Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Citation Lover — Wed, 21 Jul 2010 02:43:24 GMT

I am a newbie to pedigree study. I find it fascinating, but I don't want to annoy you with stupid questions. Just this one: How do you determine the founder of a "line"?

What level of potency makes a horse stand out so that he is called the father of a line?

Thanks for your help.

<ul><li><i><b>Scot's reply</b>: References to specific sires as the patriarch of a "line" are due partly to tradition and partly to context. We refer to the three founding sire lines--Godolphin Barb, Darley Arabian, and Byerly Turk--because they're as far back as our records go to determine tail-male lineage. Traditionally, we also refer to those same lines as Matchem, Eclipse, and Herod because those stallions were the most dominant male heirs, and they are the only remaining sire-line links to the founding sires. Sometimes lines refer to the most prominent recent stallion of a given line. Himyar (1875) has two active branches currently, through Domino (1891) and Plaudit (1895). I might discuss the "Holy Bull line" because he's the most recent stallion representing the Plaudit line of Himyar to have multiple sire sons. Similarly, we would probably call his Domino branch the "Broad Brush line" now since that's the only line that has widespread represenation. I'd urge you to look at the "grey pages" in the Stallion Register. The bolded and large-font names are traditionally considered patriarchs of their sire lines.</i></li></ul>

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Helen — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:54:09 GMT

I have to say that these articles are the BEST. I enjoy reading articles on pedigrees and to have the pedigrees easily available to look at is great. I'm not sure if this has been covered yet, but can an article be done comparing modern pedigrees with those of the nearly "lost" "Iron Horse" of decaded agao. The ones that ran more often and without the drugs of today. Those were the true Thoroughbreds. Our modern drugs are creating a "freak" of sorts that cannot improve upon itself in the breeding shed as breeders always hope will happen. What is wrong with the diet of old - water, hay and oats?

Keep on writing these VERY informative articles.

On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:52:21 GMT

A bit of research on Thoroughbred sire-line descent becomes a trip down memory lane as I consult the 1982 Stallion Register.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

vineyridge — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:20:42 GMT

I forgot to say that Two Davids is looking to become a useful broodmare sire.

There was an Ambiorix son (ancient) standing in Oklahoma a couple of years ago.

We need more imported outcross sires like Siphon in North America.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

vineyridge — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:16:55 GMT

I have a wild hare theory that the strongest horses, both in performance and in the breeding shed will show male lines to all three of the foundation sires in the first five generations for males and the sire of females in the fifth.

Those horses are becoming harder and harder to find as Man O'War and Discovery are found farther and farther back.

Even St. Simon is becoming rare, and who would ever have thought that could have happened. Nasrullah is getting harder to find on top. Who could have predicted that Balladier would have disappeared, or Black Toney? Or Blue Larkspur?

Racing times have not improved enough to explain what's happened. Fad breeding does.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Krista — Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:18:14 GMT

NJ Jenny, Yes I stand Legal Jousting in Ontario.

I can honestly say I was somewhat ignorant of even Indian Ridge before I acquired a son. Yet he's sired two Breeders' Cup winners (Domedriver, Ridgewood Pearl), and is the broodmare sire of another (Wando). Many people don't realize that he stood for a significant stud fee at the Irish National Stud in his last few years at stud. Indian Ridge also had some incredible success with two year olds, having at least one stakes winning two year old in I believe all but one of his crops to race.

I think part of the problem with non-Eclipse sirelines is that people go with what they know, and stallions from these lines have obviously been dominant in recent years.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Tizna — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 21:27:49 GMT

My favorite line is Domino, which seems to be going the same way as the Teddy line. Though Include does have a full brother, Encaustic, who is still racing. Maybe he will get a chance at stud.

Rare Thoroughbred Sire Lines -- Ormonde and Teddy and Damascus

The Five-Cross Files — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:43:06 GMT

The Eclipse-line stallion Bend Or branched off with sons Ormonde and Bona Vista in the 1880's. While at one point multiple lines existed through the great Teddy, the line appears to be dwindling. The 2009 Stallion Register lists just seven Teddy-line

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

newsline2 — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:45:01 GMT

Perhaps consider going through the dam's side to recover the old lines?

From an interesting website,

"...Byerley Turk mares became jewels of great price. Two of his daughters have been determined to be taproot mares for the breed. First was the daughter of the Taffolet Barb mare (three generations descended from Tregonwell's Natural Barb Mare, family #1).

Another Byerley Turk daughter known as "Dam of the Two True Blues" was designated founder of family #3. She was bred by Mr. Bowes of Streatleam, Co. Durham, a stud only ten miles from Middridge Grange, and so was foaled in the early part of the Byerley Turk's career. This mare's dam was unknown, and it has been speculated that these two daughters of the Byerley Turk are one and the same, but this can't be proven.

Other mares sired by the Byerley Turk include the only daughter of the mare by Bustler, founder of family #8, and the only daughter of another mare by Bustler, founder of family #35. He also sired the dams of Bulle Rock (allegedly the first "bred" stallion imported into Virginia), Smales' Childers, Fortune (also imported into the U.S.), the Farmer Mare, and The Wharton Mare.

--Anne Peters"

www.tbheritage.com/.../ByerleyTurk.html

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

newsline2 — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:30:02 GMT

Perhaps the Association should consider bringing in fresh Akhal-Teke blood to regain that endurance of the Byerley Turk lines?

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

NJ Jenny — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:30:42 GMT

Krista, who's the son of Indian Ridge -- are you the one with Legal Jousting up in Canada?

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Krista — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:03:52 GMT

I have a Windfields stallion book from 1981, and I found it quite interesting that at the time they were trying to find representatives of each of the three branches to stand at stud. Even then they were having difficulty finding a Herod/Matchem stallion.

I stand a son of Indian Ridge, so I am quite partial to the Herod line :)

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Marc W — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:43:11 GMT

Tiz Baby--I don't think Smart Strike ran on the turf as far as I can remember. Dance Smartly won on the turf (and everything) as well as his dam. Every horse that had anything to do with the grand dam No Class was special. One of the greatest blue hens of the modern era.

He does throw nice turf horses but he sends good dirt as well.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

m palmer — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 04:27:00 GMT

Mr. Prospector, his sons, grandsons and great grandsons have sired the winners 30 of 75 Triple Crown races contested between 1983 and 2008. This has been the longest a line has dominate Triple Crown races.

The only line that will dethrone the Mr. Prospector line is the Seattle Slew line that is poised for resurgence through the following grandsons and great grandsons: Mineshaft, Bernardini, Pulpit, Golden Missile, Aptitude, Steven Got Even, Friends Lake, Suave, Tapit, Sky Mesa, Purge, Stroll, Oratory and Corinthian

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

BlueHen — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:09:25 GMT

Affirmed was a dirt runner, but sired some good turf horses. You just never know! It's a fairly unpredictable thing and that's part of why it's all so interesting. You never REALLY know what you're going to get.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

robert — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:33:55 GMT

I agree with skipaway2000. Curlin has enough ability that he could and probably will be a decent synthetic track sire. Point Given has the hidden talents a few generations back in his pedigree, As for sire lines, I really want some of the stout German and French lines over here. Our sire lines simply don't seem to be capable of siring horses that can win the Triple Crown without killing them physically and knocking them out of action for months because it is too stressful on them. The Thoroughbred was developed for speed over a distance. We American breeders seem to have forgotten that. Horses like Powerscourt, Northern Spur and Montjeu have shown distance is no problem, but with the exception of Montjeu, and his get only sell in Europe, none of them wil succeed in America. Too Bad. Our breed is slowly becoming fragile and incapable of going a distance. To me a distance horse is NOT a horse who can barely win at 1 1/8 miles. Curlin is a great race horse, but he was suspect at anything past 1 1/4 miles. I will keep an eye on him and his stallion career. Hopefully his owner faith that he will transmit stamina will come to pass.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Tiznowbaby — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:05:58 GMT

For that matter, Curlin's sire was a turf horse.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

skipaway2000 — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:41:15 GMT

I wouldn't completely count Curlin out as a synthetic sire. For example, Point Given is a leading poly sire & he never ran on the stuff at all.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Whatever — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:26:15 GMT

The future of horse racing should be very interesting. They'll be dirt sires, turf sires and synthetic sires, or is that the same thing as a good turf sire. If all the major american tracks switch to synthetic surfaces (which is good if its truly safer for the horses) then say good bye to many old bloodlines, especially if they can not produce synthetic runners. For example, Curlin was a dirt performer, what happens when he can not produce successful synthetic runners? I am almost positive that even if mares bred to him have been successfull on synthetic surfaces that does not mean his offspring will be able to run over it. It should be very interesting to see what happens in the next 5 to 10 years.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

DynaformerLives — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:24:24 GMT

Dont' go forgetting Roberto. I hope that Turn-To continues with sons of Dynaformer but I also like Kris S and Rock Hard Ten and Arch and Action This Day.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Lance S — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:18:53 GMT

Good point, Chris. I'm sure there was a time in the early 20th century that people were afraid the Herod line was going to completely dominate North American breeding, and yet now it's virtually extinct. Also, people have to be careful about getting too excited about these ancient lines. In reality, looking beyond grandparents really doesn't have much impact. That's as far as dairy cattle breeders go - they are much more sophisticated about breeding than Thoroughbred breeders.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Chris — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:04:02 GMT

To Catherine,

It's quite simple, the offspring of the mentioned sires are winning the major races and generally outperforming other sire lines. Would I love to see an under the radar outcross sire hit the big times, of course. I had high hopes for Mongoose, but saying his offsprings' performances have been lackluster is being generous. As far outcrosses go, I think the Holy Bull line is a sleeper and I'm really intrigued by Macho Uno. I also like Include and Chapel Royal. Keep in mind the Mr.P/Northern Dancer lines won't always dominate. I'm rather new to the breeding aspect so I love hearing about these rarer sire lines.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

NEVERKICKYOURDOG — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:43:01 GMT

PHALARIS' GRANDSON--AMERIGO--HAS, FOR THE MOST PART, DISAPPEARED (SILVER HAWK'S DAM) AND IT IS UNFORTUNATE.

IF ONLY FORT MARCY DIDN'T HAVE TO BE GELDED...AND, IN THE 1967 D.C. INTERNATIONAL, FORT MARCY RAN WITH TURF STICKERS(LEGAL AT THE TIME) AND FWY DIDN'T WANT TO FOOL WITH DAMASCUS' SHOES FOR HIS ONLY TURF RACE.

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Catherine — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 04:43:58 GMT

Matchem by a landslide, with the Byerley Turk a close second. Both of these lines, as far as I've been able to tell, have been rather sound. I'd rather send a mare to a sireline descendent of these lines than to any stallion representing the Darley Arabian.

I was looking through the grey pages in the 2009 edition of The Stallion Register the other day. The fact that there are so many descendents of Mr. P and Northern Dancer at stud disgusts me. Why on earth don't breeders grow some new brain cells and get away from all that and go for the rarer lines for outcrosses which would most likely save the breed from collapsing on itself?

re: Modern Thoroughbred Sire Lines

Wondering — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 02:53:37 GMT

What pedigrees should work well with Seattle Fitz?

Scot's reply: I threw out a few ideas about breeding to Seattle Fitz in a previous post. I like Relaunch-line sires with him (daughters of Waquoit, Honour and Glory, Tiznow, for example). I'd also like to see Sadler's Wells mares crossed with him.