07:52 GMT

Thanks for your insight-IF and when I retire and if in good health I have stated I will either be a Jock's agent or play (train) with a few horses on my own. Breeding is probably out of the question though I love looking at the stats and how my selections work out.

I think you are in a very unique position having a farm and training, for you it makes sense. I do know that the first thing I informed my partner that if he wanted me to go in I was not going to be with a trainer that won 4 races of 212 starts in the past 2 years-We called them gypsies in my day. He was cheap-very-and his record showed it. I transfered my money pit to a leading trainer who quite honestly I think was a juice trainer, my half I was 25K out and hadn't hit the board but had a least shown some talent and speed-we got a couple placings and 2 wins (Fort Erie not Woodbine) then sold him for less (much 1/8) than we paid-remember I had him in training for a year before he raced-a very big hole to get out-I think he is racing bottoms at Penn National and hasn't won in 2 years.

On paper I look to have made money on the rest although as above on my last horse-it really looks better than it ended up. I had a friend who does win a fair amount of races if not a super high percentage (about 12%)take my horses. Bob Tiller and Reade Bsker although I knew them before they became stars and was friendly with both, are out of my range now.

My ex-partner has now got a deal with him $1100 and a 40-60 deal--no cheapies though--15-25K claimers an arrangement which they are both happy with.

When commenting originally I was talking about a newbie who wants to move from just a racing fan making an average $40-60K wage getting in, not someone with a farm or a trainer-----for them I advise great caution and research. The $4K mare and $3K stud give the impression it is not that expensive-it is much more than the opening 10K!

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:51:47 GMT

Marc,

We also train, that's why I take exception to some of your comments. I also was around some of the biggest names in the game as a youngster when we owned horses, some of them were our trainers. We're talking hall of fame here. I don't blame you for losing interest if you don't get to see your horses run. We're fortunate enough to have a couple of places where we raise our own so we don't have that cost, also raise our own alfalfa. What I think I take exception to is the assumption that because the day rate is cheaper, the care is worse. I gripe about how much stuff costs here but know it's cheaper than a lot of places so can give very good care at a lower cost. Luckily we are still very much of an agrarian state here so we can get good help, although not a lot of it. Also the 4 horses per person, that might be a little low especially if you aren't riding your own. I have family who rodeo have 10 horses, full time jobs, manage to feed twice a day, clean the stalls, practice roping ride every horse every day and there's just 2 of them, plus hauling to rodeos breaking 2 colts. They're young and energetic have a great setup with their own arena, lights great facilities. As far as cost, I would say do some research on costs in an area you want to be in. Mine would be slightly skewed because we have our own horse farm, own several broodmares already. The training thing, there's some trainers (more than ever I think) that will work a deal with you for partnerships. I know the sales are way down right now but you know it's usually cyclical. I have to say that my family did very well as owners many years ago and we have some that are doing well now. The tax structure is different in Canada I assume but for the most part everyone we're connected with loves the game and aren't in it to get rich, wrong place to do it.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

marc w — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:11:27 GMT

Katsan,

I am only going from personal experience as one who has owned "racing horses". I did work on a small breeding farm doing work on weekends and mornings before I went to high school.

I also trained my own a bit but then I tagged along while working for a "name trainer" and got huge breaks as far as upkeep.

The last few years -10yrs-I took a job in AL where there is no horse racing yet had horses I owned racing at Woodbine. The bills killed me, as I was not exactly racing stars. $5K claimers cost just as much as $25K to train so I stepped up near the end. I did OK but without the thrill of seeing them race live-the risk did not warrant me staying in the business no matter how much I liked it.

You may disagree with some of my comments which you have every right to do so, but this is from my own personal experience. Yours may be different-hopefully you are and were more successful than me. At the end I think I only was about 6 or 7K in the arrears after 6yrs and 8 or 9 horses-4 in partnership with a friend on the whole it wasn't too bad. Would love to brag I made money and if you looked at the figures you would have thought so as I really only made one mistake on my claims and buys. (actually my partner made it buying an unraced well bred 3 yr old that took a year to get to the races-he did win twice but only after sending him to a very expensive trainer)

I "really" am interested to know what the cost from buying a mare and hopefully she would catch and breed then the 3 or more years until you could race if all went well.

Please also note by looking at any sires record-many foals don't even make it to the races-even less run at 2yrs.

IF? I ever return to owning I definitely would only buy a 2 yr old horse ready to run or another claimer. The only real good profit I have made in the last number of years was to claim a "rent a horse" where they were claimed right back off me and I made profit on the claiming price and quick purse or part. (Like a trick I learned off a friend of mine-Reade Baker who is doing quite well in Canada-He claimed barn pets where he knew the previous owner would claim him right back when he first started out.)

He is also a great example of how your costs could be controlled as he galloped horses for a big outfit while owning his first few-so a major expense was avoided. That is how he started and is now one of the leading trainers in Canada. Bob Tiller who was just elected to the Hall of Fame there started the same way sort of being a groom for a big outfit and having a few of his own.

I love the game, and there is few greater thrills seeing your horse win-I certainly would imagine more-so if you breed them yourself. I just know it is like buying Golf Clubs--The initial expense is minor if you really like the game and play a lot. Memberships to clubs and green fees cost much more. The $500 cost for the bag, balls, and clubs will be greatly surpassed every year you play. That doesn't include time taken to arrange foursomes, lessons carts, and the rounds of drinks, meals you have after playing. One has always got to look at the big picture.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:50:21 GMT

Marc,

That's a lot to ask of someone to research and figure that out. I didn't say it was 'cheap' anywhere, just not as cost prohibitive in some other circuits and you can get some of the best outfits in NM, TX, AZ for a lot less than the day rate in California and NY. Just like the cost of living is higher in those places so is the cost of horse racing. Maybe breeding isn't the way for you to go, maybe a claimer, partnership or 2 yr old in training auction. I don't agree with a lot of your statements but that's your opinion.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Marc W — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:17:21 GMT

Frank,

Although it was answered when I was using the mares Mint Copy and Pas de Nom (Whom I had cheering interest in both-Mint Copy was trained by someone I knew and walked the other mare when I worked as kid for Franky Merrill Jr for 3 summer breaks from school) as examples of "throwing" Deputy Minister and Danzig it was the fact that thees were the "mothers or mares" that produced those great sires/racehorses. In the use of Pas de Nom I was there when she won the Inferno Stakes as a two yr old @5F---my memory slipped a bit as she never run well in Canada or for Frank again but was sold and was successful in the US at a later date for another trainer-so I am wrong in thinking her a cheaper mare level--she was a Admiral Voyage foal, which at the time was certainly not elite breeding.

I do use her to reflect with the fact that Danzig lived a long life for a thoroughbred and I walked her as a kid, to note how long I have been around horses.

To another post/posts suggesting statebred programs

Question to one better informed than me

OK Texas, LA, NM, PA or whatever----lets say the mare cost $5K and the sire the same $10K opening costs--NOW

WITHOUT CUTTING TOO MANY CORNERS-this means a farm where they are well cared for and get good feed----where they are broken--- (for Frank where they learn to allow people to saddle & ride them)then train them for months to get to the races+ vet bills + vitamins + shoeing + nomination and sustaining fees (Dreaming of going to the KY Derby or Breeders Cup???) + registration fees+ buying racing colors-Treating them or getting them into the Lasix program (face it, it is a reality look at any race program today).

HOW MUCH ARE YOU OUT BY THE HORSES FIRST RACE????? ---Honestly I am out of touch for breeding a horse in the last ten years and don't know. I WOULD LIKE TO -- PLEASE ANSWER

Caveat to that answer--- I want a job well done and reasonably-not just cheap---I know lots of cheap trainers-they wait for lower tier riders to gallop their horses for mounts in the afternoon if they don't show up they don't go out. If they do, you are riding a jock that doesn't win many races. Other problems-buy budget feed, borrow equipment because they don't have the needed in their barn, and either try to train and groom by themselves (any more than 4 is not good for one person in my opinion at a racetrack), or have bad help that big outfits wouldn't hire. et. et. et.----

PLEASE GIVE A ESTIMATE IN ANY STATE READY FOR FIRST START AS 2 YR OLD IN JULY. (ABOUT 20% MAKE IT???? I am maybe way too high)

WHAT ARE THE ADDED COSTS TO THE 10K

???????????? Use July 1st start.

Jock fees and trainer percentages come later-not to mention I always tip the groom and hot walkers because I appreciated it when I was in their position. (I also if I was betting gave the Jock a $50 win ticket in the paddock)

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:14:25 GMT

Actually the mama raced through her 5yo year into early 6 then took her off the track to use as a broodmare, still sound last foal at 17, so every other year she had a foal.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:48:42 GMT

Qatmom,

I'm not sure I completely agree. One of the best fillies we ever had was the sweetest thing you ever saw. She was bottle fed for the first 2 weeks due to an Rh factor with the mare.(talked about this before) She was a pet, sweet natured, but put her on the racetrack and she ran her heart out every time, won some minor stakes races. Her mother was the same but was a claimer who had 32 starts in her career, raced until 5 had 10 wins, 16 place, 5 shows finished out of the money once when she nearly got knocked down had 5 foals lived til 34. All the others were Alpha males, never did a thing on the track but the undersized sweetheart filly inherited her mama's heart. I've heard about others like that as well. I think it depends more on heart and desire my thoughts anyway.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Qatmom — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:18:38 GMT

I have another question about temperament. In a broodmare intended to produce racehorses, I want a tough, brazen, bossy mare who wants to be at the top of the pecking order in any herd. She can be quite easy to handle by people, but out in the field, I want her to tell everybody else what to do. She'll put this personality on her foals. The last thing I want is a timid mare, although she might make a wonderful riding horse. As in so many other things, character counts. I've dealt with a pair of full sisters who temperamentally day and night--the younger, bold one at 2 bossed around her older 3 y o sister in the field, and on the training track once tried to bite her when the 3 y o galloped alongside her. The timid mare was fast--by herself. In company, in a race, she ran at the back to be safe. (Fortunately, I owned the younger, brazen sister, and not the timid one.)

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Frank J. — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:06:30 GMT

tbHORSERACINGrules, katsan:

Thanks very much for your responses and I will look up those books on the sit, thanks again!

Frank

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:51:34 GMT

Don't know if Frank got an answer but throw means give birth to a foal.

There's a great web site that gives all the horse racing terminology, Horse racing glossary not much on breeding aspect. I saw another trainer on here recommend a book from Exclusively Equine here on the Blood Horse. It's called "New Thoroughbred Owners Handbook" TOBA for around $5. There's a lot of good books on there for beginners but this one tells about pedigree, costs, races just a lot of interesting stuff for a beginner. Also one of our handicappers who posts, I think Jordan said he has a virtual stable set up thru Equibase and it gives workouts, entries etc. HAVE FUN!!!

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

tbHORSERACINGrules — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:32:46 GMT

Frank J

The usual term is throws an athletic foal etc. Basically the term throws a Danzig means gives birth to a foal by that sire.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Tony Kelso — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:31:37 GMT

Hello Marc and all:

I know people who form partnerships and CLAIM horses (they use Tom Amoss as their trainer). They nearly won one of the Claiming Crown races at Canterbury this year, and have already cleared two allowance conditions with their latest horse, Tempo Five, who they claimed for $25,000 in 2007.

This approach has two benefits:

(1) Generally the horse in question has shown it can run.

(2) There are much lower lead costs and set up times that going with yearlings.

IF there were no interest in claiming, then I would recommend buying a few "low end" yearlings at Keeneland September between $5,000 and $10,000 each with the hope that one or two would turn out to be runners. Being extra sneaky, people could buy lower priced yearlings that would qualify for possible "state-bred" purse enhancements (New York, Florida, Maryland, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, California).

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Julie L. — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:36:02 GMT

I think that this mare, Stellar Time, has a very nice pedigree and living in California if I bought her after some consideration I've decided that I would send her to Salt Lake a son of Deputy Minister and the sire of 53 stakeswinners, he also currently has 132 runners with 76 of those being winners and with his average per runner being $58,000 I think that his $10,000 stud fee would be justified.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Huh — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:33:28 GMT

Stellar Time is definetely a broodmare because like every female horse she deserves her shot in the breeding shed.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Frank J. — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:22:37 GMT

Marc W. (or anyone that has any info.) I usually don't read this blog but am a racing fan. I just was curious by what you meant by a horse "throwing" Deputy Minister or "throwing" Danzig. Thanks for any info. Much of this stuff is Chinese to me but I still enjoy reading it!!

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:07:07 GMT

Sorry I should have said RAISE purses.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

katsan — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:04:21 GMT

Marc,

The 'cheap' mare could be bred to a local stud and qualify for the added money for state breds. All race tracks have that added money. Maybe the foal wouldn't hit the big time but could pick up some money in some of the smaller circuits where costs aren't nearly as prohibitive. Stan Fulton has worked wonders at Sunland Park and they consistently race purses at each meet. Most are in racing as a hobby but I know a lot who have actually made money at lower levels.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Qatmom — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:32:38 GMT

I would like to know what kind of disposition this mare has. I saw Halo at Windfields wearing a muzzle, and I recall Sunday Silence going to the post with a CHAIN OVER HIS GUMS, the only classic winner I can recall being handled this way. This mare is a granddaughter of Halo. Disposition counts. Horses can hurt you without trying--you don't want one that MAY be trying to hurt you. An ill-tempered animal will make everything done with and to them more difficult and dangerous.

Scot's reply: I've not seen the mare so I can't give an opinion. When I talked to the seller earlier in the week, she noted that Stellar Time has a good disposition (and she was quick to point out some behavior quirks of other horses we discussed, so I got the impression that she was being upfront). As you indicate, certain bloodlines are known for bad dispositions -- but every horse is an individual. I have a yearling daughter of the Halo horse David Copperfield and she is the gentlest and most loving horse I've ever worked with. (Her pedigree.) In fact, I decided to keep her as my riding horse/lead pony.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Chris — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:48:19 GMT

Although...

If such a thing ever could happen I would prefer to "Breed" our own and do it right from the start. Especially since we all seem to have a good take on bloodlines and what to look for.

Besides...What a story it would be if if and if !!!

Just a thought !!!

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Chris — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:39:28 GMT

Sounds like all of us who post on here should be forming our own Syndicate. A Syndicate for the working class. The real fans of the sport.

If we got 100 people to each own 1% or 1 share and each put up only $100.00 to start and $100.00 per month, then within 6 months we could all go to a sale and get a Triple Crown or future Stallion Prospect for $50,000-$60,000 and finally have a real shot at the sport like other Syndicates Dogwood and West Point.

I know I know....DREAMING.

Just a thought !!!

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Marc W — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:43:59 GMT

I love breeding topics and spent many years working on Canadian tracks-Mint Copy who threw Deputy Minister I believe ran in a 6K claimer (she got better when she tried turf but was never even a good allowance horse). I was around the mare that threw Danzig (she was in the Frank Merill barn) and after an early good 3 starts @ 2 she couldn't get close once the stretched to 6F. Yes you can get a good broodmare cheap, and many of the lower price stallions mentioned have good merit.

THE PROBLEM IS costs for care, shipping, vets for the mare then for both. IF you sell the foal as a yearling or weanling the price probably won't be high. (unless you or a pinhooker gets him to work a fast 1/4 or 1/8 at 2yr.) If you keep and race there are breaking costs then training with no guarantee making the races-then if he does, having any talent.

Sorry for the gloom and doom but if you don't own a farm or are in the business it is a long haul and expensive gamble. The $4000 mare and the $5000 stud are nothing to the other costs. I no longer work at, or near a racetrack, my last horse I bought privately for $8K he won over $41K in the year I had him and was claimed for $17.500 last Oct.. Looks good??? After shipping vets and trainer I showed a profit of $4500. That is my exit as a horse owner until I retire from my "real job" and can go back in my retirement to the track.

Breeding a cheap mare is only for those owning a farm or the wealthy due to reward vs. risk. In this day and age I would suggest a multi-level partnership where you buy a number of like mentioned mares expenses are reduced by volume and are shared among many and you have more than one chance to hit gold.

Again sorry about being gloomy, and love breeding talk and this site, I read my BH mag as soon as it comes and actually like the ads for studs sales results almost as well as the articles. I would love to be in the game, but it is just too expensive. I am in an upper income bracket to many (150K+ before taxes) please don't take that as a boost because it is not that impressive in the racing game. I can't afford it and put my son through school, mortgage, et. so how does the normal $15 a hour person do it?

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Wanda — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:31:30 GMT

Thanks Scot for responding to Sandra's comment. If I may say that given the imfo on the mare I for one never thought she wasn't in training. If you breed a mare,(and she's confirmed in foal) and you keep her in training you have to post that in the race office if she's running for a tag. I don't understand why you would throw out the word "steroid" in here. I'm baffled why you would think that.

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

TJluvsTIZ's — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:38:54 GMT

Tony Kelso,

I am a huge Tiznow fan and especially a big fan of his offspring!

Your comment is spot on! The majority of the races across the country are from the 6.5F and down. If I am looking at calculations only (which I placed myself with the first comment) I would see that Stellar Time has a DI of 3.31 which would show some decent speed influence. Breeding this mare to a horse which brings more stamina would allow the foal as a 2YO to succeed in the sprint races, as most horses show their Brilliant speed early on, and then possibly make the jump to a mile later in their racing campaigns. Again, if I am only focused on calculations a good source that I have used is www.chef-de-race.com/.../stats_2008.htm. This gives a solid breakdown of average winning distances vs. Average Dosage Index (and CD).

re: Is This a Broodmare: Stellar Time

Sandra — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:49:59 GMT

You failed to check on the most important issue---

Is she breeding sdound....$4,000 seems too low for her quality, however, it is a depressed market right now. The farm she is at probably could not get her in foal in 08, another issue that is related to steroids...

Scot's reply: You bring up an important point: it's always necessary to have a thorough veterinary exam when purchasing bloodstock. In this case, I don't believe breeding the mare in 2008 was an option. She ran races in January, February, March, April, and May -- with the last race on May 28, at the tail end of the breeding season.