Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Tracy Meyer — Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:53:10 GMT

Would it be a mistake to breed a Not For Love mare who is out of a Kris S mare to a Stallion who is by Gone West who is also out of a Kris S mare?

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Joltman — Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:36:51 GMT

Am curious how that Request for Parole breeding. Was there a foal? RFP did not stick around long and I suspect that line does not have much of a future.

Scot's reply: Thanks for your comment, Joitman. Disappointment on both accounts--my mare slipped and Request for Parole moved full-time to Argentina, making it impossible for me to try again the next year. You're right about the future prospects for Judge T C's branch of In Reality: not good. Of course, countless sire lines have fizzled and faded throughout Thoroughbred history--while others are continued by seemingly unpredicable conduits.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

pony_boy — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:08:07 GMT

why does the best racehorse of recent yrs - sea the stars - have no inbreeding?

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The Five-Cross Files — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:20:49 GMT

The Stallion Register Online boasts some new features that every Thoroughbred breeder and pedigree enthusiast will want to know about.

Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:46:26 GMT

An offering at the upcoming Keeneland yearling sale is inbred to the dam of A.P. Indy, which inspires a quick look at the Rasmussen Factor pattern of Thoroughbred inbreeding.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

vineyridge — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:54:06 GMT

I do a lot of pedigree looking at for sporthorses. One of the interesting things I think I have discovered is that TBs are stronger, better performers, and better producers if they have all of the three foundation sire lines within 5 generations (or 5+1 on top for dams).

In the sporthorse world, both Matchem and Herod are well known sources of the highly heritable "jump". Since that's the case, I look for them close.

Am I imagining that this pattern might exist for racing TBs also?

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Redbean — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 05:14:45 GMT

Scot - Best of luck with Salambria. She was one of the mares I was considering at the LA bred sale a year and half ago. Interesting pedigree.

Scot's reply: Thanks! Small world....

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

BEM — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 01:29:16 GMT

Hi Scott loved your summary- thanks wasn't aware of the "S" and "s" type destinction.

In my patrt of the world we denote duplication by the sex of the duplicated horse's foal and from the top of the pedigree down with an "x" representing the change from sire to dam - so Salambria is inbred Intentianally 4m x 4f

and Aspidistra 5m,4f x 4f

and both inbreeding is said to be "sex balanced" ( at least 1 male of one side and one female on the other side of the pedigree) which I like to achieve.

Interestingly enough I have a mare with Intentially and Something Royal (through Sir Gaylord) which I have been duplicating - in the last 2 matings.

Best of Luck with your 2010 foal I look forward to your next article.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Archer — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:29:17 GMT

In the old "Thoroughbred Record" days Nasrullah and Royal Charger were described as "3/4 brothers in blood".

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Michael D — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:41:06 GMT

Enjoyed this article, at some point would you write about hybrid vigor and how the crossing of unrelated inbred lines could influence TB breeding. Thanks

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

sceptre — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 03:32:59 GMT

Sorry, I didn't complete my posting. The point I was attempting to make was that by definition a Rasmussen Factor must take place within 4 or 5 generations. The examples I offered would today most likely fall beyond that point. But multiple duplications of any individual RF could carry the same genetic significance as if it appeared within the first 4 or 5 generations. Ex.- a 6(s)x6(d)x6(s)x6(d) Selene would essentially equal a 5(s)x5(d) Selene.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

sceptre — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 03:22:59 GMT

Many, many pedigrees are loaded with multiple Rasmussen Factors. It's merely about how far back you choose to go. Consider, as examples- Selene-dam of Hyperion, Pharamond II, Sickle, Hunter's Moon, All Moonshine (dam of Mossborough); Scappa Flow-dam of Fairway and Pharos; Lavendula-dam of Ambiorix, Source Sucree (dam of *Turn-To), Perfume (dam of *My Babu); Mumtaz Mahal-dam of, granddam of, etc.-*Nasrullah, *Mahmoud, Royal Charger, etc.; Lady Juror-dam of Fair Trial and Sansonnet (dam of *Turn-To); and then consider that Lady Josephine was dam of both Lady Juror and Mumtaz Mahal---just as some examples, and you'll see how easily pedigrees can possess multiple (2,3,4,5, etc.) Rasmussen Factors.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Laura R — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:29:43 GMT

Karen,

After Mafaaz won, I had an interesting discussion with Lauren Stich regarding Mafaaz'a pedigree and this is what she had to say regarding the RF:

"Northern Dancer only counts as once, but he is inbred to Natalma three times -- Raise the Standard, ND and Spring Adieu.

However, that's not a double or triple RF, which is extremely rare. That occurs ONLY when a horse is inbred to TWO (or three) different mares. I've seen it when

Euros, especially, have this, say through Lalun (dam of Never Bend and Bold Reason) and Natalma (ND and his half-sisters) or Special. That combo of inbreeding is more commonplace in Europe because of the abundance of Sadler's Wells crossed with Kingmambo, etc."

Figuring out the RF concepts can be confusing. I know that when I first started studying pedigree theories the RF took me a while to figure out and I'm always learning something new.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

For Big Red — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:32:47 GMT

TO SCOT: Thanks for your reply about 3/4 siblings. Taking the 3/4 and full sibling question slightly further, do you know if the Thoroughbred genome been fully mapped? If yes, are breeders starting to use genetic/DNA information in their mating considerations?

Request for Parole's coat color got me thinking about genetics. RFP, his sire and grandsire are all blacks, a comparatively rare color in Thoroughbreds. Yet it's been passed down from the horribly named Judge Smells to his son and grandson. I don't know what that means, if anything, but it's intriguing.

Also, I note that, although RFP is a tail-male descendant of In Reality, he's a complete outcross. Salambria has the multiple crosses of Intentionally (also a black), Aspidistra, and Rough n'Tumble which "reinforce" RFP's sire line. RFP, on the other hand, "reinforces" Salambria's tail-female line. (Using colloquialisms here.) Then the stallion and mare together add inbreeding to Secretariat to their potential foal's extremely interesting pedigree. Back to genetics, there's a lot of superior genes kicking around in that "stew." I hope the foal turns out to be something special. (Might have a slightly better than 50-50 chance of being a black.)

So grateful you shared your choice of Salambria's mating with us. Thank you.

Scot's reply: Thanks for the nice comments. I have a barn full of horses that all conform roughly to the description "bay with a star." Would love to have a dark brown/black foal from this breeding, if only to be able to distinguish the foals from a distance! I was disappointed when Judge TC was sold overseas, but thrilled when Request for Parole filled the sire-line gap! ... As for the role of genetics in Thoroughbred breeding, I'm afraid the truth is our industry is way behind the times and in no apparent hurry to catch up. Here's a good story (on a related topic) that's worth a read: Why Was the Racehorse Eclipse So Good?

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

malarkeylane — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:27:32 GMT

I have noticed Big Brown inbreeding 3sx3d to Northern Dancer, and can not help wonder if this was to close. I am a fan of 4sx4d to sires such as Northern Dancer, and Mr Prospetor, but would be cautious of inbreeding to Storm Bird or Storm Cat.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Porfi — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:49:58 GMT

I am looking at Seattle Slew's linebreeding stats and it says '8 generation coefficient of inbreeding 1.920%. What does that mean?

Scot's reply: The COI measures the descent of genes through generations. The short answer is that most Thoroughbreds have a COI between 1.5 and 3.0%. A COI higher than 7.5% indicates an established pattern of inbreeding and is an undeniably significant influence on the horse possessing such a pedigree. Wikipedia offers a simplistic review of the coefficient of relationship (not specific to Thoroughbreds). The Highflyer Thoroughbred Racehorse site has an excellent overview of the established (Wright) COI calculation in Thoroughbred breeding as well as a detailed review of the newer Hardiman calculation -- see the Coefficient of Inbreeding page.

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Karen — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 05:29:17 GMT

So Mafaaz is a 4-way Rasmussen Factor? How unusual is it? When I first looked at his pedigree, I thought I had never seen that before! Has anyone done a study on racing/breeding success of 3- or 4-way Rasmussen Factor horses?

Scot's reply: Great example! I'm going to try to dig up some data on "multiple RF" before I discuss the topic... if anyone out there has anything to share, please do so!

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

4 certain — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:54:40 GMT

Scott, Would it be possible to list a source (book) that gives a good review of RF. I have several pedigree books but none cover the topic. I am in the process of getting my 1st broodmare and all of this is very helpful

Scot's reply: Actually, how about two!

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

sceptre — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:47:38 GMT

Hi Scot,

Neglected to add that I really enjoy your blog. You deserve a lot of credit, as your topics and later posts can prove quite helpful especially to those rather new to thoroughbred pedigrees. I hope The BloodHorse appreciates your efforts.

As far as our previous posts- I was certainly aware of what is proper pedigree notation, but felt that some of your explanation may be a bit ambiguous to those less informed. I ackowledge your point that it is "accepted" and "consistent", but would argue that it is not logically consistent (note my Secretariat/Bold Ruler inbreeding example). The rationale likely for our accepted notation is a desire not to appear superfluous. One wonders, though, if it was also caused by the assumption that one would always know the names of the parents that immediately preceeded (Secretariat-Bold Ruler). As you realize, this is often not the case. It's also ironic that with the advent of the computer printout our previously "accepted" notation may lose some of its share (witness what you had noted as a "mistake")...Small world this thoroughbred business-Yadda Yadda was among those I was recently asked to consider for Zakocity (email me separately if you're curious).

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Laura R. — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 02:40:02 GMT

Scott,

It would be great if you could review the RF breeding theories, especially the double RF’s how to spot a double RF as opposed to both sire and dam having an RF (a few people I know have been confused by that, but Eddington is a prime example, as both his sire and dam have an RF, but he does not have a double RF). If you can find a triple RF, that would be great discussion too.

Also, it would be good to have a discussion on the Formula One and Delta Patterns.

Thanks for mentioning these interesting topics!

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Annem — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:45:27 GMT

I think I am ok on inbreeding. The one that confuses me is the Rasmussen factor - That is totally through the dam side - correct?

And the doubling up in 5 generations is through a sibling?

Very confusing.

Scot's reply: Promise I'll start a discussion on this soon! One of my favorite breeding theories -- and one reason for my mating choice for Salambria -- it yields an unusual 4-way Rasmussen Factor to Aspidistra. (Well... technically, she herself is a 3-way RF and the Request for Parole foal will also be a 3-way... more on that soon.)

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

For Big Red — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:12:12 GMT

TO SCOT: You replied, "I'm convinced that we're only starting to see the benefits of inbreeding to Secretariat..."

If Friesan Fire wins one or more of the classics, perhaps we'll see more inbreeding to Secretariat. I am enthralled by his pedigree and am delighted he's such a good racehorse.

Anyway, I have a question. In his column, Leon Rasmussen used to note 3/4 siblings in horses' pedigrees. Roberto had Royal Charger and Nasrullah 3x3 in his pedigree. Would it be correct to say that Roberto was inbred to those 3/4 brothers?

Scot's reply: Great question! Let's see... two parts. First, I think it has reached the level of general acceptance to say that a horse is "inbred to full siblings." I've seen those terms used even for, say, a horse that has Graustark and His Majesty in the fifth generation -- he would be "inbred 5 x 5 to the full brothers Graustark and His Majesty." Technically, this hypothetical horse would be line-bred 6 x 6 to both Ribot and Flower Bowl but it's easy to see why the rule would be bent in the case of full siblings. ... The second part of your question is a bit tougher. As an editor, I would tend to alter any reference to inbreeding to Royal Charger and Nasrullah, in your example. But then I also admit some bias -- the use of "3/4 sibling" does not comply with Blood-Horse style. We accept "1/2 sibling" and "full sibling" but no grey areas in between. (Instead, you'll see references to a "similarly-bred half-brother" or a "family member bred on the same sire-line cross.")

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

Bruce — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:57:32 GMT

Tell me about the power of 12 ?

I read something sometime ago about the 12th ancester being an influence on the resultant foal???

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

sceptre — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:21:33 GMT

Hi again Scot,

Note your point, but not sure your semantic "definition" of inbreeding in thoroughbreds is correct. If one followed it (your definition) to the letter the accepted notations that do appear would not. Consider those linebred (example) 4(s)x4(d)x5(s) to Bold Ruler, wherein the 4(s) and 5(s) are both through Secretariat. By your version of the "definition" this mating should show only a 3x4 Secretariat, and a 4x5 Bold Ruler.

As far as your mare's proposed mate- appears you're on the right track. She was a poor runner and has not produced well. With these type more intensive inbreeding may offer the best hope. If you haven't already, it may be worth taking a look at "Yada Yada" and her good produce by Trippi. Until Yada Yada Stem also appeared not to have inherited much of Aspidistra's +s, so there's hope for you as well, albeit faint.

Scot's reply: Thanks, Sceptre. I see where you would be confused by the inbreeding notation -- it's unique to Thoroughbred breeding as far as I can tell -- but it's consistent and accepted. (In your example with Bold Ruler, it does indeed meet the requirement of duplication through more than one progeny.) ... As for Salambria, I agree that inbreeding can possibly upgrade the class of her own lines. She was a multiple winner and ran a solid 10 times at 2 and 15 times at 3, and has several pedigree elements that I was keen on. Before I acquired her she produced a minor South American stakes winner. I actually tried to purchase Yada Yada prior to her two stakes horses (and I mentioned her here) and she was one of the reasons I thought it was worth giving Salambria a shot!

re: Inbreeding Notations in Thoroughbred Pedigrees

sceptre — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:15:51 GMT

Hi Scot,

In your reply you implied that your hypo foal would not be inbred to Bold Ruler, Somethingroyal or My Dear Girl ("Not actually inbred ancestors"-not well worded, but I think I catch your intent). Fact is, your hypo is inbred to all three, and to precisely the same degree had the duplications occurred through non-identical sources. I agree, however, that there is a distinct qualitative difference between the two cases-for ex.- an inbreeding to Bold Ruler only through Secretariat would be confined only to those Bold Ruler "genes" inherited by Secretariat-a relatiely more restricted "pool" than had the inbreeding to Bold Ruler occurred through non-identical sources.

Scot's reply: Sceptre, as you say, this mating does yield duplications of Bold Ruler, Somethingroyal, and My Dear Girl. I mentioned in my remarks, though, that this discussion was about the semantics of the Thoroughbred breeding industry rather than other uses of such terms as "inbreeding" and "line-breeding." The resulting foal in this case will be inbred to In Reality but not to My Dear Girl since "inbreeding" in Thoroughbred pedigrees requires the duplicated ancestor to come through different progeny.