Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

sherpa — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:19:55 GMT

I've been following a son of Broad Brush named Encaustic with great interest. He is 6, so would've come out of BB's last full crop iirc. It's difficult to tell for sure from watching race videos, but I think he has a look of his sire. And he's a Horse!

Encaustic wins and wins, but unfortunately not the big graded stakes. Still, I hope some wise soul will stand him when he retires and give him some top mares.

Scot's reply: Encaustic is a full brother to Include (SRO). The cross of Broad Brush with their dam, the Stop the Music mare Illeria, produced six foals, all of them at least stakes-placed. Encaustic should have some interest as a stud when he retires -- he's got a respectable pedigree and a solid record of 45 starts, multiple stakes wins, and victories from 5.5 to 8.5 furlongs. I'm with you -- I'd like to see him get a good chance at stud.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

Brian Kerr — Sat, 01 May 2010 11:22:46 GMT

As with Secretariat, I am discovering that the strength of the Domino line through Broad Brush is coming through his daughters. NOTE: Blind Luck just won the Grade 1 Kentucky Oaks yesterday. Her great-grandsire is........... Broad Brush. I always followed Broad Brush's daughters, and they are now producing! Dynazaper just won the Edgewood at Churchill. She is a granddaughter of BB. I think it is a shame that we still value the male line over the female line. It takes two to tango, and Broad Brush's strength is in his female side. He is not a sire-of-sires, but a sire of great dams.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

david yost — Sun, 04 Apr 2010 19:47:32 GMT

i have a 6 year old daughter of mongoose named sweetgoose,and im sorry to hear her sire left the states.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

Bradgm — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:38:26 GMT

Scot, saw your colt who goes back to Broad Brush didn't do so well at the sale. Any idea as to what happened? I know the market was bad but seems like an Honour and Glory would have done a little better even this late in the sale. I did see an earlier picture way back early in August, did he just not fill out or grow? Sorry man.

Scot's reply: Thanks for the kind words. Yeah, it was disappointing, but I was happy the colt found a new home with a reputable outfit. I'll feel vindicated when I watch him win his first stakes! I've just posted a few comments about the state of the yearling market -- would love to get your thoughts on where the market is headed.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

jj — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:10:37 GMT

Psht he didn't do so well here anyway. Didn't run too well or sell to well so what are we really losing? With a typical 35 mares covered these last two years it's not a surprise they'd let him go.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

Anna — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:36:08 GMT

His foals didn't do much here, anyway. I hope he does well there. Honour and Glory is a good example; he does better outside the U.S., even though he is primarily based here. Silver Buck moved and became a great sire. Not that he didn't have success before leaving, but he grew in stature!

Some horses are meant to be in different countries. Though, quite honestly, I don't think Trippi should've been sold. :(

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

RF — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:33:47 GMT

Truth is, as good of a sire as Broad Brush was, he almost never sired a son with much "racing charisma". Those that went to stud were offered opportunities in line with their perceived racetrack performance and haven't improved on those expectations (unlike, for example, many *Turn-To line stallions). It's still a bit too early to tell if Include is the exception. Similar can be said of the sons of Dynaformer thus far, but his best living son, Dynever, went to Saudi Arabia. There was one rather obscure son of Broad Brush who particularly appealed to me-demonstrated great ability, raced with a flair, and was bred to my liking. His name was World Light, but injury compromised his career, and he became only stakes-placed. I did attempt later to acquire him for stud duty, but discovered he had been gelded for a show career. The real problem is that too few breeders/buyers are sufficient students/followers of the sport, particularly the racing aspect, to get a good fix on the real merits (abilities) of these future stallion prospects. They, instead, do little more than follow the accepted rough outline.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

HayPatchersGroom — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:59:15 GMT

I worked for Bud Delp in the mid to late 70's. Hay Patcher was one of his better horses at the time. She wasn't a graded stakes kind of horse, but she was right at home in non-graded filly/mare sprints. She was nothing but pure heart and absolute class. She wasn't a touchy-feely kind of horse, but every pore oozed class and commanded respect. She was very willing - not at all mean and very steady. I loved her for her valiant nature and honesty. I was so proud to see her son, Broad Brush, do so well both on the track and in the breeding shed. I've watched his sons and daughters closely for years, knowing they all carried Hay Patcher's blood. I'm saddened to hear Mongoose is leaving the country, but it may be a blessing in disguise. Only time will tell. Kudos to Hay Patcher for giving us such a stellar son!

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

cah — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:24:41 GMT

I am certainly not in favor of the 'extra large book' sires and shy away from it for my own mares. So not cool to have to go up against 30 or more of the same sire at a yearling sale! Unless. of course, you know your horse is in the top five percent :)

Concorde's Tune has been a very good sire to Ocala Stud but I'm not sure whether you can compare when he has been at stud thirteen years longer than Mongoose. His first two-year-olds raced in 1998. Lifetime crop earnings work out to be around 1.7 million a year, which is an awesome number, but is that every year for the last ten years or did he have super years for the last four, five or six years. I don't have access to that information.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

BTJake — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:52:18 GMT

Amen to the Johannesburg comment...which is a great example of how extra-huge books of mares can often deceive the "consumer"...if there are 300 foals from two crops and one very newsworthy Grade 1 winner that inflates the sire's stats - that will attract a lot of poorly informed breeders/buyers.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

Elaine — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:17:34 GMT

Mongoose stood in the competitive FL market at a reasonable fee. Also at that fee, Concorde's Tune, $30,000 median earnings, same CI of 1.1 and his AEI is 1.3 vs. Mongoose's 0.75. Not too mention a higher % of starters, winners, and solid black type production. And a solid but not awesome 20 - 30 mares/yr. What exactly should I wait for? All things being equal, should you bred to Mongoose or Concorde's Tune? Comparing value for dollar and analysing stats are inpartial ways of evaluating stallions. Hoping Mongoose is successful because he is by Broad Brush doesn't change reality. And large books actually make it worse to evaluate stallions. Because of his huge #s, I can't say if I really like Johannesburg.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

BTJake — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:14:28 GMT

His current stats indicate that a large percentage of his racing aged foals have started (72%) so we're seeing a decent sampling of his babies. 48% have won, which is far below average...but can be attributed to few crops and some 2 yr olds not winning. But what we see is they are not winning "quality" races...which is reflected in his poor AEI...and as was mentioned earlier...most mares bred to him have done far better with other stallions.

If he had seen 100+ mares, he might have had a good one or two. But that still wouldn't necessarily have been much to cheer about.

Don't get me wrong...I love this line and pray for a savior for it. Mongoose is not that horse.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

cah — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:27:59 GMT

I'm not quite sure why the 'bigger picture' is not being brought into play as far as Mongoose's available opportunity is concerned. His first year at stud was 2003. When his two-year-olds hit the track he, up until then, had only 47 foals to his credit. Obviously, not all of them would have made it to the track, so take off another percentage and maybe 20-25 did? In 2006(11), 2007(18) and 2008(17) live foals were recorded. I think it a little unfair to cast a failure tag on him at this early stage, considering the numbers. Maybe if he had had the 100+ mares bestowed upon other stallions in their first three years and subsequently didn't come up with the goods, then we could say he is a failure.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

ROBERT — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:47:41 GMT

Broad Brush should have more than 2 or 3 useful sons after the mares that were bred to him in his later years at stud. He will probably go down as a broodmare sire, but loosing a stallion like Mongoose did not help his cause. If Mongoose hits in South America, it won't be long before his offspring make their way north to take on American bred horses. I agree with the writer who says Toughness and Stamina are needed in our breeding programs. Whether or not Mongoose was going to be a source of those traits remains to be seen. More than likely "Include" will be the successor to Broad Brush and carry on the Domino line for at least the next 10 or 15 years.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

Elaine — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:19:22 GMT

Mongoose had 1 black type winner, median earnings under $13,000, and dragged the average mares he was bred to down 25%. Why would anyone be sorry he has been sold overseas? He had an opportunity and failed to take advantage of it.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

BTJake — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:55:43 GMT

That said...go Include!

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

BTJake — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:55:23 GMT

I love the Domino line (so much so that we have some Ack Ack mares and a Broad Brush mare)...but for a stud to become popular for breed to race types OR for the commercial breeder, the horse has to prove himself. Sadly, he just wasn't doing that well as a sire of race horses. As much as I would love to see a resurgence of the Domino stud line...that alone is not a good enough reason to keep hoping that a stud that hasn't shown so much as a glimmer will be the savior of the line. And I mean no disrespect to the horse.

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

cah — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:35:40 GMT

Mongoose was a good looking individual but unfortunately fell into that 'not commercial enough' category that is alive and well in the thoroughbred industry. If I could breed to race only, I think he would have gone well with my Open Forum mare. A shame indeed!

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

Triple Crown Karen — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:37:52 GMT

The DOMINO line is well know for producing hard knocking DURABLE horses. NOW, when we need to breed that kind of horse the most, we're sending another one out....Shame on US for not taking the longer view of the future of the Toughness and Stamina of the AMERICAN Thoroughbred. I hope some smart SMALL breeder(read NOT just a "market breeder") keeps this line going......

re: Broad Brush's U.S. Line Suffers Setback

da3hoss — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:42:05 GMT

Sadly, it seems trendy breeding is the fashion, so it's probably much better this nice stallion goes somewhere that his bloodlines are wanted...