Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

woodridgefarms — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 16:27:04 GMT

I have little tolerance for people saying that maiden mares are badly behaved and intimidated. Well, they can be intimidated, just as a human can be uncertain their first time. It's no different. If the mare is treated properly, well teased, things can actually go very smoothly. On my farm, my stallion's first season, we bred ALL maiden mares. 6 mares. My stallion has been maintained since the day he was born to be a breeding stallion (and I breed for both show and racing) and it was required of him to be well behaved. We tease the mares out quietly in their stalls with the door shut so they feel as relaxed as possible. They also know there is a barrier between them and the stallion and they feel extremely safe making the smoother. Once the mare shows she's ready, we bring her out and introduce her, and actually the first time she meets the stallion, she's not bred (that happens later in the day), he simply teases her a little more aggressively. She's put back to chill out a bit, then a few hours later, she's brought back out and bred. No hobbles, drugs, twitches, anything are used. If the mare will not stand quiety with more than a chain over her nose, then she's obviously not ready and we go back to step on. She's not pushed or rushed. I think it would behoove the larger farms to do a similar process. Yes, it's more time consuming, but as many others have stated - overbreeding is already an issue and we're creating disposable horses intended to last 2 or 3 years. I have horses in their 20's that I could still ride and compete if I wanted to because of my cautious breeding aspects. ANYTHING that has a possibility of being passed down genetically is not going to be bred. Yes, I'm picky. But I have not been affected as others have in this economy because I'm still producing quality horses that people know are correct, don't have genetic issues, and are going to last. Yes it sucks for the little guys, but it's going to force people to breed much more responsibly for durability than for speed like the older horses were bred. Something to keep in mind - horses used to run frequently until they were 6 or so and now it's almost unheard of.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

badbadcookie — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:49:53 GMT

I don't think humans should think of younger horses as "children" because in fact they are not. Horses usually live lives into their 30's. So in the human world, they should wait until their mid twenties to have foals when they are coming to an end of a reproductive life? Horses mature much faster than humans do. In fact, its completely acceptable in the wild for fillies to be bred as soon as they are capable of concieving. So if nature does it, then why is it so wrong for breeders to do it?

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Beyond Reason — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 05:49:44 GMT

I do not agree with breeding a 2yo...male or female. They are still growing and maturing. We all know how hard the Triple Crown is for a 3yo and what stress it places on them, yet we ask fillies to have foals by Derby time at the same age? They are different types of stresses, but both are major ones.

You might be able to make a somewhat valid argument should the filly posess an extremely rare or exceptional bloodline. That isn't the case here. Smarty Jones has yet to live up expectations. His pedigree isn't stellar either. The filly in question is a 1/2 sister to Volponi who is a Grade 1 winner. But looking further at the family, Prom Knight produced 9 foals, with 7 to race. She had a total of 5 winners, counting Volponi and the Grade 3 stakes placed Fickle Friends. Fickle Friends in turn produced the stakes winner Rewrite. Her other winners include Romp and Stomp, who has produced 2 foals and both are winners. Barynya is a winner and Prom Party is a winner and stakes placed.

2nd dam, Dancing Party produced 8 foals and had no winners. Several other daughters in addition to Prom Knight are producing, but none have winners.

3rd dam, Irish Party faired better, having 13 foals and 7 winners. Irish Escape was a stakes winner and Recitation was a Group 1 winner.

Overall, its a solid, but not outstanding family. Its not like (heaven forbid, for example)something would happen to Azeri. Azeri has no siblings and 1 daughter. You MIGHT be able to make a point in that case that she is the only living female from that female line.

We have enough horses out there racing, and certainly quite a few more that should have been culled from breeding. We can't find homes for all the unwanted horses. It certainly would have been nice to let this filly grow up before asking her to produce a foal and go through what it takes to get a filly or mare ready to go to the breeding shed.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

newsline2 — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 01:45:58 GMT

Of this naturally selected (by the horses) field breeding of Tiger Eyed to Hot Fuss, how does that pedigree of the foal look for race potential?

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Gillian — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:10:21 GMT

Why would you breed a filly that's not even finished growing herself?

Breeding yearlings and two year olds just screams money-grubbing, can't-wait-to-suck-every-last-buck-out-of-those-animals mindset. Kind of sick really.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Berne — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:52:41 GMT

Let me get this straight people are actually defending this?? Two-years-old is way too young to breed a horse. Jeez are you really in that much of ahurry that you cant' wait until the mare is at least fully grown??

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Qatmom — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:58:40 GMT

With the huge numbers of unwanted horses, are the foals of these 2 y os even profitable? If we were fighting a war based on cavalry and needed remounts, I could understand such breedings--but we are overproducing horses of all breeds/crosses. A lot of those who have 'homes' aren't so lucky, either.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Karen in Indiana — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 04:46:55 GMT

I've had Tiger Eyed in my virtual stable & have been keeping track of her works & races. Since they were able to identify the sire (I'm assuming through DNA testing?), will the foal be eligible to be registered?

Scot's reply: Yes, the foal is eligible for TJC registration.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Terry — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 04:25:57 GMT

So this poor filly is still just two years old, being a late foal, and won't turn three for another three months, but she has already had her first baby. That means she was, by birth date, still just a yearling when she was bred. And it was no accident. This was a deliberate, planned breeding.

How can a filly whose bones and muscles are still developing, who has not even reached her full growth, possibly be a fit candidate to be bred and carry a healthy foal?

If there aren't any rules against breeding a filly at such an early age, there should be. With all the unwanted racehorses being destroyed every year and the glut of new foals being born every year, why is it necessary to breed a yearling? Why would any vet or any breeder or any stallion owner agree to it? Why would the Jockey Club allow the offspring of such a young filly to be registered?

I find this shameful. As much as I love horse racing and Thoroughbreds, these kinds of stories just make it harder and harder to defend this sport to those who oppose racing.

Sure, some yearlings are capable of being bred and survive with a healthy foal. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should!

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

newsline2 — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:21:26 GMT

Scot, do you mean she's raced twice this month? Is that typical? It seems most of the stories show the horses' races are spaced further apart, but maybe there are different ways of prepping them?

Could DNA testing of likely sires be done to verify the pedigree of the foal? Or isn't it worth chasing down?

I thought it was remarkable Tiger Eyed breezed right before delivery and I think I read she did well.

Scot's reply: The Jockey Club registry shows that the sire of Tiger Eyed's filly was identified as Hot Fuss, a son of Riviera (FR) from the Sharpen Up (GB) line. ... Two to four weeks rest/training/prep are fairly standard for sound horses that run at levels below the top black type races. It used to be more of the norm for all horses to run about every 10 to 20 days, but that schedule is now seen most with claiming-level runners.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Karen — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:00:48 GMT

With all the recent talk of and responsible breeding and the need for change, I am aghast that someone would breed a two year-old filly, and that the farm where Half Ours stands would agree to breed their stallion to a two-year old filly. Most horses are not full-grown until 4-5 years old. The fact that this happened, completley contradicts the theory of responsible breeding.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Abbie Knowles — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 21:49:33 GMT

i totally agree with Barb about horses having served us well for thousands of years, and yet in many cases we are not willing to return the favour, but abuse them in one way or other. Breeding 2 Y 0 fillies is abuse as far as I am concerned! Am not even keen on 2 Y O's being raced!

If it is an accident that a 2 y o filly becomes in foal then that is different, but to do it deliberately deserves to provoke an outcry!

Do hope Tiger Eye's foal is ok and that Tiger Eye herself, has not been too traumatised by having her foal taken away and by all that has happened to her!

May God bless all our equine friends and those who truly love them!!!

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Springsmom83 — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 21:39:06 GMT

When my mare was bred the first time she was ready and willing. So much so that she intimidated the stallion. Yes, she was older, but not a problem. I have seen a few mares that were quite receptive the first time and got worse as time went on. Age and experience can go both ways.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Skye — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 21:10:48 GMT

Scot- Please try to find out the whereabouts and well-being of her foal; and if any attempt has been made at tracking back which male Tiger Eyed was around that could have fathered the foal.

Thanks!

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

newsline2 — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:30:22 GMT

Anyone know what happened to Tiger Eyed and her foal? Speaking of two year old dams.

Scot's reply: Here's the original story for those unfamiliar with it. I see that Tiger Eyed has run twice this year -- both maiden claimers at the Fairgrounds -- finishing third each time.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

ROBERT — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:28:56 GMT

While I don't like breeding a 2 year old, it does happen. Wild 2 year old horses have foals all the time. Now I know.....don't compare the wild horse to captive, but Nature will not allow a 2 year old to become pregnant if she is not physically ready. I do not agree with it.....really don't like even breeding a 3 year old, but if we did not do that either, then you can say goodbye to the greatest Thoroughbred stallion ever. Northern Dancer's dam was barely 3 when they bred her. She was covered one time and got in foal. I have bred 3 year olds before, but it is done on an individual basis, not as a rule. Normally a 4 year old is as young as I want to have a foal. I prefer 5 or older. This is just another issue in our business that is rearing its head and people are having yet another bad reaction to our game.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Wanda — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:22:48 GMT

I understand what you are saying Scot,but the first comment" most aren't willing participants" I took as meaning the mare doesn't want to get bred. You I'm sure have seen the process and mares in standing heat are generally receptive to the stallion and of course the teaser. The whole process can be a bit upsetting for some the first time they see it. At least it's less violent than in the wild with any species of animal. Thanks for your comeback and I'll try to be more tolerant in regards to comments.

Scot's reply: The first time a maiden mare is bred -- oh my! She can be absolutely shaking with intimidation ... or rebellious and confrontational. But you're right, for the most part, regardless of age, it's a fairly natural course of events, no matter how much we try to interfere with hobbles and twitches and mounting platforms and all the breeding shed paraphernalia. Most mares will be receptive, as you said, and if she's truly in heat, she's generally a ready and willing participant.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Wanda — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:00:04 GMT

Icm: It doesn't matter what age they are if their not ovulating their not going to catch. If a mare is in she will stand for the stallion{standing heat}. I find your remark about women in the breeding shed distasteful at the very least. What has gender got to do with working in the breeding shed? C'mon it's 2009 that sexist attitude went out years ago.

Scot's reply: Thanks for the heart-felt feedback, Wanda. I don't want to speak for lcm, but I read that comment differently: women were barred from the breeding shed at one point because they would have been less tolerant of any ill treatment of the horses. I read it as a compliment... hope that's how it was intended.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

lcm — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:23:29 GMT

The real travisty is that most "2 years olds" if bred early in the season probably haven't even turned 2 yet!! so some of the fillies are really being bred as yearlings based on the real calendar date....NICE!!! Oh yeah and you should see how well the actual breeding goes. Lets just say, most aren't willing participants. Theres a reason women weren't allowed in KY breeding sheds.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

kittensjoy — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:18:38 GMT

I happen to agree with Linny. Horses should not be bred unless they have proven their mettle in whatever field they have been bred for. If you're going to try and breed for a champion racehorse you really shouldn't breed a mare who may have no talent in that field whatsoever. And at two, horses definetly have not had a chance to prove their worth.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

jdz033 — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:57:48 GMT

I disagree that 2yr olds should be bred because they are like children at that point in their lives. To me it's the equivalent of a 12 year old being pregnant. I don't have a problem at all with breeding three year olds. If a mare can't make it on the track due to physical issues and her pedigree garners being bred then you have to, it's business. I love horses but if you had a small factory and you shut it down for a year, their wouldn't be a good produced, no different then breeding horses. Harsh reality, but true.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

cah — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:55:42 GMT

I feel the same about this as I do breeding a mare back after she has experienced a really hard foaling and/or dystocia. It should not be done. When this has happened, she should be given the year off for her body to recover.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Wanda — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:51:32 GMT

While I think that you should wait till their 3 yr old year, if she is healthy and mature it shouldn't be a huge concern. If she aborts or slips it for some reason, then stupid you for breeding her.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

dbjr8 — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:35:57 GMT

Most horses do not finish growing until well after two. A Filly is not considered a mare until they are 5 years old. Essentially this means a 2 year old is a child and they should NOT be bred at this time.

re: Breeding a 2-Year-Old Filly Is a Bit Taboo -- But It Happens

Barb — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:06:02 GMT

Just because people do it, doesn't make it an ethical practice. This reeks of a repulsive "puppy mill" mentality. If you can't afford for a filly to spend a year or two growing up, you shouldn't be in the business. Besides, being a former show horse person myself, the show world in general is even more ruthless than the racing world and alot less knowledgeable. I understand the economic ramifications of owning horse. I've owned horses for most of my life and I could ride before I could walk well so its been a life long long affair. I just regret that so many people consider them disposable commodities. Horses have served mankind well for several thousand years. A pity so many people aren't willing to return the favor.