We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

crace — Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:14:52 GMT

Dreamer and Gunfighter, I am only speaking of the low level claimer from the perspective of an owner. I realize they make up the majority of races at most tracks and can be as entertaining and bet-able as any other race. But as an owner, you just pray to have some good allowance runners that can pay their own bills AND the bills of your low claimers that didn't make it as top flight runners. If you are an owner paying all the bills figure $2500 per month minimum. Third place in a $7000 purse claimer is $700 less jockey, trainer commission, vanning, pony, pre-race vet etc... The math doesn't work. You have to win every month to eke out any profit, even if you got the horse for free! And if you do win at that level the horse will be claimed away from you anyway. if you own a racing stable of any size you pray for the good ones that can pay for your bad ones and hope to break even at the end of hopefully having alot of fun. The truest thing in racing is that it costs just as much to train a bad horse as it does a good horse. And as far as all the high priced horses sold at auction, any horse you see selling for over $100,000 and there are alot of them - they on average have to win a stakes race to ever be profitable on the race track. How many of them do that? Not enough. And not enough have real value as breeding stock if they are racetrack failures to justify six figure price tags. It's tough enough to fight against the training bills in this game. If you are also fighting to recoup the principle cost of a big purchase price then that makes it doubly tough. You hear about the success stories but all the losing stories are swept under the rug. I love the game and love having a little stable but it is an expensive hobby you might get lucky with. Not a sound business.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

marc w — Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:12:56 GMT

Gunfighter-I guess you didn't see one of my previous posts-Where racing is healthy and strong like England, France and Australia-- strange as a N. American would find it --they have "few" to no claiming races.

"Common Sense" is we let the weak die out in the game. If you are going to have to pay $30K a year to keep a horse-let it be a good one that runs for purses that warrant the cost of keeping it.

Trust me, I have paid my dues in the racing game, I yearn for the past, but COMMON SENSE is that it is a dying sport only being saved ONLY in most places by slots. If it (racing) can't stand on its own, it shouldn't be here!

Trust me, NYC, Toronto, Chicago, LA, are not going to die out, FL will always have people wanting to go in winter---but what if? We didn't have Calder going year round? Other tracks couldn't make a go without slots before they let their track die. Why force it on a majority for a few? Just because I like Pepperpot soup and salted licorice it doesn't mean the store should carry them if I am going to be the only one buying it. Let me buy it on the net, same for a gambler in a dead racing zone.

I once, being a proud Canadian at the time watched the Expos put great teams for a while on the field and nobody came 2-3000 people, then they complained when their team moved to Washington. I have no sympathy, nor any racetrack leaving an area that doesn't get support.

I hear, even my beloved Fort Erie which was before slots one of the best kept and most beautiful tracks in North America is closing. No sympathy they destroyed the beauty and the grandstand to make room for slots. Gone is the children's zoo, and playground for interesting new young fans, the wonderful up close view of the horses coming down the stretch where you could here the jocks yelling give me room or chirping their mounts.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

Gunfighter — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:43:44 GMT

Crace.

Racing needs the low level horses, any activity needs a broad base to stand on, if you do away with the low level horses you end up with a pyramid trying to balance on it's smallest side, and that will not work. Called common sense.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

marc W. — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:32:10 GMT

Thanks Mom-I am glad someone understands how the game is now.

Anyway- I love horse racing, 55 yrs old and now first went when 4--My dad worked as a part time mutuel clerk-hot walked when about 9-so if you add the above 2 posts I made you see my experience in the game plus not mentioned I was once E.P.Taylor's messenger one summer in the Turf Club at Woodbine (He Bred a little horse named Northern Dancer-I was also at Windfields in Oshawa the day no one wanted him for his set price of 25K with my dad and his rich horse owning mistress)

OK lets set the record straight to those not in the business or no-nothing

A-no whip girl and others-HORSES were ""not"" either by by evolution or God meant to have 110 LB human on their back running at full speed. Also they were not conceived/planned to run around oval shapes one way only all the time.

EVEN horses know enough to look for cover on rainy days or huddle together on cold days, and not expend energy on hot ones. Should we close on those days? Next post or topic should be that one if the rhetorical and redundant idea of this one is a topic. Yes everyone wishes for better treatment of horses-duh! But, lets be real at the same time.

The animals are bred to race-they are not work horses, pets, or compared to other breeds of horse smarter or friendlier no matter what some writers stories that are pasted on about thoroughbreds. They are fragile animals compared to other horse breeds and they were 100 or 200 "0r" 25 years ago """IF""" you are comparing to other horse breeds. If they didn't race (or jump or in some other form of competition) they would not exist. Hardier, smarter horses would be used and let these fast but otherwise not overly useful breed except for competition die out.

As to whip-I am definitely on limits but it is useful and necessary in the game. Maybe you should try riding in a horse race when your horse tries to bolt over the outside fence without a whip or lugs-in maybe wiping out 4 others and kills 2 jocks.

Sorry, I love horses. but I rather see 200 horses die than one jockey.

I'm human and keep that perspective in place. In the end racehorses are better treated and cared for than any animals on earth save cats and dogs. Actually they do much better than some 3rd world humans. When did you blog about the killings in Africa or give a displaced person a bed in your home? How many put their parents in nursing homes? GROW UP PEOPLE! Who get soooooooo serious about horses.

Let the sport be fair-no drugs et.-but it is not all-important and some horses like humans don't get a fair shake-it's life.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

Dreamer's Mom — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 00:15:45 GMT

marc W-I hear you loud and clear. I understand where you are coming from and if I were only an owner, I would probably think twice about being in racing. My point to crace was only that we could not do it without our low-level claimers due to the way racing is in my state. Our good horses sit, but you see the same horses every weekend in $2500 claiming races. Not ours-we tend to believe they like some time off! Getting rid of our claimers would put us out of business. We breed sound horses. We don't live on ice, but we cannot get our good horses out of the barn. Not really a racing issue-mostly a Racing Secretary issue.

I hear everyone talking about closing tracks to make racing better, but how do you decide which to close? We are not the minority. There are tons of folks like me at every track-folks trying to have good stock, trying to make a life because we love what we do. It's not our fault the purses suck. It's not our fault some people live by the needle, thus making their stock more fragile. It's not our fault the State cashes the checks generated by racing, yet they don't scratch our backs when we need a little help. Some day I hope to move on to greener pastures, but for now I have a kid in school and that is why I stay. That is why lots of people stay. We can't all win the Derby and some of us don't even dream of it. We just want good horses and the chance to race them.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

AHH — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:31:40 GMT

I'm not a horseman, just a fan who follows pretty closely. I appreciate the commentary from those who have been in the game in whatever capacity, they all provided incites, for me, as to the difficulties faced by all manner of horseman. Personally I thought the article a little vague in it's solutions and generic in it's opinions, so the added content was really informative. My only comment is to take a look at ALL sports: is there any ONE that doesn't have issues with cheating, perfomance enhancing, elitism, and everything else that can and has been said about racing (excluding mortality rates)? European jockeys throw races every year, name the last time a major pro sports league didn't have a drug violation, the owners and athletes are much better off than average financially, and most even have on field/court injuries. How much does money matter in other sports? What depths are athletes everywhere willing to sink to to win? I'm not saying that makes it all O.K., I'm just trying to point out that this goes way beyond one sport. The money involved in most sports today and the accolades and rewards that go to the winners foster the "win at all costs" mentality. As long as there are human beings involved (motto: "It ain't cheatin' unless you get caught") you will always have those with lower opinions of animals (Mike Vick) and those who are willing to cheat to win. I'd like to see things change for the better in horse racing; safer and well tested surfaces, better care both during and post career, better drug testing and stiffer penalties for those who do cheat, etc. However, with no one at the helm of a rudderless ship awash in a sea of greed I find it rather unlikely.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

Whatever — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:48:06 GMT

fb0252, I agree, they should do whats best for the horses. They can start by banning whips and lowering the jockey's stirupps so both horse and rider can be safer. Whips do nothing but force an exhausted, tired animal too continue on until they either run faster or kill themself; its one or the other, there is no in between. If this industry REALLY CARES about the horses then get rid of those whips. I will preach this until the day I die and will never stop until these beautiful magnificent animals aren't beaten mercilessly with whip marks all over their flanks on national television. I wonder how many times Wanderin Boy was whacked with the whip before his leg gave out because he obviously was exhausted coming around that far turn and had nothing left to give BUT HIS LIFE.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

ROBERT — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:46:17 GMT

BY THE SOUND OF THE COMMENTS POSTED BEFORE MINE, THERE IS ONE THING FOR SURE.......RACING FANS ARE ANGRY ABOUT THE STATE OF THEIR SPORT, AND NOTHING SEEMS TO BE GETTING DONE TO FIX PROBLEMS THAT EXIST. I HAVE BEEN IN THE "GAME" FOR OVER 25 YEARS. I DON'T DO IT TO MAKE A LIVING, BUT RATHER BECAUSE I THOROUGHLY ENJOY HORSE RACING. WHEN I CHOOSE TO BREED A MARE, I AM VERY HARD ON THE STALLIONS I MIGHT GO TO. I ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT BREED SPRINTERS OR ANYTHING THAT DID NOT AT LEAST SHOW AT 1 1/8 MILES. I WILL NOT BREED TO HORSES THAT HAVE REPUTATIONS FOR UNSOUND HORSES, AND I DON'T INBREED FOR THE FUN OF IT. I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST SAW BIG BROWN'S PEDIGREE AND I WAS SHOCKED. THEN I READ ABOUT HOW THOROUGH THE BREEDER WAS IN PICKING HIS STALLIONS AND WHAT HE WAS LOOKING FOR, AND I CHANGED MY MIND. BREEDERS HAVE TO TAKE BACK THIS SPORT ALONG WITH THE OWNERS. IF THE TRACKS CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT A "BAILOUT" -- SO TO SPEAK -- THEN THEY NEED TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS. THIS GAME IS A BUSINESS, BUT THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE "GETTING THE BUSINESS" ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR SPORT.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

DynaformerLives — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:27:17 GMT

we need to do one of 2 things. Either close down alot of tracks and breed alot less foals, or FIND NEW FANS. Horseracing is an entertainment not an investment, and the only way we can bring more money into the industry is to get more people hooked on horse racing, so they come out and watch the races and bet. The only way to do THAT is to appeal to people who love HORSES and SPORTS, and we have got to start proving that in Thoroughbred horse racing, the horses do come first.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

marc W — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:43:44 GMT

Mom-crace agreed with most I posted-here's the deal-IF and that is a big IF-you are doing your own work-yes you can not only have fun with a cheap horse-but also make money. In the past I had a $3000 claimer that I won 11 races with but I trained (basically walked, ponied, and raced-all I really did was use a lot of ice-I am not an ace trainer + that was 20 yrs ago) under a friends name so cost were small. If I was paying someone-I wouldn't have had him.

We have disagreed in a nice way before. If I can claim a horse for $8K lose him for $15K win $41K in purses and basically break even-that's sad. Yes, I had to lay him up, yes, I got lucky dropping him to $5K with him after paying $8K to boost his confidence, but the vet bills, farm, pre-race lasix AND the horse wouldn't drink so we had to hydrate him all the time one way or the other. If I was doing it myself I would have shown a $20-25K profit.

Here a proposition for you-IF-you can bill me less than 10K or around that including vet and shoeing plus the 10% for purses and stakes for hot walkers and grooms a year---NO MORE for a $5K claimer! Have a reasonable win % at tracks where purses are fairly good we can talk if you want to contact me. No -percentage deals(I am sure we can find a way-I also have friends that might be interested if that reasonable) If not-my point is proven-double the price of the horse just to keep it, and not close to being enough? Certainly not for the average fan.

Now to another point on the first topic.

OLD SAYING AROUND THE RACETRACK AND SOMEWHAT TRUE-GOOD HORSES GET HURT BECAUSE THEY TRY SO HARD, BAD HORSES DON'T BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXTEND THEMSELVES. Those knocking breeding to unsound horses-maybe there is a reason why they hurt, but they instill their will to win.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

Dreamer's Mom — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:39:05 GMT

Crace-I disagree with your comments regarding low-level claimers. Where I race it is the low-level claimers that are the breadwinners of the barn. Those are the only races that go. Our good horses sit in the barn, only managing to run maybe once a month and then in Stakes because we can't get an allowance to go. So, the crap races our Racing Secretary writes, including about 10 extras because he won't stick to the book, are for the low-level claimers. The only ones running in the barn and the only ones bringing home a check. God Bless their tough souls! Couldn't do it without them!

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

crace — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:26:42 GMT

I can tell you as an owner with a small time stable that unless you have an allowance runner there is no way to make money. Racing for $8,000 claiming purses or less does not pay the training bills and associated costs, even if you hit the board. The claiming game is for trainer-owners who have much lower overhead than an outside owner. I think we should take all the low claimers and find them other careers or retirement homes. It's not worth it for the owners and certainly not worth it for the horse to go through the rigors of trying to earn those measly paychecks. Yes the industry needs to be condensed to mostly the quality runners going for big purses. If you are an owner and you have a $5000 claimer, you really can't retire him fast enough. It will save you both a lot of hardship.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

jack — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:39:31 GMT

greed greed greed. Racing should be a break even sport if you are lucky. But now you have idiots like ivarone being quoted in the national media. Guys Ike him haven't ever had to clean muck off their shoes nor work with a horse for that matter. So I appreciate what the doc said. He knows more than you who are attacking him. What ever happened to horsemen?

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

Qatmom — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:31:02 GMT

Every time a horse is hurt on national tv I end up having to defend racing to people who know nothing about the sport and who are convinced that people are making huge amounts of money racing and entertain delusions that jockeys will flog a horse that they know has broke down.

Obviously, we need some education. TV coverage needs fewer funny hat and celebrity pieces and some actual information about the sport.

Does anyone here remember the work George Pratt was doing at MIT in the early 1970s with equine biomechanics and track surfaces? Does anyone know if any of the synthetic surfaces have been engineered to respond for maximum safety for the equine leg? Human runners (indoor) have for some time run on 'tuned tracks' that are not only the safest but also the fastest.

If a horse can only race with medication, then he belongs in someone's backyard and probably never should have been bred in the first place, and I don't necessarily mean 'cheap' horses. Fashion is for the vain, not racehorses.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

Marc W — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:14:25 GMT

I love horses and the game of the past, that said it is a business now, not a game and a expensive one at that. I worked about every job at tracks from hot walker and up-jock's agent, on a ticket window, clocker, and have owned and trained. When I changed careers becoming a steel company executive and financially much better off I exclusively owned horses and took no part in their upkeep other than paying bills.

I make more than the average person but gave up owning race horses last year. I showed a profit, but in reviewing the costs and risks I gave up. In 2006-2007 I had five horses-one I bought a unraced 2 yr old, the rest were claimers a low of $8000 to a high of a $32,000 claim. All the claimers made money and were claimed off me (the 32K I lost for 20K but won 2 races and placed so ended up OK)the baby was 40K when he finally raced at 3 and finally won for 5K and after his second win I sold him for 5K, a relief! I thought he would never win and had tried to sell him for 1K after he was out-distanced in his second race. 2 yrs, well over $150K in purses and I made $4K. I made almost $17k in the last month investing in a steel stocks staring with 10K and day trading. The company's I invested on couldn't break down, and didn't need feed, vets, if not showing an immediate profit, looked good 3-4 yrs in the future, not to mention they pay dividends.

What should be done and being practical are two different things. Costs are enormous. You have thousands of horses hitting the market that should never have been bred because their bloodlines or records, should not have been carried on. When people lose money, costs are cut or people cheat. Again, it is a business now.

As I can not work with horses because where I live now no longer has horse racing. I paid a decent trainer who didn't overcharge me. With shipping, vets, lay ups, it is about 3K a month to keep a horse in training-far more than the normal person can afford. That is almost double what I pay for a mortgage for a very nice house after a good down payment.

Those like me, we either HAVE TO WIN and race or get out. It is no longer for Joe Average person-rich or people taking an edge dominate now. It is only going to get more like that in the future. If the normal fan can't play the base gets smaller and smaller. You can play hoops for nothing with friends and pay to see pros. With racing a program costs $1.50, a form $6.50-they add a premium, then you pay to bet. You are watching a TV not a live show. At the dog track (Birmingham) I go to now, expensive and lousy food (for what you get), complete disregard the the patrons as they change the tracks they carry regularly without notice. They wonder why they are not busy? Sadly racing is a dying game.

OK, back to upkeep of horses. So the patron can't really get in. Those not having "certain" trainers and vets see their horses claimed and moved up. The guy doing the "right things" are losers now except in rare cases. Honestly I think all the talk in the world and best intentions are not going to happen until the game lets the weak die out (tracks, breeders, and horses) and consolidates. Then and only then when it is smaller and manageable, those agencies can put controls, and rules which can be monitored. At least then, even if the rich are the only ones that can play, the reputation and methods use will be for the best interests of the gallant animals that entertain us. The sport will live on in its new form, not as popular as in the past, or overseas where the popularity is still there because of limited exposure, short meets and less scandals.

Question-do you have hundreds of Claiming races in England and France daily?-NO! Almost 25 different racetracks racing every day, not including dogs and harness?-NO!

Let's make it manageable then the horse will come first.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

nick — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:21:17 GMT

Do you have any suggestions of what the Fan/Horseplayer/Gambler or supportive Breeders/Trainers/Owners can do to show that the racing community wants these changes as well?

Scot's reply: I'd like to hear other ideas on this as well. Here are my thoughts:

Fans and horseplayers can contact track officials and sales companies to request that they encourage responsible horsemanship. (Such as writing races that have "no Lasix" as a condition, and requiring full disclosure of corrective surgeries.) And follow up on these requests by BETTING on the special races, or BIDDING on "clean" sales horses.
Owners need to take an active role in horse management. "I didn't know" about steroids, overtraining, etc, should no longer be an excuse.
Patronize tracks that invest in safer racing surfaces.
Learn about horse health. Fans, horse lovers, casual racegoers -- if you believe that "we have to put the horse first," get educated. TheHorse.com has thousands of articles on every topic related to horse health and safety. If you're informed about what's going on in the industry, you'll be able to advocate for better practices. TheHorse.com has multiple daily news articles -- or sign up for one of their free weekly newsletters.

re: We Have A Crisis In Thoroughbred Racing

fb0252 — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:53:31 GMT

more mindless jibberish, imo by someone that has an agenda without a larger view. how much of racing's precarious resources are to be spent on drug testing? and, is there anyone out there who disagrees that we should do what's best for the horse? I fail to see how this guy's opinion does anything, for it misses most of the really large issues--leadership, marketing to bettors, figuring how to make the backstretch owner friendly, reducing the power of trainers.