Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

MikeM — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:09:31 GMT

Rough'n Tumble came from a modest background and didn't wow them on the track either but was one of those horses that has influenced the breed.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

MikeM — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:41:16 GMT

I dont understand Holy Bulls fee.

His foals sell well,his race horses race and win at the highest level and it looks like his sons are becoming pretty good stallions in there own right.

Scot's reply: Mike, I'm with you. I suspect that there's some prejudice against Holy Bull because of his offbeat five-cross pedigree. Not many sires out there by Great Above, or from the Rough'n Tumble line. Nor with Al Hattab as a broodmare sire. And Sharon Brown's 16-g Thoroughbred family is not known as one of the greatest sire lines -- though it did produce Miswaki and Manila. I think there's just a discomfort level with some of those lesser-known ancestors that keeps some breeders from considering sending a mare to him.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

WhatEver — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:02:49 GMT

Question #1: didn't Holy Bull once stand for $100,000+?

Question #2: was Point Given once in the stable of Darley Thoroughbreds?

Tks for answering...

Scot's reply: Let's see... I believe Holy Bull (SRO) stood at $25,000 from 1995 to 2002, dropped to $15,000 starting in 2003, and will drop to $10,000 for 2009. Point Given (SRO) ran for The Thoroughbred Corporation / Bob Baffert, and has stood at Three Chimneys since retiring to stud in 2002.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Dreamer's Mom — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:52:28 GMT

Thanks, Scot. I love Crafty for a lot of reasons, and his durability is right near the top of the list. I just can't figure out why people aren't beating down the door to breed to him. Can't wait 'til his babies hit the track. They might be hard to rate like the old man, BUT I can almost guarantee they will be easy to be around and will pay their way.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Dreamer's Mom — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:06:21 GMT

If I had $300,000 I would breed to A.P. Indy in a heartbeat for one reason and one reason only-to say I had an A.P. Indy.

Stupid? You bet, especially when you consider where I race there is little to no chance I would ever make back the stud fee.

My point is this, there are several horses out there that are the equivalent of Paris Hilton. You have them because you have the money to have them. Where I live and breathe and shovel manure, I breed to the stallion that has shown the most durability over the long haul. Nothing fancy or glamorous, but completely useful and they pay the bills.

Having said all that, if I could buy the fancy pedigree, I might. I want something solid for my money though. Look at Crafty Shaw-raced through his 6 yr old year and made over a million. He doesn't get squat for mares. Solid pedigree, solid horse, no mares. Someone please explain that to me. I will admit to being quite biased to the dam side of him, but come on-the only reason he didn't run in the Derby was because of an ankle injury, which he came back from, to go on and run until he was 6! Why isn't that being rewarded? There's your bargain, Ladies and Gents!

Scot's reply: Good comment. Your praise of Crafty Shaw (SRO) sounds a whole lot like the reasons I like Request for Parole (SRO) -- a long, hard-knocking career with quality wins all along and a utilitarian pedigree that makes it likely their foals will pay their own way.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

munna22 — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:49:18 GMT

I would also add Touch Gold to the list. He's a steal at $15,000.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

CAM — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:06:12 GMT

I have to agree with just about everything that has already been said. I also want to add that I hope that the trend in dropping stud fees will reduce the number of promising colts who are rushed off the track. (Probably a pipe dream, but one worth having.) Take the case of the two year old colt Run Away And Hide who has been retired to stand next season. Why the rush to breed a two year old animal? There are too many stallions out there and the market is saturated. The correction might be painful for some but it had to happen sooner or later. It's unfortunate that it takes a floundering economy to make people more judicious when it comes Thoroughbred breeding.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

MikeM — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:49:30 GMT

Holy Bull at $10000 seems like a good value. In regards to Mr. Greely, it seems as if he gets fast 2 year old sale candidates which as we know do very well at the sales.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Marc W — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:32:27 GMT

I have always believed fee were too high except for a few like A P Indy where you are going to have a exceptional mare to think about sending to him and thus more than likely a very expensive foal to sell.

I agree to some of the sires mentioned like Thunder Gulch who for whatever reason has never been in vogue, I have always liked Langfuhr who improves mares and throws the occasional special one. Usual Heat still remains a marvel that he improves mares on every surface but never sees quality mares and goes for $12,500?

I have a question-maybe someone in the business can explain it to me--Why have "Mr Greely's have sold so well, got great mares, and his stud fee remains high? I could understand $20-25K but from $75-125K he has been getting the last 10 years????

If his get were terrors on the track?--- Sure, he throws the odd good one, but so did Northern Afleet and he improves his mares regularly and goes for $5000-12.5 in that same period.

Anyone have an answer? More than any stud in recent years have I not understood the love of Mr Greely by breeders and buyers-and I am not saying he is bad, just curious why?

I would love to see what might of come from the studs mentioned above if they had seen the same quality of mares?

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

SMC — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:50:55 GMT

Anyone have any thoughts on Don't Get Mad??

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

UMATILLA JOE — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:09:45 GMT

If anything, this economy has put a lot of stress on the middle market, which has driven myself and my partners to breed to race, and look for value in proven studs, rather than the inflated price which goes with unproven first year studs. Who knows what the market will be like the next few years, but now we'll try to get a good race horse for a value price.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

SMC — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:02:17 GMT

i agree w/ Daiziel re: Johar -- have a weanling by him now and have been watching his runners closely - he had another winner today and think they'll get better w/ age -- anyone else have one they think is a good value??

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

NEVERKICKYOURDOG — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:57:13 GMT

-SAGGY--JOPPY WON THE 1961 DERBY

LIKE CALIFORNIA REAL ESTATE, STUD FEES CANNOT BE PROPERLY VALUED.

THE DRF SHOULD BE $30 PER COPY...THE SHEETS ARE OVERPRICED.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

anita — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:06:05 GMT

How about the ridulous price of $16, million for a two year old. I am truely sorry that THE GREEN MONKEY never accomplished anything on the race track. I hope for his owners that he does better in the breeding shed. And he wasn't my top pick when looking at that catalog. No way would I ever spend that much money on an untested two year old ---even if I had billions to spend. Weird.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Mike — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:25:42 GMT

Based on the 2007 leading sires list, the aggregate stud fees for the starters alone were twice the aggregate year's earnings. When you take into account all of the costs associated with breeding and running, this fact leads me to conclude that stud fees were at least 4 times what they should have been to permit long run viability of the sport.

Taken another way, if the median earnings of the foals produced by these leading sires range between $20 and $40 thousand, what would be an appropriate stud fee?

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Christian — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:44:34 GMT

For many years now, stud fees for fasionable pedigrees have been way to high for how the stallion performed on the race track. Most are still too high. This was driven to a great extent by an equally over priced sales market for these stallions offspring. The market is truely upside down with sales, rather than racing, driving it. Owners spending the big bucks at these auctions need to find a quick return and are driven to push their horses early and hard in order to get to the easier 2 yr old races. Until this year the potential to make a profit was in the sales ring. Owner profits have not been found on the race track in a good number of years. This year the industry is correcting itself, although for the wrong reasons. The industry needs to get back to standing stallions with successful and long careers at prices that can return a profit on the track. When farms such as Country Life Farm in Maryland stop advertising their success developing stallions with limited racing careers and earnings and auction houses begin promoting soundness and racing success over the next, here today gone tomorrow, well bred stallion the market will be forced to be more fairly priced. A good start would include the stopping of 2 yr old breezes at the sales. Everyone knows a 2 yr old has to go in the low 10's or 21, or better, in order to get a good price. Not a trainer I know would push their older horses to go that quickly. I stopped buying at the 2 yr old sales years ago. The industry needs to focus on developing racing with fairly priced stallions that produce racehorses that are sound and durable.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

ROBERT — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:27:11 GMT

I am sending a mare to Quiet American in 2009. I thought he was a steal at $20,000 and think he is even more a steal at $15,900. He is a proven stallion that is becoming a breed shaping stallion thru his daughters. Another steal is Thunder Gulch. If you are wondering who to breed to, look for proven stallions who have had their fee lowered but not by more than 1/4. Stud fees are still high for the elite of the breed.......A.P.Indy, Kingmambo, etc... but that does not mean you can't/won't find value. Don't be in a hurry either. Take your time and do your homework. The stallion owners WANT to breed their stallions. Stay after them and see what happens.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

fb0252 — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:26:46 GMT

let's tell it like it is- that stud fees are and have been ridiculously above value. they are set to catch a few gullible schills generally new to the business. the rest are deals of various sorts. did anybody but a complete fool pay $300,000 last year for a breeding to distorted humor, etc. etc.?

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Springhill — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:59:01 GMT

I think there are several decent stallions that are very low -priced. You just have to look carefully.

But i will agree that some stallions should be brought down on price. Breeders' experts are saying that if you want a good bargain on a great mare, now is the time....For people with a low budget. But again, i agree with you that Nice mares don't have a chance to get to a decent stallion.

One stallion i think that should be grabbed before his fee goes up is Invasor. Most likely his fee will be cut in half this year, but with his race record, soundness, and versatility he showed will pass on. I thought he would go for about 100,000. 35,000? i about dropped out of my chair when i read that last year...HOY, Classic winner, TC winner (uraguay), Dubai world cup winner, And then he dominated 4 G1's in the US.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

DONNA — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:12:13 GMT

Like everthing nowdays stud fees were and still are too high. As they say what goes up must come down.

re: Thoroughbred Stud Fees -- Still Too High?

Dalziel — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:04:40 GMT

Far to many poor quality mares are sent to bad stallions. If the current economy stops that, all well and good.

Dropping a middle ranking stallion by $10 or 15K is not going to bother the middle to top end market but it will freeze out to many no-hopers.

Anyone looking for good value for 2009, head on up to Mill Ridge and get a booking to Johar. I'm very impressed with what he's achieved this year. He's got a proper pedigree, stands at a good farm managed by real horse lovers.