Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Fasig-Tipton Catalog Updates -- Nice!

The Five-Cross Files — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:16:01 GMT

Fasig-Tipton includes a useful tool to keep its November Selected catalog pages up to date. (Even if you're not impressed by that, take a look at the sample page I've cited -- think Sea the Stars' family and Rachel Alexandra's sire.)

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

myhopesrstillup — Fri, 04 Sep 2009 00:20:54 GMT

it looks like you'r on the right trail. keep up the good work.

i hope you can give me the information i am looking for. i have contacted the DRF and

looks like you'r heading in the right direction. keep it up. i hope

that you can help me.i have sought this infirmation from the DRF and the American Turf Monthly without success. name the horses that have won 50 or more races.

Scot's reply: Well, I can tell you there've been several (up to 89 wins, in fact) and can point you in the right direction. You want to find the latest copy of the Thoroughbred Times Racing Almanac, where you'll find lists of the winningest, losingest, etc., horses of all time.

Inglis Easter Sale Catalogue is My New Favourite

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:53:14 GMT

This is a sales catalog made for Thoroughbred pedigree fans.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

JLDecker — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:41:54 GMT

Brilliant observation, Scot. I've been trying to make my thoughts on this very issue coherent for months. ^-^

FWIW, I gave you a shoutout on Down the Stretch.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

skywatcher — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:16:47 GMT

The first item on my wishlist for a better catalogue would be confo shots!

As a long distance prosepctive buyer, I give my agent a list of horses that I am interested in...but right now only a very low maximum bid.

If I knew what my choices looked like, I would be willing to spend a lot more...but I'm not going to drop tens of thousands of dollars on a possible biomechanically unsound horse

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Bellwether — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 05:16:55 GMT

whack em & race em...Long Live The King!!!...

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

more — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:55:15 GMT

not to mention... keeneland does have serchable index, and recently even added the feature to download only the pages you were interested in into a mini catalog for pdf file. ft does a lovely job making the catalog pretty online but could use some sort of a search engine. basics can still be downloaded and sorted through on excel, eliminate sires, birth dates and consigners at will then browse back through in a seperate window the pages you want to see.

would be interesting to be able to cross reference sales though, see horses that will be selling at mulitple sales from multiple companies and decide which you really want to go pull out

Scot's reply: Glad you brought this up -- I failed to mention it, and Keeneland *should* be given kudos for making this new service available. For those of you who aren't familiar, here's what I wrote about the tool last year.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Justanothervoiceinthedesert. — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:16:53 GMT

What about a real searchable version? Wouldn't it be grand to eliminate studs you are not interested in, late foals perhaps, weak broodmare sires, old mares, consigners you don't trust and then be able to study what is left?

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Ed Zepplin — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:03:38 GMT

Increased access to information for buyers is great but I question your characterization of current paradigms as failure. Horse sales put buyers and sellers together for physical inspection. Buyers of yearlings, weanlings and 2 year olds would not buy off pictures. Good judges of horses need to see the horse in person to evaluate it properly which is different from from having it scoped and x-rayed. Due dilligence is way more than looking what happened 6 generations ago that may have no signifigant genetic impact on a horse. Broodmares with established produce records are easier to buy on paper and a picture but young athletes need to be evaluated as an individual along with pedigree. Sales are not "fantacy" leagues. They are purveyors of commerce. Evaluating the "individual" is paramount.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Worked the sales a long time — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:44:44 GMT

As far as xrays and scopes-for most horses (save some of the weaker ones at the end of the catalog) this information is in the repository. However, most buyers prefer to have THEIR vet, (the one they trust)do them and then read their results. Especially the scopes. Having this info online will not stop the amount of scoping for sure, and maybe only a little of the xrays.

The consignors update all the pedigree info up to the last minute. This information is always available at the barn and someone usually has this information and is very close to the horse selling. All you have to do is go ask.

In addition, each buyer looks at certain things in the pedigree and it differs from the person next to them. Some want sales histories, others just produce, and some want a complete unedited pedigree for several generations. Some only care about race records. This up to date information is always available for free in the pedigree booth. Many people buy publications that go into much greater detail that are released not long before the sale.

The sales catalogs are written according to international cataloging standards. How many dams appearing on that page is based on those standards. Each page has 3 generations of the family tree. Very few people look beyond that because its the family that is more important, not some mare or stallion 5 generations back. Blacktype in the 3rd dam and beyond really isn't important either. If you have no blacktype in the 1st or 2nd dams (which means you will get a 3rd and 4th dam on the catalog page) chances are 1/the horse won't bring much money and 2/chances of success are greatly diminished. The opposite is also true. Getting 1 or 2 dams that fill an entire page means the family is strong-you don't need to look at 3rd and 4th dams. You can already see the class of the family. In 10 years of working sales I have never seen anyone wanting to know anything in regards to the Lowe system of mares. Only once (and just recently) did I ever have anyone ask if a certain horse was in any of the pedigrees of horses selling. I cant for the life of me figure out why that old stallion was being searched for (his last foals are about 20 now).

In regards to uploading walking videos, photos, etc. Keep in mind these points:

1/Some consignors never see the horse until it reaches the sales ground-the day before it sells

2/expense-it costs over $1,000 to shoot full xrays. Add in scoping. Now imagine the manpower needed to get good photographs (just try photographing a yearling or weanling and getting a good shot in under 15-20 minutes). Bad pictures and video can turn buyers off of what really is a nice horse. That hurts the buyer and the seller. Add in the time it takes to upload those videos and photographs. Anyone here want to volunteer to do the close to 6,000 for the September sale?

For those bidding in the back ring without having seen a horse prior to that point consider the following: Typically these buyers are looking for horses under $5,000. Horses being sold that cheaply rarely have xrays and scopes in the repository. (are you going to spend $1,500 in vet bills,pay the consignor his fee,plus pay the auction house its entry fee and selling fee only to sell at a loss? You cut out the $1,500 and hope you get more than a $1,000 bid to get your entry money back, never mind the stud fee).

The 2nd point to consider is the time frame. Using Keeneland as an example, here is the time frame. One horse is in the ring selling. Two are located in the chute getting ready to go in. Two more are walking in the main sales pavilion. (There are more out in the back) Let's say you see a horse walking. The most number of horses ahead of that horse is 4. The average time a horse spends in the ring is 1 minute. (1 1/2 to 2 minutes is the norm during select sessions). You have 4 minutes maximum to look at xrays and scopes (and are you qualified to read those?), look at the pedigree and anything else you might want? Even with everything at your fingertips it would be a very daunting task for anyone.

While the racing industry does need to get itself together and get into the 21st century, and some of these ideas are good; they just won't work.

For those that can, come out and watch the sales. Learn what it takes to get just 1 horse through the sales ring ( I think it would shock anyone who hasn't lived it). It takes an entire team that starts weeks before the sales just to get all the required info to the auction house in time. It gets really crazy once ship in begins. That's if nothing goes wrong.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Krista — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:33:53 GMT

I've always dreamed of a database similar to Equibase's Virtual Stable or the DRF's Horse Watches for horse sales. One that would allow you to enter a female family, and have entries into sales emailed to you.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

catnip lane — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:11:17 GMT

I've always had the impression that the sales companies don't really WANT you to have more information. I don't mean this in a critical way - but they are most interested in selling each individual horse for the most money possible. That's obvious and that's their job. So they showcase each horse in the most positive way possible and limit information. The outstanding individuals are going to sell well no matter what. It's the middle to low market horses that need all the help they can get. The sales companies are hoping for the impulse buyers to help drive up the prices for the others. For example, lets say there's a nice looking weanling in the ring that gets your attention. In that moment that it's selling you only have the information in front of you on the sales catalog page. If you could access the sales results of the mare's prior offspring (lets say they've not sold well) and/or the repository information (maybe it has OCD) then you decide NOT to bid on the animal. If you don't have this information easily at your fingertips, then you might bid. Again, i'm not saying this is a bad thing on the part of the sales company. Afterall, their job is to get the most money for each offering. They want you to have to make additional effort to be fully informed as a buyer. This is just my impression over 20 years of selling/buying/observing.

Scot's reply: Catnip, you hit the nail on the head. But... the sales companies are either going to be part of a solution or they'll suffer the consequences. Twenty years ago it was possible to "slip one by" a bidder by including only glowing data on the catalog page. Information is now so universally available, though, that this model cannot last. Sales companies should be setting the standard for making MORE information available. There will always be "strong" catalog pages and "weak" pages -- and there *should be* a market for horsemen who can recognize a strong individual despite its weak pedigree. ... And some of the data will continue to be supplemental to the sale company's catalog -- nicking reports, BRIS figures, etc. -- but at least by going digital, the catalogs allow that information to be added quickly and easily when someone purchases it.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Abbie Knowles — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:58:50 GMT

Technology is wonderful and i would be lost without my computer so agree with most of what you say!!!!

I think the electronic catalogue is a great idea! And that horse racing need to move into the 21st Century pronto!!!!

Will check out the Bloodhorse Fantasy horse racing game later on today or over the weekend if i do not get the time. The racing from Nad al Sheba, which i watch on ATR, takes quite a chunk out of Thursdays when the Dubai Carnival is on!!!!!

Thanks for the thought provoking article! Hope you are better now!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Justine — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:48:58 GMT

I'd love to have the catalogs be digitized. It would make searching for particular horses so much easier.

Plus, if you make Kindle affordable so everyone could have one to browse through at the sales....

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Karen in Indiana — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 02:49:34 GMT

I love it. I was watching taped-on-the DVR November sales propped up in my recliner and using pedigreequery.com on my laptop to check out the horses that interested me. That was hog heaven! In just a few clicks, I could see back 5 generations and could check on any of the ancestors with one more click. For the broodmares, one more click & there were their progeny results. I had the downloaded sales catalog open in another window & could cross-reference with one more click.

I very much agree with you on the technolgy needing to catch up to this century. My boys are both in fantasy football leagues and the guys at work do fantasy baseball and golfing. They can argue stats for hours and do.

Having the information online, such as walking videos, radiographs & even the scopes, would be a benefit not only to the buyer, but also to the horse. Sales are stressful enough to the horse, how much less stress would the horse be under if it only had to go through these procedures once instead of multiple times for anyone interested? Since the horse should go through a checkup after the sale to finalize it, what would be the harm in putting the horse's welfare first?

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

CRob87 — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:48:21 GMT

A.I.

Oh wait, it's not being used.

But, it should be.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

Quira — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:31:43 GMT

That so called interactive horse racing game linked above is not what I would call a REAL game. No way to train your own horses. No way to breed your horses and race them. That's why I still love my English version of Winning Post after 12 years.

re: Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

sid fernando — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:48:35 GMT

Interesting stuff...i like it