7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Swale1984 — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 03:05:56 GMT

Pedigree Shelly---I totally agree that breeders should be focused on increasing stamina. But speed is what sells---and young speed sells even better. Who cares if the horse has legs that look like matchsticks?!? It only has to race a year---maybe a year and a half!

The recently departed Stage Colony was sooooo underappreciated. By Pleasant Colony out of a Stage Door Johnny mare (tell me that doesn't SCREAM stamina), and his full sister (Pleasant Stage) won the Breeder's Cup Juvenile fillies. Yet, he ended his career at Buck Pond (home of other underappreciated stallions with good pedigrees) standing for $1500.

Yet a speedball with bad feet or bad legs can stand for 6 figures and cover 100+ mares a year. *sigh* until breeders wake up and realize that speed isn't everything, we can kiss a Triple Crown goodbye!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Pedigree Shelly — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:36:45 GMT

Itruly believe that Anyone who truly loves the Thoroughbred should be a responsible breeder! If Ihad the ways and means I'd love to adopt as many as possible!!!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Pedigree Shelly — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:14:15 GMT

i wish breeders would concentrate more on on stamina than speed !!! I hope the day doesnt come that all of the Triple Crown races are not shortened because today's Thoroughbreds cant keep up!!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Tired of the witchhunt — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:04:01 GMT

Actually Karen in Indiana, I am not Mr Paragallo and have no association with him whatsoever. However, another interpretation to the reported facts of his case are that he was trying to get out of horse ownership, trusted some people he shouldn't have, expected more from his help than he should have and didn't spend the cash he was sending as wisely as he should have. This is why I asked for a workable solution to the current situation where a horse owner is stuck between a rock and a hard place when they are trying to no longer own horses that currently have little to no value. The "don't breed" argument is not realistic. I support my animals, both bred and bought, with the income from the race and sale of horses that I breed and buy. You (The group "You" not just Karen) have no right to tell me that I should not be breeding just because you don't agree with my choices because you don't have a workable solution and my choice to breed horses is providing the funds to care for the horses that I own. My opinions come from being here every day making the decisions that affect me, the people that I assist when I have extra money and the animals I am responsible for on a daily basis. You have a hypothetical approach on the majority of the issues that make me ignore your rhetoric because it is not realistic. The thing that you don't seem to acknowledge is that bad things can happen to good people. I was trying to address the situation that many good people have hit where they cannot care for their horses today due to circumstances that they can later recover from and these people need some compassion so they can feel safe asking for help rather than fear that they will be the next person blackballed and abused in the media with distorted facts that equate them to a Hitler of horses. This type of treatment makes even people that take quality care of their animals re-think keeping that old broodmare around for a couple more retirement years now that she's starting to look rough or putting the time and money into rehabbing that injured colt that will look like hell for a while during recovery and will end up a pasture ornament with a limp. It's not worth the risk to a reputation just to get the ongoing responsibility of deciding if today is the day to put the animal down. If people would try finding out why something happened and try to help fix the problem rather than finding joy in parading the sordid pseudo-facts around, more people might ask for help rather than do their damndest to make it through and hide the problem until it's too late.

So to bring this back around to the original subject, maybe Point 8 should be: "Listen to the right people." Not the loudest, or the most persistent, or the one that spouts the most politically correct buzzwords. Ask questions of people that are successful at what you want to do and then follow their advice. Don't listen to the people that talk the talk and don't walk the walk: Trainers that view owners as ATM machines rather than clients that expect to make money, pedigree analysts that haven't plied their trade privately long enough to have results to back up their suggestions, people from non-racing backgrounds that base their breeding or racing opinions on pseudo-facts or irrelevant facts, stallion owners that aren't supporting their stallion with their own mares, racehorse breeders that won't race their own foals. Find someone that is successful in the position you want to be in and then learn from them how they got there. You can always make changes once you truly understand what's going on but not listening to hard learned lessons is one of the easier ways to fail.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

s. sun — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:15:04 GMT

I agree with Whatever. I see too much of it first hand. People breed horses with no talent to horses who had little talent or were unsound (from unsound bloodlines) thinking that they might get the one in ten thousand stakes horse. There are thousands of starved and mistreated thoroughbreds in this country bred by people who don't have a clue what they are doing and won't try to educate themselves (they breed $500.00 mares to $200.00 stallions. I have two mares which I will never breed again (one has produced an allowance winner) because I don't want to add to the number of unwanted horses in this country. By the way, I have four retired horses that I raced which I chose to keep because they are my responsiblity. I think your article is a very good one.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Native Dancer — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:27:22 GMT

Thanks for this article! Super appealing to any one intending to breed only one horse, or at small or big scale.

It is well known that thoroughbred lovers are attracted more by the thrill of living the experience of breeding and running a horse ... and dreaming to be lucky enough to win the Kentucky derby! Examples like Seattle Slew, Silver Charm, Real Quiet, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Smarty Jones, Giacomo and even Big Brown, demonstrate that you do not need to be a billionare in order to acquire (or breed) a champion. Taking the last 16 Kentucky Derbys as yardstick we can infere a probability of at least 40% chance to see a champion who is not "regally bred" or belonging to a highly commercial lineage. A horse like General Quarters has just confirmed that you can even get a bargain at claiming level. Every time a Blue blooded horse loses to lesser regarded horses we remind ourselves that there is no law or infalible rule on building superior pedigrees. However, there are obvious successful patterns which are immediately substatiated by the market. Point in case, the current success of Unbridled/ Unbridled's Song and A.P. Indy lines. luckily, As pointed out in this forum we will always have the hope and chances for "equivalent" individuals to reproduce any royal pedigree ... fortunately, the opportunities in America are so ample that we can pursue any racing dream.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

hamletgrove — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:23:58 GMT

www.horsereunions.com Database where breeders can post that they will take back or assist in re-homing horses created by them, and where people can post if trying to locate a particular horse from their past, etc. This database will become better and more useful the more people use it, so to all you truly responsible breeders out there, sign on up!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Sarah — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:55:02 GMT

To da3hoss: How long have you been breeding thoroughbreds? I would guess not long, if ever. After you get some 'real world' experience, please write again about 'horse welfare' issues. Are you unaware that the sellers at major auctions such as Keeneland have absolutely no control over who buys their horses; or that the sales companies will not even release the names and addresses of the 'real' buyers? This makes watching, supervsing, or even finding these sales horses impossible if they never race -- and sometimes even if the do -- I could go on about irresponsible owners who have been asked to return the horses to the breeders if unwanted but totally ignore this request, etc.

Please find your way into reality -- thoroughbreds are NOT K-9's!!!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Karen in Indiana — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:19:19 GMT

That rant by Tired of the witchhunt sounds a lot like what I would imagine Mr. Paragallo would say. 177 horses, some of them with foals. You say you have the right to be left alone so you can do what you've always done and that sometimes financially rough times can make it difficult. Did you contact the humane society or animal control or anyone for help? Or did you quit visiting the ranch so it could be out of sight and out of mind? I'm sure everyone on this site has had to deal with something difficult in life, but some problems don't just 'go away' if you ignore them long enough. Unless you quit feeding them properly and they all just die. You don't have the right to say 'these are my horses and I'll starve them to death if I want to'. From what's been reported, the conditions remind me of concentration camps. Those animals depend on us to care for them and if we don't do it, what are they supposed to do? If a person runs into trouble and can't care for their animals the way they should be cared for, the answer is NOT to breed more hoping they hit the jackpot with one of them. That's what gambling addicts would do. And if that's your problem, you shouldn't be allowed to own, race, breed or touch any horse ever again. If you get a horse and it turns out the horse is a nut, there will be someone out there who likes nuts. I have a part pit bull that 99.9% would have already put down, but I've spent a lot of time and energy socializing her and I wouldn't trade her for anything. I also don't totally trust her and I keep that in mind. The point being: there are alternatives, you might have to eat your pride and ask fior help, there is no excuse for malnutrition to the point of starvation, lice, worms, broken fences. If the horse rescues are full, go public. ASK FOR HELP!

Scot, I'm sorry and I'll understand if you don't want to post this, but what this person has said can't go unanswered.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

sceptre — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:14:34 GMT

Full-siblings, on average, possess slightly less than 50% identical genes. Note, though, that I said "on average". There can be great variability from one sibling pair to another... His Majesty was not considered as a more distance influence than Graustark. It is a bit to the contrary, as (for example) His Majesty is classified as a "C" (classic) chef, whereas Graustark is classified a "C-S (stout)" chef. That said, while many consider His Majesty to be the better sire of the pair, I feel it was Graustark. Graustark was also much more than just a "filly sire"... Lastly, to Scot: The fact that the breed was derived through inbreeding practices does not, in itself, lend support to the notion that this practice should be maintained today.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Tired of the witchhunt — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:58:09 GMT

I am so tired of the current fad/witchhunt of the animal rights movement. If a breeder is rolling in dough and breeds good horses and sells out due to health issues, you are expecting them to take on the care of every animal they ever bred and then ready to rip them to pieces if each one doesn't get individual daily attention and is in survivable but less than ideal condition. The best of matings can produce a dud and two duds can produce a millionaire. Nobody can know the future. If I sell an ex-racehorse to an auction that I bought as a riding horse and it didn't work out because either it was a nut or I didn't know what I was getting into and thought I could love it into being a schoolhorse, I am not responsible? Instead I get a free pass for being an idiot and all the blame goes to somebody that hasn't seen the horse in years and doesn't even own a farm anymore? This is what is so ridiculous. Everybody is on the hunt to "out" the evil animal abusers without any regard to the facts of situations. Some owners pay people to take care of their animals, either at boarding farms or their own farms, not all managers are honest. Some owners run out of money due to the economic situation and hope that since the horses aren't worth anything in this current market that they can scrape by long enough to get through and pick back up so they don't go straight to the killers. But if you've got a bad-tempered horse that's not rideable and not good breedingstock, what are a person's choices today? Most horse rescues are full, expect you to pay them to take the horse or don't have the money to care for the horse. If you give it away or sell it cheap you'll get barred from the tracks because it ended up at a stockyard, if you keep it when you can't afford it you'll get charged with neglect if it's below a body condition of 4, regardless of why. If you try to sell it at a higher price you get no offers or picked at that you are an idiot for asking so much. If you euthanize it you can no longer get the carcass picked up but it's illegal to do anything but bury it, even if it would take dynamite to get a deep enough hole to be legal. Exactly what in the hell is a down on their luck horse person to do? I say this witchhunt for "abusers" should end and some compassion should begin of people putting their dollars behind their words. Not one horse at a time but one auction at a time, every single horse gets bought up, every single day of every single auction. And then, that day, the "rescuers" have to find a place for each of those horses to stand and get the necessary feed and hay shipped in and get the necessary vet work done immediately with no excuses accepted for any delays. Once those people have found a way to make this situation work, then they can start telling me what I can and can't breed. Until then I will have the right to try to breed and raise horses that can pay for themselves and their failed siblings and keep my head above water financially so that I can do what I have been doing for years, trying to take care of my affairs and help those around me when I can.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

swale1984 — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:37:37 GMT

Devils Advocate--good point; that comment in Scot's original post bothered me when I read it, but I didn't know how to put it without sounding arrogant. I'm a bigger fan of the stocky stallions who tend to produce horses with stamina (think those lovely Roberto line stallions like Dynaformer!) than those spindly-legged Mr. Prospector descendants like Unbridled's Song.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

ROBERT — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:52:35 GMT

For Big Red......You are correct in that even full siblings are different, but they do have the same gene pool with which their physical attributes come from. The sire and dam's genes don't change....for the most part. I am not taking into account radiation or other natural disasters. Just generally speaking. Remember Secretariat has a full sister who could not run a lick, yet he is world famous. I would still want "The Bride's" bloodlines because of the family. Tizbud and Tiznow look alot alike and they have pretty much the same temperment and running style. I would love to have a mare in foal to Tizbud, but only because Tiznow is out of range. Another example would be Graustark and His Majesty. Graustark, while a chestnut, sired better fillies than colts and they had speed and could go long. His Majesty is a good sire of both fillies and colts but for the most part, they were distance horses. My point being this: everytime you breed a mare, your opportunities for a different foal are limitless. One final point.....My thanks to Scot for starting this blog converstaion. I have learned alot from everyone's posting. Keep them coming :)

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Devils Advocate — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:41:58 GMT

Regarding inbreeding creating the American Thoroughbred. Taking a strain of endurance horses (i.e. horses that can race long distances day after day), and creating a breed that can't race one mile more often than every two or three weeks may be an achievement, but is it one to be proud of? Outcrossing, and thus hybrid vigor, need to have its place as well.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Swale1984 — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 02:53:40 GMT

To answer cgriff's question--how about Smart Strike taking his sire's place?

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Novanora — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:20:25 GMT

Regarding "noncommercial" pedigrees, there's a two-word answer: Seattle Slew. Who would have thought that a $17,000 yearling purchase would ever be "commercial," much less start a dynasty?

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

sceptre — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:56:10 GMT

To Karin C-C:

The Buckpasser-Bold Ruler cross was never "touted" as the next-coming of anything. Its relative frequency was due to the fact that the Phipps family (bred and raced Buckpasser) had many Bold Ruler mares ;the family (mother) also bred and raced Bold Ruler. Since many of their Bold Ruler mares reasonably outcrossed with Buckpasser they pursued this avenue for a while. This cross yielded poor results, but not because both Buckpasser and Bold Ruler were "bad-kneed". Rather, Buckpasser (as was his sire, Tom Fool) was a bit back at the knee, and Bold Ruler tended to sire heavy-shouldered horses. It was later presumed that the blending of overly heavy front end with imperfect knee conformation caused a greater degree of unsoundness with this cross. Allow me to hasten to add that, other than his knees, Buckpasser was the most perfect, magnificent, breathtaking specimen I have ever seen-not to mention the greatest racehorse of my lifetime. A supreme credit to the breed, his bloodlines should be cherished and kept "alive".

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

sceptre — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:50:18 GMT

To Karin C-C:

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Dreamer's Mom — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:28:10 GMT

Karen In Indiana-the only issue with the Slew-line is a propensity to have knee issues. I know this because we have this pedigree and we are extremely careful with our 2yr olds. Chips a'plenty if you push them. Seems to be a non-issue as they get older. Disposition-wise, bring them on! You would be hard-pressed to find nicer horses to be around. Ours are kind to the bone and tons of fun to be around. And boy do they try hard!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

For Big Red — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:49:32 GMT

TO ROBERT: You wrote, "Tizbud has the same breeding and physical attributes."

Well, not quite. I'm no genetic scientist, but even I know that full siblings do not inherit identical genes from their parents. While full siblings will have the same pedigree, they are likely to can carry and pass on very different genes.

The study of Thoroughbred genetics is still in its infancy. I learned from the Thoroughbred Heritage website that the Department of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland, conducted ground-breaking mitochondrial DNA research into Thoroughbred female lines. They uncovered pedigree errors in the General Stud Book related to how the different female families are categorized.

While I find these results interesting, I'm more eager for future genetic studies to map the Thoroughbred genome, and to identify equine genetic diseases and heritable defects.

To provide one practical example of how this kind of research could potentially help breeders make better decisions, I'll use the case of Reviewer (Bold Ruler x Broadway, by Hasty Road). Although a well-bred stakes winner, he was a fragile colt who suffered cannon bone fractures at least twice during his racing career. Reviewer was euthanized in 1977 after further damaging a fractured leg when he thrashed coming out of anesthesia for a cast change. He fractured the leg in a paddock accident a few weeks earlier.

Despite his multiple fractures, Reviewer went to stud, where he sired the now-legendary, but tragic Ruffian. She, as we all know, fractured two sesamoids during a match race with Foolish Pleasure. Ruffian also had to be euthanized when she thrashed coming out of anesthesia after surgery.

Would genomic research have revealed that Reviewer carried a genetic predisposition to fragile bones? We'll never know. But maybe such research could lead to breeding sounder horses in the future. In the meantime, until such data is readily available, I'm grateful to Scot for widely sharing his knowledge of responsible breeding practices, and to Blood-Horse for providing this forum.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

audrey — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:43:20 GMT

Great advice. I bred whatever I could get in Uruguay in the early nineties (we won the statistics in racing for a couple of years - La Felicidad) - and imported a couple of USA broodmares, a son of Raise a Native, and various Argentine racers. Didn't make money in those days but sure loved to death walking in the pastures to mentor my broodmares and their babies. Now I'm back. A ton has happened in Uruguay. High class pedigrees abound from Argentina and Brazil and USA. Major investors have re-invented Marones. I'm starting small with a couple of two year olds to be trained that are by one of my old speed race horses - who has become one of the leading breeding stallions in Uruguay. What a thrill. And saludas to San Miguel QueGuay.

Question - a good broodmare with decent pedigree who may or may not have run: what is the probable percentage of her foals that could be winners? When I go to "remates" at various Haras, I realize that out of 40 to 50 being peddled, probably 5 or 6 will be at least winner of one or two, if that many and maybe one a star. Yet we still get excited to come up with that star.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

sceptre — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:32:38 GMT

Dear da3hoss,

I share your conviction that the lifetime well-being of the horse (I'd extend this to nearly all living creatures) should be assured. Your proposal to that end is, unfortunately, unworkable. We need to be extremely creative about this in order to effect meaningful change.

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

da3hoss — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:30:31 GMT

Sarah, the breeder owns part of a lifetime obligation because he brought a LIVING entity, not just a piece of metal, into the world and holds a moral obligation to that living entity to ensure they sell it to a decent owner and to help ensure a decent life and a compassionate end to that life...it's like Ghandi said (I have to paraphrase) "You can tell the soul of a nation by how it treats its animals.

I have bred working K-9's since 1986...every puppy or dog that has left here has a lifetime guarantee that they can come back here...I have not had to take back many dogs, but I have had them come back as old as 9, which in a German Shepherd would be the equivalent of a 20+ horse..why? because it was the right thing to do.

"Do what's right, because it's right and do it right".

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

da3hoss — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:19:48 GMT

Thanks Scott, for your comments...I care about animal welfare, but what I'm passionate about is breeding superior animals, so I'll stand by my answer about "second-tier" breeding...I guess I'm passionate 'cause in my breeding world (police, bomb, rescue K-9s) people's lives are at stake. OK off my soapbox ;-)!

PS My definition of inbreeding vs linebreeding is Genetics 101 definition, trust the Thoroughbred world to be the ones to change its definition just for them! But, then they do think fillies and mares are "ladies" ...LOL!!!

re: 7 Mistakes New Breeders Make

Sarah — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:56:49 GMT

Just one question: Why does virtually everyone place the responsiblity for the horse for a lifetime solely on the breeder? The breeder is producing a product for a market, i.e, a horse for a consumer to race, just as Ford Motor Co. produces vehicles for consumers to drive. If your 1998 F150 breaks down on the Long Island Expressway, do you call Ford Corporate Hdqtrs. to come and take care of it? Absolutely not -- legally, it is the owners responsibility to take care of the vehicle, not the manufacturer. Why is the breeder supposed to care for every horse he has bred and sold? What has happened to horse OWNER responsibility?