Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Doghouse Dave — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:26:45 GMT

Rocklady 11 Feb 2009 2:43 PM - I know this is a way old post but thought I'd let you know that Doghouse Dave is in my barn :) Doing much better than when I found him several months ago at that.

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The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:14:31 GMT

The Kentucky Derby is only six-odd weeks away. Get ready for the ubiquitous Yum! debates.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

needler in Virginia — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:40:56 GMT

Well said, Horse Guy. Well said. It seems all the bitching over the years has been done in tack rooms on rainy days, barns between feeds, and bars between races. But then we have blogs!! Born from the forehead of the Mac, and sprouting wings on which every damned silly person on the planet can hitch a star .....BUT WAIT!! Maybe, as you point out, this and other blogs will become more useful than petty. MAYBE something said will set a spark in a brain somewhere, and that spark will become a fire, and someone will use it to solve the problems that seem unsolvable.

ME?? Although basically a snarky person, a half-empty glass person and one who can find the bad omen on a sunny day, I really am a true believer that this poor sad sport of ours has a bit of hope at its' heart. Just look in Curlin's eyes when he crosses the finish line first.......now THAT is worth working to save!

After all, we created these creatures; we created them to run faster than the wind, to run for the hell of it and love doing it. Since we made 'em, it's up to us to find some small part of the world where they can flourish, run fast, stomp the earth, and feel it tremble..and if someone makes a buck on the winner, so much the better. And I wanna be there to see it all.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Horseguy — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:03:26 GMT

As a person who makes his living breeding, breaking, training, selling, buying Thoroughbreds and have all of my adult working life. As my family before me going back five generations. So, if I may I will try and put a few things in perspective;

Abbie, you and others who think owners do not take enough responsibility for what happens to their horses after the fact are right for the most part. But it's not just the owners it's the industry and that includes the fans. Perhaps all entities of the industry should be levied an end use tax for retirement. The actual cost of this was put into real number in a well written article in the Thoroughbred Times several weeks ago. The number is quite an eye opener. Like it or not a certain amount of humane euthanasia is really the only practical solution. As long was we can keep our farm we will always have room for our retired friends to live out their lives.

As to Abbie and others who feel so strongly about horses living 23 hours a day in stalls. Well, I feel the same for the most part. But horses are very adaptable and really don't have a sense of time. Except when it comes to feeding. But in the real world we have to be practical. And it is just not realistic to think that a racing facility could devote enough land to be able to have turn out for every horse on the grounds. This being said I feel strongly that every race horses should be given time off every year. There was a great study done in Australia not too long ago that proved horses turned out for 6 weeks or so do not lose that much conditioning and can be returned to racing in short order.

As to Crob87, Needler in Va pretty much hit the nail on the head. Terry, what is your idea of the old days? I am with you on the 100 plus books but 20-30-40 years ago top stallions bred around 60-70 mares year. The average book was around 35-50. I have no problem running two years old that are up to the task. Perhaps you should do some research into bone remodeling. But I do question the competence of some the people who make that call these days. I agree on your back stretch issues. I spent a number of years there myself. Higher purses is the only thing that should solve that problem. I am a hay,oats, and water guy. I know when my horses are fit and ready. I groomed low level horses and understand why these measures are taken. But I don't condone it. Bellwether, do you know the name bellwether has something to do with a goat or sheep or something? You are right we do need a great Promoter. But I thought that is what I have been wasting my money on the Breeders's Cup and the NTRA

Quira, exactly how much money, time and effort to you have in the game? No disrespect, but there is a saying, put your money where your mouth is. We bred to Silver Charm twice, $25,000 stud fee for each mare. One foal has a very bad leg and a moderate mind. The other had no mind and could not out run a fat man. Neither went into training. The filly we bred at FOUR and hope for the best if not it will be her only shot. The other just eats grass. $50,000 down the drain. Quira, there are many things that can cause a horse to be retired early from injury and most of the time it has nothing to do with genetics. If we went by your rules the name DANZIG to name one would have no meaning.

AnneM we bred the dam of the filly to Tapit and he is a cracker. Might get us even. Alan Porter, a person that knows what he is talking about spelled out the rest. Retento there maybe a certain amount of truth to your comments. In fact if you read the rules of the Stud Book from the turn of the last century horses that were bleeder, had conformation faults or temperament problems were not allowed. I reiterate what I said to Quira above on injuries. Old Grey Mare I agree with your first paragraph not with your second. Teenagers make up a lot of the Olympic athletes. I started rock climbing and mountaineering in the late 60's I was at the top of my game as a young teenager in the early 70's. Teens have a much higher strength to weight ratio. A competent trainer knows if their 2 year has the mettle or not. Competent being the operative word. As to rant #2 well, that just does not hold a lot of water. As someone who has worked as an agent in the countries you point out and many other I can tell you that we export far more stallion prospects then we import and that goes for mares also. And I am going back 30 years of experience. We imported a lot of horse during and after the war years (WW2) because we had the money and the rest of the world had none. marcW paragraph 1 spot on. As to Drugs they have always been around. I would like to believe that due to easy and cost effective testing that we have now it will be eliminated. I would like to see a NO TOLERANCE policy. There was a time when the track Vet had to see your horse bleeding after a race before you could give Lasik. I agree there is too much racing. SundaySilenced it is the same old broken record. A lot of what is being said here I heard when I was a kid in the 60's. DonW paragraph 1 suggests to me that you are an arm chair breeder. I would be happy to take you on as a partner and will let you plan the matings and help pay the bills. # 2 you are right if we lived in a perfect world. But economic forces work in strange ways. And the race horse industry is by far not the only one that benefits from these practices. Personally it is just a stop gap. But these days unfortunately it is a necessary evil. I work 12-14 hour days 7 days a week on our farm. You are right my pay is pitiful. But if the bills are paid at the end of the month I am happy. And so are many of those or are not rocket scientist. #3 I agree 100% and have told the powers that be how I feel. The Breeders' Cup is and has been a waste of breeders money. I suggested years ago that it be run at several different tracks so that the races could go off one after another. Good for TV and good for a number of different venues. #3 Again 100%. The Derby is the most famous race in the world. Churchill put up little to nothing when you take into account nominations entry fees, TV rights, ticket sales etc. The race pays for it's self 10 fold. And they have to insult the tradition and prestige. This is the epitome of Greed. #5 100% the rules of racing state that anyone that brings disgrace by virtue of their acts shall not be granted a owners license. No one has be able to explain to me why they have been granted a license while in jail. Nor has this question been raised in the media. That includes the Bloodhorse.

People you have all made for the most part valid points and it would take a whole issue of the Bloodhorse for me to explain the give and takes. And that just what it comes down to, the give and takes. What ever the widget is. A lot of what is being said here has been said for years. There just was not a public forum like this to vent on. Yes the word greed can be thrown around and would fit certain aspects. But it is easy for those who don't get a board bill or training bill once a month to vent about. It cost from $25-$40,000 a year to keep a horse in training. It cost around $25,000+ in expenses from stallion cover to fall of the hammer to breed and sell a yearling. Neither include the cost of the race horse or the mare or stud fee. I would like to see top horses run past 3. Good for the sport, good for the fan and good for media attention. But put yourself in the owners position. Most likely if you have a horse of that caliber you have spent $100 of thousands if not millions to get that one horse. He is now worth $30-$40 million. He could die on the track or he could die getting hurt walking around the shed row and you have nothing. If he is a top 3 year old and does not perform to the same level as a 4 year old his value could drop by HALF. Ask your self. Would you be willing to risk $20 million? As to fatal injuries on the race track. It happens. Are there people involved in racing that don't care one way or another? Yes. But the vast majority want to do what ever it takes for it not to happen. And have for years. But that will never happen. We make cars safer, we make air travel safer, we try and make what ever we can safer. But the fact is nothing will ever be 100% safe. And unfortunately in this day and age nothing is pure. So do we just fold our tent and keep a few horses around for mementos or do we do the best we can for man and beast. And except the unfortunate draw back? For me it is a bit sole searching.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Quira — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:27:35 GMT

Concerned, I already said in my earlier posts that Winning Post was just a game and not the same as real life. It's just that I felt that the racing industry might be able to learn some things from how I ran my stable and my farm, not from the game itself.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Quira — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:20:07 GMT

I hate it when I keep forgetting all of what I want to write about.

Oh in addition to my earlier rants, on one of my Winning Post games, I had this male horse I named Mi'kivan. For those of you that just might happen to have the English version of Winning Post made for the Sega Saturn, he is the bay yearling colt out of Viva Nippon sired by Mikado Bourbon available at the auction the first year. Anyway, that colt always has been a good buy for me. On this one game, he won the Triple Crown and a bunch of races. My point I want to make, he retired to stud with 50 starts. He was a really tough horse. My horses that I allow to retire to stud average over 30 starts. If they were in great condition, I ran them instead of sitting on them. The best usually averaged 10+ starts a year. I did not baby my horses and they did just fine.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

CRob87 — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:05:15 GMT

I also agree with the idea of a "Racing Czar", But my question is...

Who is going to be paying his salary ???

Because if it is some of the "Powers That Be People", then "Right or Wrong", you have to know that they "WILL" have some major influence on his decisions. Which already says..."Corruption".

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

concerned — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:05:04 GMT

p.s. in light of my previous post;

I hereby resolve to breed only horses I think are worthy of this fine sport, to find a good home for those that don't fit in my programs, to buy only horses I feel promote those ideals, to race horses of good quality and to care for them in the best ways I know how. I resolve to keep myself educated on current topics inside my industry and in the care of horses and to do everything in my power to move both forward in this world in the most positive ways I can. I will withhold criticism of my industry-mates and instead will find ways to make myself useful to the promotion of this sport. I will put my own money and time into this thing that I love and hope that I leave this world a little better than when I found it.

Thank you all for the wonderful opportunity to be a part of such a great industry.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

concerned — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:57:36 GMT

Stallions covering to many mares? If you limit the books to the “good” stallions you’ll only have the mares going to lesser stallions, sure the “lines” will be more varied but the will still be diluted with lesser quality horses. You want limit? Limit the number of mares that can be bred each year. Even that has it’s complications and political grey areas.

Owners failing to take responsibility for their horses? How about owners getting over their egos and stop breeding lousy mares that don’t belong in the breeding shed. as for the horses already out there lets get a national body that groups up and organize ways to show other disciplines we have available horses for their use. One of the first things I noted upon coming to this business is that perfectly good horses can’t even bring one thousand dollars at public auction but that same horse could have brought three thousand privately if placed into the right circles and trained up. Truth is, people who want horses for something other than racing do not know how easy it is to get a quality horse for cheap. The public thinks of the horse as something that only the rich can have. Key- educate the public on a national level about horses in general then worry about getting the racing fans.

Everyone in the industry recognizes the work of back stretch workers just the same as the recognize those on the farms. You think you get paid little to be in this business? Try working for a farm where you aren’t handling these valuable racehorses. Trust me; you’ll think you’re rich. You’ll also understand why we have more workers than other forms of equine work.

Stuck in the stalls? Find a way to help trainers get horses out more. Who wants to trailer and move horses that much? Upsetting them just so they can go out and play doesn’t do anymore good for them than boarding them all afternoon. (and depending on the trainer horses are getting out at least for training everyday, that’s more than most people get out to move all day) key- help trainers out, instead of yelling at them suggest alternatives.

Night racing is a great idea. Except when you ask the people who work on the track. It makes their schedules a living hell. Yes, it would give more people the opportunity to go to the races but why not just shift it to evening. No one is going to hang around the track at 10pm if they aren’t going to be there at 4pm.

The facilities. Yes, many are ugly, old and outdated. They need to be brought up to a more sophisticated level of warm and inviting. Current horsepersons going to the track need to take better care of their playgrounds instead of just blaming the facilities though. How many of you leave trash lying around your tracks all the time? Why invest millions to make a place look better if the people who use it pretend it’s a trashcan anyway? It won’t prove much to put a fresh slab of color on the wall if the current fans aren’t willing to do a little something to improve life spans of what we’ve got.

It’s not just the “powers that be” that are complaining. It seems everyone’s got a complaint, very few solid answers and no one is stepping up to say “fine. Here’s what I will do to improve what influence I have on this industry and here’s what I won’t” could be a simple as not trashing your local facilities. Think about it.

Fans. Yes, fans want to see the great ones race longer but to be honest all the sport needs is a better marketing scheme. There are lots of horses that don’t retire at 3 and they don’t all suck. This is probably the only sport I haven’t seen so some national marketing for the sport on the whole. Where are the commercials of so and so vs. so and so? Highlight “hip” horse stars that are kicking onto the scene. After all the fans who are keeping up with the bloodhorse, the TDN and such can easily name 2 or three horses that are 4 or 5 years old that are out there doing something. All we have to do is move that spotlight onto them in a public advertisement. Build up some hype on trainers –for better or worse- on owners, teams, jockeys; create something that people can watch. Think about baseball… it has good players, it has bad players, those in trouble for steroids etc etc. but they are on the national scene and there are a lot of people who can name players or teams even if they don’t follow game by game all year long. Key- our marketing kind of sucks. There is nothing universal about it, it stays solely within our own markets and highlights individuals (often sales oriented because the only ones who stand to gain are the sales companies) try and get something industry wide done, circulate more information than just the ky derby. It’s not like we don’t have people from every aspect of life in this business. Fantastic business people make up every aspect of this industry from owners to breeders etc. use those connections, market what we really are.

Money in breeding? NASCAR makes plenty of money from supplies and equipment and I’ll bet you it is roughly the same ratio as in tb racing. Difference? Instead of complaining about how much money goes where they spend a lot more money on marketing to the fans. Giving fans reasons to watch without all the drama behind who is getting money for providing the sports cars. By the way, look at how much it costs to maintain a fleet of racecars… pretty similar to how much it costs to purchase horses and maintain them. Stop making excuses start marketing the good stuff. That’s what the public wants. Stop shooting yourselves in the foot. The more we fight, the more we blog about what’s wrong the more the public sees us falling apart from the inside. Confidence breeds confidence.

Jess Jackson wants to use curlin as a bank account? Fine. There are a lot of owners out there that never visit horses they have except to be updated on how this breathing portfolio is doing. Now step back. We get rid of all these people who have their own motivations for owning racehorses and what do we have? A lot less owners. Again, stop complaining! For what ever reason they have THEIR horses and are paying US to take care of them, to play with them, love them, which should be fine with us, they keep our industry going. It is these people who are spending sometimes seeming outrageous amounts of money to keep this sport alive. How many NFL teams regularly see their owners visit the players eh? I’ll bet just as many. Key- for what ever reason owners are investing in our industry LET THEM! You tell them to be ashamed of what they do and they will leave us too.

Racing horses before they turn two? That is an owner’s decision at this point. You want horses to race at a more natural age? Shift the birthday of horses back to June. Probably will never happen so just resolve to yourself that you will not race a horse at two. Eventually this mentality of the better horses being older will shift for everyone, it will take time but it all begins with you.

Breeding fillies that are under three? I agree. They should not be bred for any reason under 3. Help owners find an alternative because a horse that isn’t “working” to take care of itself is a drain financially. Sheds could refuse to breed fillies that don’t match criteria. Still have the politics of money to work around. Again. It all begins with you. Refuse to do it yourself, I see so many in this industry criticize things but not follow through on their gut. To many people want to complain about what’s wrong in this industry instead of doing what they can to improve it. We don’t have to campaign a topic just because it’s huge. Start with the small stuff and work our way up.

Drugs? Despite the use of steroids and the CONSTANT REMINDER to the public how horrible we all are in this industry by US, we have improved since the old days. Ask any old timer about their barns on the backstretch and the concoctions horses use to receive to make them good enough for a race. I do agree that if a horse isn’t healthy it shouldn’t be raced but then individuals need to stand up for the horses in their care, educate owners about why it will be good to wait. And, have FIA standards EVERYWHERE. Stop leaving it to the individual tracks. It isn’t easy to stay competitive if someone can take their horse elsewhere. … on that same note, tracks need to realize there are hundreds of other horses out there to take that one horse’s place. Use some leverage, really ban trainers and owners from your track if they are caught using. Don’t re-nig; don’t give in to the politics. BAN those that violate the rules, after all the good of the sport should be greater than the individual.

A real promoter! YES! The industry does not have a real promoter. Every sport out there that gets recognition has promoters. Educated in marketing, advertising and pr. We don’t. and if we do you sure as h*ll never hear anything good come out of them. The only promotion we have done lately is to apologize for everything we do, good or bad and try to cater to “outsiders” who have no intention of doing anything but tear down our beautiful sport. Stop promoting the negative within the industry first. Hire someone who knows how to market. Stop trying to get everyone to love us! You want people to pay attention? Pretend we are the elite. Why do kids imitate rappers and movie stars? Because they have something normal people can’t have. We should treat horses like the bling that they are. They are a commodity not a necessity. They are only necessary to those of us who depend on them for our paycheck. Even the horses can survive without us, albeit in smaller numbers and perhaps even lesser quality care. Get the famous into our sport and their legions will follow. How are you going to do that? Use the famous people we already have. There are plenty of people out there among our owners and employees that are “big” outside the horse world. –and don’t play the game where you watch your associations- every industry has connections they wish they could forget about but as long as we don’t give in to the politics and bicker amongst ourselves we’ll weather the storms and be ok.

Sire lines all get their chance. Why would anyone invest money in a horse they don’t like or that they can’t market? I sure hope that’s now how you invest in the real world business, if you do then it’s no wonder no one listens to you. Even terrible studs have their chance to breed as long as they are intact. You have the opportunity to ship your horse throughout the world even to the backyard of some guy in Iowa that loves his old track star. Key- you get to breed your horse to anyone you want. You want a sire to do well? Stop complaining and start putting your money where your mouth is. The more hype you can create the more likely he will be able to get some mares, money will get you the trainers, caregivers and entries to races, genetics and luck will have to take it from there.

Winning post? This game is a little bit more complicated than a video game. Go ahead and buy some horses. If you can maintain that same strict program then by all means promote it and live by it. I’ll bet you that video game doesn’t take all the factors of feeding, grooming, shoeing, vet care etc that the real life game deals with on a daily basis) However, this industry could use a little less squabbling about which way is the right way to take care of a racing/breeding stable. After all even in math there are sometimes multiple solutions that produce the same result. Let’s focus on what we are doing instead of what everyone else isn’t. and for those in the racing game, try life as a breeder and then complain about what makes the world go round (and vice versa, each side has its positives and negatives, maybe if the people of this industry would take the time to educate themselves about what they do a little more then they can begin to educate others.)

Shuttling stallions ruined the world? It’s a hella lot cheaper than shipping mares, not to mention all of the issues related to spreadable diseases. AND there are already a lot of owners who do ship mares worldwide to their favorite sires. One could argue that you limit the gene pool by not shipping. Regardless of how we breed there are going to be arguments about how bad it is for the gene pool. Instead of complaining just do your part to breed, buy or race horses you consider good. Best to the best and hope for the best!

Curlin. Do you want to pay his insurance to keep him racing? It’s a better business move than pushing a valuable horse till he gets hurt. Let’s just say he had raced Curlin and something horrific happened that prevented him from going to the breeding shed. Then you would complain how the world was deprived of his valuable offspring. It’s Mr. Jackson’s horse, he is entitled to do with it what he pleases. Don’t like it? Buy or breed and train your own superstar…

Slots. You can argue both sides of the coin… but seriously, if this sport can’t survive without slots then it won’t survive. What the industry needs is a better marketing plan, an actual marketing team and a little self pride.

Handicappers- everyone has an opinion, these guys getting paid to do it are getting paid for a reason. If you think you’re better then maybe you should consider a career in handicapping. (and yes, I agree we could have better talking heads as our spokes persons when it comes to putting the races on TV. I am often ashamed to watch racing with friends outside our industry for the poor information they receive from those posing as our voices) but still the key is so many in this industry spend so much time complaining about what everyone else is doing instead of focusing on what they themselves can do to improve our sport. And in all likely hood that is why we have so many people talking and talking and talking and no real action being taken. WHAT CAN YOU DO RIGHT NOW TO HELP THIS SPORT YOU LOVE? COMPLAIN? TRY AGAIN.

Withholding money from a track because you don’t like the surface isn’t going to make the situation better. Why not instead find a way to put your energy to good use and help the tracks find that ideal surface? Let’s all do our part!

As for donw. We can’t police every aspect of our industry to make sure the riffraff are gone. And frankly no matter how hard you try you will never accomplish it. Face it, there will be things about our industry we wont’ like no matter what we change. It’s the same in every sport, business and home. Every person out there has something they don’t like about themselves; we can’t cut off every offending item and expect to survive. The only thing to do is do what you can to improve to the best of your ability, learn to be happy with what you have and enjoy this beautiful sport for all the good that is in it.

People put an awful lot of faith in what the commercial does for the breed. Has anyone done any research on which horses are wining the most races? There more breeders out there racing what they produce than you think. (and some of them are only selling what they don’t want for their own stable) seriously… think about it.

Injuries- try reading DRF’s “Champions” sometime. A good majority of our heroes of past retired due to injury, our modern horse is not so different.

Greed isn’t what drives all of us. The principles of business do. We don’t put our money where we are doomed to fail. We put our time and our money into those pursuits that will provide us with a return, be it money, or happiness.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

CRob87 — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:55:09 GMT

I agree with 99% of what everyone is saying. BUT, I really don't think too many of us are thinking in "Reality".

I agree that all of the horses should get out of their stalls for more than an hour a day. But, the Reality of it is...if You, Yourself aren't the ones to do it then who will ??? Like they say "If you want it done right, then you have to do it Yourself".

And then for all of the horses stabled @ the Track, where do you take them ??? Other than walking them around the shedrow (which others have already stated that other Trainers hate it because it disturbs their horses), there aren't any Grassy Paddocks to let them run free in. And even if there were then how many fights would there be about who's turn it is or who's over-staying their alloted time ???

And BTW...Wasn't the old school belief as to why it was better to keep a horse in his stall was so that he wouldn't hurt himself while in a paddock ??? My memory is a little off these days, but it sounds vaguely familiar.

Also...the reason that everyone retires almost every horse to stud (deserved or not), is because in todays Industry that is our new "Holy Grail". A "Triple Crown Winner" may be the "Brass Ring" of Thoroughbred Horse Racing, but a "Sire Of Sires" is the new "Holy Grail". And with past success stories like "Vice Regent" who was "Unraced" and yet went on to have a very successful stud career....Who can really blame them for trying ???

So...I agree with most of your ideas and complaints, But, Realistically I also don't believe that all of it "Can" be solved.

Revelations of the Catalog Page, Part II -- The Thoroughbred Industry's Techno Failure

The Five-Cross Files — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:38:35 GMT

I'm starting out my rant-and-rave session by censuring Thoroughbred industry participants for refusing to embrace the types of technology that could revamp our sport.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Julie L. — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 23:36:32 GMT

This use to be a "gentleman's sport", now it's Big Business and we all know where Big Business leads us, a tanking economy. When all that matters is the "big bucks" then quality goes down and quantity goes up. It's simple economics which we did not need in the Thoroughbred world. Limiting the amount of mares bred to a stud at a more reasonable number which to me would be no more than 60 mares would help immensely. I have noticed when looking at the pedigrees and reading how many SWs each stallion produced that increasing the amount of foals born and raced did not truly improve that much on the number of SWs. Yes, there are some who were well over 100 to 200 but most do not even reach the 100 mark, in fact it seemed to hover between 50 to 70. With more foals racing from one particular popular stallion then chances are the stallion will have more SWs as there are less foals competing from the not so popular stallions. Hype and popularity is what builds up a stallion prospect even if a person's gut reaction when choosing a stallion prospect shows unstable temperment or physical problems. If we would stick by soundness and ability then the Thoroughbred horse and the industry would benefit greatly. Keeping horses on the track longer (preferably through their 6 year old season) would show durability, soundness and greatness. Let's hope that with Jess Jackson leading the way (it wasn't IEAH) that some industry people will begin to wise up.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

needler in Virginia — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 23:16:27 GMT

Buffy......I read all the time, so that's one reader you've found!

And DonW....AMEN and AMEN! All the years we showed dogs (and it was a LOT of years, m'dear!) we knew there were some lines to avoid, some bitches that would NEVER be bred, and some dogs that should never set foot in a show ring...PERIOD. We all know of TB sires with crappy feet, dicey shins, excessive bleeding problems, OCD's (ah, well, we won't go there), etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. We all know of mares that slip often, have terrible trouble conceiving, have wacky cycles, as well as any of the physical problems mentioned above. As far as I'm concerned these are NOT good breeding prospects and should NOT be bred....EVER! I have said before and will repeat: NOT EVERY HORSE SHOULD BE BRED, BE IT MARE OR STALLION. Not all produce SOUND, sensible babies; a LOT will pass on problems, and some of those problems are huge. Maybe the stinky financial situation will, by attrition, weed out the marginal breeding prospects when no one will want to buy a yearling out of a bleeding mare by a stallion with rotten feet. WE CAN ONLY HOPE.

Racing needs a nasty bastard to sit as a "czar"; someone who understands racing and its' financial impact on the country BUT IS NOT FINANCIALLY CONNECTED TO RACING. A "drug czar" can't fight drugs if his/her income is derived from renting poppy fields in Turkey. A "racing czar" cannot evaluate racing's problems if his/her income is derived from the sale of two year olds in training! DOH........ But we really do need someone who can sit down with the Jockey's Guild, the TOBA, the NTRA, the equine vets, track owners and any other group that has (or SHOULD have) input and listen to everyone. Then evaluate the various positions and go from there, but until all US racing is under the same umbrella of concern for the horse (which is the first job for every horse person) nothing is gonna get done. Well, maybe a little here and there, but nothing of any import will happen.....mostly because everyone --and I MEAN EVERYONE -- retreats behind his/her own point of view and does not see the entire picture. Kind of like describing the elephant by examining only its' trunk???

SEE?? I CAN make positive suggestions and not be TOTALLY snarky, but isn't venting a great thing for a Wednesday afternoon??

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

helsbelles — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:52:48 GMT

Rocklady: I read you loud and clear. Soooo many horses I have wondered what has happened to them??? You NEVER find out. I can tell you that Smokey Stover was retired because he was not able to perform at the top level after BC 2007. I do not know exactly where he is, but I am sure is doing fine... one of the lucky ones because of his connections. The folks here that are promoting their website... I hope you make a ton of money, because that is what it's all about, isn't it? People who think racing needs better promotion are laughable... it's tantamount to putting a coat of glossy paint on a run down shack and calling it a mansion. Bottom line: PROTECT THE HORSES! Unless a person is a hardcore gambler ("degenerate"), the death of horses on the track is a huge turnoff... people are squimish about that. A relative of mine is a bartender in a place where the bigwigs congregate. I always ask does anyone ever request horse racing? Definitive answer is "NO, NEVER". But, the day after Kentucky Derby 2008, guess what everyone at his bar was talking about?? Racing needs to clean up its act, BEFORE it attempts to attract newbies. What is the fan to do FOR BIG RED? I feel powerless... the only impact I can have is to turn away.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Buffy Trott — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:49:00 GMT

It's our attention span. Nobody has one anymore. Everything has to be really fast or the media will lose us. The movie and music industry will lose us. Seriously, who really reads books anymore?

That means the up and coming generations of trainers and jockeys and owners, their little brains are wired for faster and sooner. No patients or tolerance for animals that don't watch TV. The Animals are the same, well not entirely. We are so eager that I don't even think we think of the complications we've caused with our bloodlines. But still they are animals that need time and patients. Time to grow physically and mentally. Time to be understood. Time to play. I grew up in Hunter/jumper land. And today the best of the best are stuck inside and hand walked. I don't want a jumper who can't go out and play. If they go outside and run and jump, I think then they get a better understanding of how their own body works. If my horse can run around trees, spin on a dime, and buck around. Well then I know he can spin on a dime in a jump off course. If he can spaz out outside, then even he gets an understanding of what he's capable of. How can they do that when they are put away 23 hours a day. Think about how weird and rank solitary confined prison inmates are trapped 23 hours a day. That's what you get on the track.

An Animal that, can't think straight, with a body he doesn't know what to do with, and we want him to hurry up, not get injured, and just when he's figured it out, we ship him off to make more. Just when the people at home have formed an attachment, it's bye bye, on with the next.

But what do you expect? We watch these 24 hour a day news channels that have a running ticker we read, while listening to the news, plus the 3 additional boxes on the right with extra streaming video. We multi-task our news while watching it.

The good old days are just that. Good, old and gone. If we as a world lost our TV's, and Computers, then we would slow down again. When the power goes out we freak out. But if it stays out for a few days, we slow down. I've been in a few hurricane power outage's in my life time. 7 days with out power being the longest. Each time, I was actually sad, when the power came back on. I read a book and got to know my family again. We would have to hang out around candle light, play games, and talk. Imagine a world like that. Now we communicate thru text messages. Even Obama didn't want to give up his Blackberry.

So You wonder why the industry is the way it is today? Why the horses break down so much? Why the people we want to attract to it don't seem to stay very long? Nobody wants to get attached to an animal that may die right in front of us, or leave for the breeding shed ten minutes after it shows up on our TV. Either we are in a hurry, or the people who are in the industry are in a hurry. Hurry, Hurry, Hurry. Instantaneous gratification!! Which in itself is a whole other Blog. And I don't see it changing anytime soon. And or it's changing all the time, and I don't think for the better.

In an Industry where we want everything to go really fast, won't get any better until we slow down. Like the good old days. It makes me very sad to see it become what it has. Just like I remember my great Grandmother being sad at how things had changed in the late 1970's. She thought things were bad then. Imagine if she was alive today. Wow! Ok enough from me. If any one id reading this. Slow down take a deep breath. Read a book, or a newspaper for that matter. I'm only 41, and already I pine for the past. Just let the horses be horses again. Imagine what it would be like if we just let the Horses do that for awhile. Imagine!

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Small Steps — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:42:17 GMT

First off, the Triple Crown will never be changed to run for older horses. You would have to put asterisks beside all the winners from here on out because they didn’t win the original version that only 11 three year olds won. It won’t happen.

However, getting a series like it for older horses, that’s the kind of incentive we need right now. Face it, with the current obsession of sending horses to the breeding shed the first change that we need to make is in the racing. If you can get horses racing at four and five and see who wasn’t just a blip on the radar, then owners are going to change who they’ll breed to. If you’re given a choice between a horse who won at three but then couldn’t win at four and five versus a horse who came into his own and won at four and five; you’re gonna have more mares sent to the second horse. If not just because everyone seems to have short term memory in racing and doesn’t remember what a horse did a few years ago. And that’s gonna be the horse that stayed sound and kept winning, and that’s what we need right?

And honestly I have to say that with the non-racing people I know around my neck of the woods, people are getting less and less interested in picking horses for the Derby. Why? Because over the years every time they picked a horse it was retired before they even got to enjoy saying, “Oh that’s the horse I bet to win the Derby”. (Ok yeh, slight exaggeration but I’m sure you get the point). That’s why I think there aren’t more new fans coming to the races.

(Oh and someone mentioned the excitement caused by Big Brown’s shot at the Triple Crown. I hope me and even my non race savvy friends (who only here what’s on TV) weren’t the only ones actually hoping Big Brown wouldn’t win the Triple Crown because he was such an unsound horse we thought he’d be almost disrespectful to compare with Secretariat and Citation).

And I fully agree that we breed way too many mares to certain studs. There are probably well over 1000 studs available and how many stand for over $100,000? Not too many, and yet everyone wants to go to them. Who cares about the $5000 stud right down the road with the same inbreed pedigree, I’m sending mine to the $100,000 stud because he throws good foals. Well who’s to say that if the $5000 stud had just as many foals out of just as nice mares that he couldn’t have the same results? Not everything is about the genes of the parents; there are environmental factors that are going to add to a foal’s heart, fighting spirit, and other things that he’ll need to win. I know it’ll never happen but I’m in the heart of an area with the $5000 studs, had to give them attention.

Ok, I have been dying for a place to write my own opinions out for awhile now, I feel much better. And no I’m not an expert it’s just my thoughts so I don’t expect anyone else to agree with them.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

dianne — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:09:45 GMT

The thoroughbred horse should begin using a thoroughbred keuring to evaluate the prospective breeding horses. They have to pass keuring type criteria at certain times in their lives and if they gain the highest rating at 5 years old, they would be allowed to breed. Also, breeding horses would be evaluated on their offspring as well. The Jockey Club should not allow registration of foals from stallions who have not raced until at least their 5 year old year. Retirement due to injury speaks unsoundness loud and clear.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Lauren — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:06:11 GMT

I totally agree on the stall confinement issue. Horses are outdoor animals - they develop bad habits, get cranky and sick when they are in their stalls for too long. I also once worked at a farm where they would flag down the horses when they would start running (not a racehorse farm). LET THEM BE HORSES! LET THEM RUN! It will just make them even weaker if they can't work out their legs.

As far as the thoroughbred industry, it annoys me how many pedigress are just FLOODED with Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospecter. Come up with some new crosses!

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Justine — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:43:41 GMT

I hate that so many good three year olds get rushed off to stud. I find the epitome of this to be 2007 - Street Sense, Hard Spun, and Any Given Saturday all retired to stand at stud as four year olds. Why? They're not even fully mature, they can still run, I know for a fact that Hard Spun and Any Given Saturday could have given Curlin a run for his money. But no, Darley could make more money retiring them to stud so we never saw them last year. Then there's Henrythenavigator and Raven's Pass. They might have whomped all comers this year, but nope, they're off making a new generation of runners.

And while I appreciate the Northern Dancer line, I hate that it's EVERYWHERE. Same with Raise A Native (especially up close), and specifically Storm Cat. Unraced sons, injured sons, they all get a chance at stud because they're sons of Storm Cat. Never mind that some of them have terrible conformation, never mind some of them have terrible pedigrees (even with that 500K stud fee), never mind that plenty of them can't run for @%#$, they all get a chance to saturate the American bloodlines with more Storm Cat.

We need variety. We need stamina. We need outcrossing. We need route races, and good purse money for route races. I'd love to see the days of the rangy, tough Thoroughbred come back. These Quarter Horsey racehorses drive me insane.

It's all about breeding to sell, not breeding to race. Let's end it!

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Rocklady — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:43:14 GMT

I think everyone who has written has made very good observations concerning the problems in Thoroughbred racing and I agree with everything that's been said. I think we need to have honest and more thorough reporting of injuries and fatalities: I don't know how many times I've seen a horse break down or eased, but unless they're put down on the track, you rarely find out what happened to them. Sometimes you can correspond directly with the track and sometimes you'll get an answer. Sometimes not. We need better follow up and communication -- perhaps then we'd have a more complete picture of which bloodlines are having problems.

I'd also like to see some follow-up on horses that are no longer racing. Too many times, horses just drop off the radar. If the horse is really famous, you do get a little information from time to time, but the rest just disappear from sight. For example, whatever happened to Smokey Stover and Too Much Bling? These were fairly well-known horses, and if there's never any up-date on them, the lesser known horses just vanish. Does anyone know what happened to Sweet and Salty and Doghouse Dave from California or Vallanata from Florida? Many of the claimers have fans and it's hard to keep fan interest up when well-liked horses disappear seemingly without a trace.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Abbie Knowles — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:37:40 GMT

Very interesting comments. Most of which I agree with and GREED is a big problem. But we really do need to get across what a great sport racing is as unitedthoroughbreds.com rightly remarks.

People will not be attracted by negativity. Although on saying that lots does need to be done to get racing back on track.

However the Triple Crown series of races does give the opportunity to focus on the beauty of the horses and the excitement of the races! Lets hope there are some real CHAMPIONS around this year and that they do not get retired at 3 and then made to cover 100 to 200 mares! Or to become broodmares when they are not yet fully mature themselves! And that those who do not make the grade are rehomed happily.

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Beth — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:18:16 GMT

What ever happened to the old way of breeding horses? Good question.Taht was to breed for soundness and stamina. And then speed.

Now it is breed for good looks in the sales ring and for fast times under saddle during the 2 year olds in-training sale. Then there's the trend to in-breed, in breed, in-breed.

It may be too late to stop the inbreeding as the modern throughbred is already so in-bred.

But what can be done is;

Not to start running horses until they are at least a full 2 and a half years old by their real birthdates, not their January 1st birthday.

Geld horses who are unsound or have problems like brittle hooves, recurrent lameness, breathing problems, these things are passed on to their foals. Drugs and surgery should not longer be an option to mask or ignore these genetic problems

Limit the book of good stallions to no more then 90 mares a year.

And lastly, the Triple Crown should be for 4 year olds...and older horses. Obviously, a three year old can't do it anyway more. Thanks to the above mentioned problems.

A four or five year old would be better able to handle the rigor of the Triple Crown trail. This would also take the pressure off younger slower maturing horses to get them ready for a grueling spring campaign as a three year old.

It would also encourage owners to keep their horses racing longer. If a horse misses winning the Triple Crown as a four year old, he can come back and try again next year.

A defending Triple Crown champion...think how exciting that would that be!!??

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

Unitedthoroughbreds.com — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:45:09 GMT

Everyone here has made some very valuble points that definitly have merit but I am going to jump in here and instead of ranting, pitch some positive! I am sure for anyone who has seen "the secret" we all know what focusing on all of this negative stuff is going to do!

We all know that this sport needs some POSITIVE exposure in the media. We need to get people out to the tracks! Lets have writers start to write about the great racing stories back in the day, lets hear stories about horses that won the triple crown. I promote and love to watch shows like "jockeys" on animal planet. Some may knock IEAH but just before the Belmont was run the EXCITEMENT of Big Brown possibly winning the Triple Crown was HUGE! People who don't normally follow racing knew that if he won it would go down in history. All the possible Kentucky Derby entrants has been exciting, we need to get these stories back in our local and national papers. I am not saying that we shouldn't pay attention to the problems in our sport but to people who don't follow horse racing regularly that's all they are hearing about. If we want horses to run longer careers let's bring more attention to the stakes races for older horses, lets get those purses bigger. Make the owners WANT to run in bigger races after 3. Sure the breeding money is big and that's why they retire they don't want to risk it, but let's get people going to the horses that HAD a longer career. Breed more to them. I can go on and on and I'm definitly not knocking any of the previous posts here, I just want to say that if we want the sport to grow WE EACH have to find a way to get excited about it not pick out the negatives. If we want the good old days back we need show the world how exciting this sport can be to participate in. Let's get focused on how many great looking horses there will be for the derby this year! Get a buzz going outside the Thoroughbred world and back into the public spotlight! I hate to spoil the "ranting" but with Woodbine opening the backstretch today and our new Partnership company United Thoroughbreds launching its first syndicate we are EXCITED!! AND theres no better way to promote this sport and bring back the old days of racing than to get EXCITED ABOUT IT!

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

ROBERT — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:14:05 GMT

I agree with Alan that Pulpit is a top sire or at least considered one, but Tapit......way to early to say that about him. But.....bred the way he is, he offspring should enjoy a stretch out.

My list starts and ends with the breeding industry. I am so tired of hearing every Kentucky Derby day that it's been "X" amount of years since a Triple Crown winner. We all KNOW that. Stop harping on the negative. We probably won't have another triple crown winner at the current distances. I say good!!! If a Thoroughbred cannot go 1 1/4 miles and 1 3/16th miles and then 1 1/2 miles, they don't deserve it. If we would stop breeding to sire lines like Storm Cat and Mr Prospector and Unbridleds Song, we might have a chance, but they are the money makers. Storm Cat has a crappy mind and passes that bad trait along. Unless he gets bred to a stout mare, his get don't like going a distance of ground...{over 1 1/8 miles}. Mr Prospector has bad knees and legs, and he passed that along, and his get absolutely don't want a route of ground. Same thing about needing a super stoute mare to have offspring to get at least 1 1/4 miles. Unbridled's Song also has a bad mind and tends to sire unsound horses. Ever wonder why South American breeders don't have more Storm Cat and Mr. P blood? Its because they are not tough enough to stand up to their upbringing and racing. I don't mean Storm Cat tough.....you can change tough to stupid and that would fit better. They raise their horses outside in all kinds of weather and they don't baby them. They adopt the thinking that until the horse PROVES he can run.....his pedigree means nothing!! Our industry starts with the Breeding of our racing stock. If we don't demand quality stock, we won't have a quality product to show off.

re: Will the Good Old Days of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Ever Return?

BridleWise — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:05:08 GMT

One word is all that is needed to describe the problems in horse racing today: GREED.

GREED is what causes horsemen, tracks and executives look towards the "get rich quick" schemes of legislating slots at tracks instead of improving the actual racing product so that people actually WANT to come to the track and feel like the sport has enough integrity for them to place a bet on it.

GREED is what causes all the "powers that be" in racing(horsemen's groups, tracks, ADW's) to fight over the ever-dwindling simulcast product without figuring out to create new fans and make that product grow.

GREED is what causes trainers and owners to use drugs on sore horses, push 2 year olds to race in April and keep horses in training 365 days a year without rest.

GREED is what causes the sport to lose its superstars to the breeding shed at age 3, year after year, regardless of the impact those early retirements have on the overall fan base of a sport struggling to survive.

GREED is what causes stallion promotors to book 150 mares to their at best mediocre stallions, regardless of soundness, usefullness of its offspring, inbreeding or other issues.

Right now, in America, GREED makes the racing world go round.

GREED is an ugly word and is an even uglier term when in action...and yet horse racing seems so wrapped up pursuing "greed" that we are blind to where it is leading us...straight into oblivion as a sport and as an industry.

A Swiss Proverb says: "A greedy person and a pauper are one and the same."

Let's stop the greed before the whole industry becomes the pauper...