Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Happy2bABuyer — Fri, 22 May 2009 02:51:31 GMT

I knew there was a reason, other than the fact shes going to be a great horse for the price, we made our purchase of a 2 year old in training from Adena!

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

needler in Virginia — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:30:18 GMT

While I know this blog is probably dormant, I just read a report from the OBS that there were five crop violations during the works for buyers........well done. VERY well done, folks. Seems a point has been made from an unexpected quarter! The thought of EVER buying a two year old in training at one of these sales makes me dream lovingly of having my lungs removed with a spoon...a real choice?? NAH, give me the spoon every time........YE GODS!

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Abbie Knowles — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 02:32:11 GMT

Great article and I too don't like seeing these babies put under so much pressure to clock fast times either.

It is good that these blog sites tackle so many controversial issues and give anyone a chance to air their views and if change is needed then to lobby for it.

Well done to The BloodHorse for allowing controversy and strong views on so many topics. I for one enjoy the blog sites very much and have learnt so much from those who contribute. So many thanks.

I hope an end can be put to making two year olds go so fast in the breeze ups and that it is possible to go back to the traditional way of "judging" a horse's capability. I agree with what you say in this article and with many of the comments.

Have registered with the horse racing fantasy game but not yet had chance to play but am looking forward to doing so! It sounds really great so thanks for that too!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

majorca — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:33:14 GMT

I believe when Dr. Bramlage said that training two year olds does help strengthen their bones, he meant in gradually increasing gallops, followed by controlled breezes - not making them go as fast as they possibly can down the stretch on a specific day. I also read that a large percentage of the " big" horses are homebreds, who don't need to perform before they're ready, and can be prepared for racing appropriately and in a timely manner.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

CRob87 — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:23:10 GMT

I know most of us on here think that a sub 10.0 time is a bad idea, BUT...

In light of Dr. Bramalage's article, The (supposed) Jockey Club study and the Quick Fact from the OBS...i'm not exactly sure what to think about it now.

At least not untill we can see a full Report of the Numbers (Total Lifetime Wins, Starts and Earnings) of these sub 10.0 runners. And even the true technical ages of the horses at the time of the sale. In case that makes a difference.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Horse Sense — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:28:53 GMT

Lion Heart was a fast worker who was sound a durable, we can all find examples of horses that were sonund and horses that were unsound based on their early training. Barbaro did not go through a 2yo sale neither did Eight Bells. These are the two most visible breakdowns in the industry in the recent past. Maybe they woyld still be alive if they had the conditioning that the fast 2yo sales horses had early in their lives.

If people are going to make coments on this industry they should educate themselves a little before they start making claims about things that they know very little about

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

majorca — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:00:49 GMT

So, if so many people agree that this is a bad idea, and the industry as a whole is trying to show more concern for the welfare of the horse and do damage control of its tainted image, WHY ARE WE STILL DOING THIS?

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Springsmom83 — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:15:39 GMT

I am not in the market to buy at this time. However, my first choice would be a yearling that I could prepare the way that I wanted to. My second choice would be a 2 year old that was going a quarter in about 25 or 26 right now. Blazing fast is not the way to go, perhaps that is why so many top 2 year olds don't pan out as 3 year olds. I still think that a stallion that is a one or 2 year wonder should not be bred from. In order to promote longevity stallions should race a minimum of 3 years and retire sound and RACE UNMEDICATED! We may lose some speed, but we would be breeding sounder horses.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Jequine — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:07:58 GMT

When it comes to $ spent, yes. But, do they ALWAYS pick the fast ones? I think that the top buyers pick the ones that they think will be good on and off the track. Potential breeding stock.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Jerome — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:32:41 GMT

Wrong Again. Demi has always been a strong believer in the 2-year-old market. He's just very selective. Ferguson has been the leading buyer at many juvenile sales, as have Jess Jackson, Bob Lewis, Zayat, Satish Sanan, Mike Ryan, Puglisi, etc.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Jequine — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:40:37 GMT

I would NOT say that the leading buyers participate. Rarely do you see Demi O'Byrne or John Ferguson participate in the 2yo buying. They tend to buy yearlings and mares. The one instance that comes to mind is a poor example in The Green Monkey.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Jerome — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:58:15 GMT

Before spouting off about this, why don't you check out the fact sheet published on the OBS website? It refers to a Jockey Club study that categorically proved that horses prepared to work at juvenile sales outperform every other group in terms of quality, longevity, and soundness. You don't have a clue about the level of care and professionalism that is inherent to the 2-year-old in training industry. Why else would the world's leading buyers participate like they do?

Scot's reply: Thanks for your comments, Jerome. I see a Quick Facts sheet about the success of OBS select 2YOs but I haven't found the study by The Jockey Club that you refer to. Please send the link!

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

MATT H. — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:53:35 GMT

i couldnt the atical more i think that pushing a 2yearold is a wrong move its a good way to break bones and i think if you noticed over the past several years we have had more horses brake bones what ever happen to a hore with some longevity that could run longer instead of runing 6-7 races adn having to quit i think this is what we havent seen a triple crown winner since the 70s and thats why we see good horses like barbaro and eight bells get killed i m npot saying that was the cause of them getting killed but that may have been part of the problem and i have been noticing the field have been getting weaker and weaker by the year and i think this year especially

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

jequine — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:02:11 GMT

The lack of horsemanship is astounding! If you are not able to watch a horse gallop and tell if the stride looks like what you would want in a race horse, well maybe you should try something else. The blazing fast furlong is not a race or even the length of a race. The horse has to be able to continue to go further.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Cheryl, Newmarket, UK — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:33:41 GMT

I just wanted to point out that, at the Breeze Ups in Europe, they do not officially time the workouts for the sales entries, though individual buyers may time the horses themselves.

There is much less emphasis on speed here in Europe and, from what I understand, the consignors here are very anti the idea of introducing official work out times.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Jennifer — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:00:59 GMT

You are absolutely right. What is even more disturbing is the industry (ie.the sales companies and so called professionals that are there to monitor the welfare of racehorses) even allow that much pressure on the limbs of such young horses. We were always taught that a young horse should not be asked to go working speeds until their knees are closed. What 2 yr olds in these sales (in Feb.) have closed knees? At the very least, why is this not made a requirement by the sales company. If your racehorse's knees are not at least a B or an A, then you cannot work, only gallop. The buyer would likely appreciate the asset (racehorse) not be ruined physically, let alone mentally.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

KatintheHat — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 02:27:18 GMT

Just off the top of my head, I'd like a lot more info surrounding that study. LIke WHO buys horses that don't start at 2, and why didn't they start, how are they managed (stalled?), etc. There may be a bias that has nothing (or only partially) to do with horses racing at 2.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

doc79 — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 02:12:40 GMT

it's practices like this that cause a 6 figure yearling to show up in a maiden claimer claimer for 40 grand! and as for the green monkey, what a fraud of a pedigree. other than discreet cat, who flamed out as a three yr old,what has he done as sire. green monkey sold for that outrageous price based off of that work and the fact that discreet cat was thought to be a star in the making-not! those 2 things(especially that 1 furlong "blowout" concealed the truth. and despite what they say he wasn't retired because of injury. he was retired because his resume looks better as 4 race maiden than it would as a maiden claimer. breeders should be beware!

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Kateinabox — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 02:05:48 GMT

I saw a 2 1/8 mile GIII race here in Japan this past weekend. We need more big money stamina races. Get this focus off of speed. A sub 10 sec furlong is great... but if the horse can't go the next 8 furlongs what is the point?

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

3lake — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:32:04 GMT

When will this end?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this format does not work and cannot continue to exist.

It would be refreshing to hear that a sales company voluntarily changes its format to end this practice and its abuses on both the horses and the unwitting buyers. End users/trainers get real.

Clearly buyers of two year olds have lost confidence in many consignors and their used up product. Along with the global eco meltdown, two year old sales and their practices are causing a major market upheaval.

Why not do the right thing in the first place and protect the industry as a whole.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

CRob87 — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:19:24 GMT

Maybe someone (Scot...hint hint), could do a study to find out what kind of success, or lack of, "All" of the under 10.0 sales grads of the past, have had in their careers at the Track ???

A where are they now and what did they achieve kind of thing.

Maybe a study like that can prove just how good or bad it is to attempt ??? And or whether it's worth the higher purchase price.

Something along those lines anyways.

Scot's reply: Thanks, CRob. I would actually approach it a bit differently. I'd group all 2-year-olds that worked one or two or three furlongs, regardless of whether they hit a fraction over or under the bullet standards. I would compare this group to two other groups of 2-year-olds: those that were galloped or truly breezed ("breeze-up" vs. "work" is probably a whole new discussion...), and those that went on to a 2YO campaign without having gone through early pre-sale training. Don't forget that the "slow" hips that run 10-3/5 or 11-0 are still *trained* the same as the sub-10 horses, and might themselves turn in a sub-10 work under slightly different conditions.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

voice of reason — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:04:17 GMT

I've read that the fastest working horses from the two-year-old sales earn more money and stay sounder. I've been to most two-year-old sales in the last six years, and attribute this year's times to a very fast racetrack. They've changed the rules about stick use, and sitting in the bleachers for this year's event, I was struck by the lack of stick work. Almost without exception, horses were not being hit at all, but were running full speed because they're generous and compliant creatures of habit. Breeze shows may not be the ideal method for sorting out talent levels in young horses, but what I've read above doesn't jibe with what I saw on breeze day. Incidentally, Stardom Bound didn't work 10 1/5 at Barretts. She worked in 33 and 3/5 at OBS on a track that was probably a couple of ticks slower than this year's.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Justine — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:16:21 GMT

I hate the idea of pushing these horses to run so fast when so many of them are not even literally two years old yet. I'm all for racing two year olds in the second half of the year; let them continue growing the first half.

re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

da3hoss — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:40:38 GMT

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re: Rant #2 -- Sub-10 Second Works at 2-Year-Old In Training Sales

Kiyoko — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:56:29 GMT

Three words. The Green Monkey. Ran a blistering pace under 10 seconds, only to be a dud at the track before injuring himself bad enough that he had to be retired. If these buyers want insane speed fractions over short distances, they should start looking at Quarter Horses, not Thoroughbreds.