German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Jayne — Tue, 02 Nov 2010 01:59:49 GMT

I totally agree that the breeding rush for the latest fashionable stallion is detrimental to the thoroughbred in the long run. I am a big fan of the Bahram line and am promoting my stallion who is a grandson of the great FIGONERO, NWR at 9 f,(Idle Hour/Persian Gulf/Bahram. He is an amazing combination of speed and stamina and sweet disposition but competitive drive on the track. I hope others like yourselves, will consider breeding for conformation and talent and soundness rather than fashion and sales.

Who's the Famous Thoroughbred? (November 2009 edition)

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:57:36 GMT

Armed with a photo and a few clues, can you identify famous Thoroughbreds from the past? Here are six oldies that will challenge your memory -- and your research skills.

It's International Night at Fasig-Tipton Saratoga

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:06:45 GMT

Bernardini's big numbers might steal the headlines, but rare appearances by sires from Germany and Australia are worth a second look.

U.S. Stallion With German Pedigree Influences and Sharp First Crops -- $3,000 Live Foal

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:55:25 GMT

This stallion's early AEI ratings put him in with some lofty company. Combine his rare sire line with unusual German bloodline influences on the dam side and this is a stallion whose pedigree is worth a closer review.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

LEAVETHATREESQUIRLEALONE — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:13:51 GMT

IM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS, BUT I THINK

ARISTOPHANTIES, THE SIRE OF ROUND TABLE WAS BRED IN GERMANY

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Diana — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:27:31 GMT

Two very similar sires that stand on two oposite ends of the continent are very closly related to the influential German horses that we are debating.

Lanciano stands in Alberta for $1000 and Raffies Majesty in New York for $3000.

Raffie has been very impressive so far and Lancano's first foals are yearlings in 2009. Hopefully they will influence the NA market one mare at a time! It's to bad the NA market can get there mares covered for next to nothing when in Europe the same close cousins of Hurricane run and Shirocco can ask a premium.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

parlo — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:30:05 GMT

@ Frank,

that's right, I was that day at Longchamp. But the fans over here want "more German" than a BMS in a horse raised in Bavaria and racing for an Irish owner. :wink:

So let's hope Baron Ullmann can accomplish his live-time ambition in the years to come. After the set-backs with Shirocco, Manduro and perhaps Getaway this year, he deserves to own an Arc-winner. And actually he is the only German owner-breeder who is capable to win a race like this.

Or perhaps Sheikh Mohammed will buy a German horse to win the Arc even before a German owner will do so with his homebred.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Frank — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:56:17 GMT

@ parlo

Hurricane Run was bred in Germany by Gestüt Ammerland and won the King George and the Arch.

His Sire was Montjeu (Ire) and the Mare was Hold On (Ger) out of Surumu (Ger). .

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

bernie — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 21:49:49 GMT

En Fuego (El Prado), out of Meridiana (GER), finished a close 3rd today @ Aq . Open allowance 1 mile turf test .

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

parlo — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 19:10:49 GMT

Quit interesting to read all this from my homeland view at Germany. But German horses are made late-maturing, staying 12f and preferring soft turf-surface. As long as US racing can’t offer this, German horses will most probably fail in the US – apart from a possible miracle out of an outcross-breeding. By the way: there has never been a US-stallion imported into Germany that made any notable mark in “our breed” over here.

It’s not really a surprise that Monsun did well with mares who have “much” Northern Dancer-blood. Monsun is out of the two leading German lines and can’t be improved with the homeland gene pool – so Northern Dancer offers a welcome and common sense outcross. Let’s hope, Manduro, Shirocco and Schiaparelli will do well in GB/IRE-tb-breeding – what a wonderful success this would be. And don’t forget: German horse have still to win Europe’s prestige-races as the Arc, the King George & Queen Elizabeth Stakes, or the Epsom Derby – these are the real targets of leading German owners and breeders.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Robert — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:01:44 GMT

After reading everyones comments, how about this. The Jockey club or a group of farms get together and lease some of these German stallions for use in America. have we all fogotten Ribot. he was only supposed to be a lease and look how he has worked out. We don't need to own these stallions, just use them for 2 or 3 seasons. If they have not proven themselves by then, start again. Something must be done about the shortening of the American Thoroughbred...distance ability! Big Brown was bred to go 1 1/2 miles, but his feet were not. As for names you can't recognize in the pedigree......who cares. When they can't run, they can't read their pedigree. Hybred Vigor is what is needed in a bad way with our gene pool here in the USA, and we better not wait to long to improve it. Otherwise, nothing will be able to go even 1 1/8 miles, much less 1 1/4. I really don't want to see the Derby, Preakness and Belmont become two 1 1/8 mile races and a 1 1/4 mile race.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Saxtonhill — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 09:20:07 GMT

As a student of history, it's nice to know the *Bahram sire line is still alive and going well with Kamsin, Manduro and Monsun, and that the *Blenheim II sire line has returned to the United States with Seattle Fitz (whom I have a high regard for, and saw quite a bit of when he was racing).

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Bernie — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:49:55 GMT

Successful NY sire Raffies Majesty (Cormorant) has Surumu as his broodmare sire . A second line dam side line shows Dschingis Khan. Raffies Majesty has sired the last 3 winners of the NY Empire Classic .

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Catherine — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:08:27 GMT

Anything that will get us away from Mr. P and Northern Dancer is good in my books.

Given the appealing outcrosses provided by Monsun and his sons, what about sons of Indian Ridge and In Reality sireline, which trace back to the exceedingly rare Byerly Turk and Godolphin Arabian sirelines, respectively? Shouldn't breeders look to them as well?

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

De Mac — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:22:40 GMT

I agree with Horsetrader. The only reason Manduro is supported is because everyone hopes Mr Fergusson is going to be there bidding for weanling or yearling. Would only have a chance if he stood at Darley I'd say.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

NEVERKICKYOURDOG — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:36:17 GMT

MARES...MARES...MARES

GERMAN-BRED MARES

HORSETRADER...BRING OVER A DOZEN MARES

THEY'LL BE PRODUCERS...AND, I'M CONFIDANT, AT ALL DISTANCES. THEY MAY HAVE TO RENAME THE "MOTHER GOOSE" THE MOTHER GOOSESTEP.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

MRO — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:26:01 GMT

Maybe the USA will be interested if the Ouija Board-Monsun foal runs well here. She is still popular in the USA.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Elaine — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:25:12 GMT

I agree w/ Horsetrader. And let's be realistic. If Kamsin came to the US & turned out to be a fantastic sire, with 10% SWs to foals, where would the 90% of the other foals run? How many 10 furlong maiden races on the turf are there? When was the last time you saw a 9 furlong on the turf non-winner of 2 allowance? That is what happened with Northern Spur. To have a horse like Kamsin here, there have to be races at all levels for the type of foals he is likely to sire. At this time, there are nothing but G1 races for offspring of Kamsin. And sorry, you can't built a stallion career on less than 10% of your offspring.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Horsetrader — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:35:32 GMT

I think it would be very unlikely that Kamsin would receive enough support from American breeders to justify the exercise. A German G1 stakes winner at 1 1/2 miles with a pedigree that is for the most part unrecognizable to the average American breeder just won't work. This was pretty much covered in back in a July blog on the same horse. I tried to bring Acatenango to Kentucky after he was retired. The only farm that took a close look at him was Lanes End.

No disrespect, but it is easy for the arm chair breeders to slag breeders who actually put up their money, time and a lot work to bring what we hope will be successful on the race track so as to improve our mares and the value of future yearlings and generate enough attention in the sales ring to pay down on the debt accumulated in the 24 months it takes to bring a yearling to market. So there is just too much risk to return. Something like 70% of all yearlings that have gone through the ring over the last 5 plus years have either lost money or have barely broke even. I have a feeling that a lot of the "hobby breeders" who have contributed to this mess will be sorted out in the next couple years.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

timurlenk — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:28:08 GMT

German lines have made their mark in South America as notorious providers of stamina to the gene pool in this part of the world. As sample we could name Orsenigo whose influence has been tremendous in Brazil and Peru.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

c bea — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:05:13 GMT

Germany is well ahead of the States in a number of areas regarding racing. Stallions that ran on medication are unable to stand at stud in Germany is but one example. Smart (or should I say Schmardt)! The core of the breed is much more sound in Germany.

If only the leaders of our Industry were a bit more enlightened.

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

sgillies — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:04:18 GMT

I can also point out that Kamsin/Manduro/Monsun represent the Bahram line of Blandford/Swynford -- a sire line that was recently re-introduced to U.S. breeders through Seattle Fitz (ARG) (SRO), who represents the Blenheim II line. (We've discussed Seattle Fitz in previous blog posts.)

re: German Thoroughbred Pedigrees -- A Worldwide Bloodlines Influence?

Dodo — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 08:12:20 GMT

Good to see that someone is interested in improving the American Thoroughbred, as opposed to repeating the cycle of breeding unsound horses back to unsound horses.