Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

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Mating Choices -- Bayakoa - The Five-Cross Files

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Biografo — Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:35:03 GMT

And now Bayakoa's grandson Fort Larned is the Breeders Cup Classic winner! Kurdos to the Whitham family for investing in their crack racemare's legacy in the breeding shed. Note that Fort Larned has some extra Argentinian blood through Lord at War, E Dubai's damsire.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Biografo — Sun, 05 Aug 2012 04:18:44 GMT

Well....Bayakoa is the second dam of Fort Larned who won the West Virginia Derby this afternoon, beating 2 year old champ Hansen...Pedigree experts, looks like the Mr. Prospector line fits well! After all Good Manners is by Nashua, Mr. P's damsire.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Michael D — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:07:21 GMT

Common sense and a limited knowledge of genetics would tell me to first focus on conformation and the utilization of boimechanics of Bayakoa and/or her daughters. The stallion I would look for would be a complete outcross, Gr1 winning millionaire with complementary biomechanics and significant inbreeding to a prominent sire line that has had great success with Nasrullah line mares. The crossing of two unrelated inbred lines should create hybrid vigor and with complimenting conformation we may get lucky. These articles are fun!

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Hannah — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:48:17 GMT

If I were to make a breeding recommendation for Arlucea and Trinity Place, it would be Dynaformer. As his dam is by His Majesty, your wish would be granted; the Roberto (Turn-to) line has not appeared to have failed this family either.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Karen — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:51:04 GMT

This has been a very interesting discussion. I'd like to add an observation...Affluent is by far the best of Bayakoa's daughter's foals. She is also the only one who is a complete outcross in five generations.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Marcos (Argentina) — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:34:29 GMT

LACS70: Alava had 3 mares and 3 colts. I dont know why she was never bred to a top sire. PAMPLONES (winner of 1 race at 4), ASPARREN (unplaced), ALAVES (unraced), BENABARRA (unplaced), BAJANAVARRA (winner at 5), ZUBEROA (unraced).

Breeding recors of Alava´s daughters:

BENAVARRA: 2003 filly by Señor Juez (unraced), 2005 filly by Señor Juez (unraced).

BAJANAVARRA: 2006 filly by Señor Juez, 2008 colt by Alrassaam. Both unraced yet.

ZUBEROA: 2006 colt by Not For Sale (1st try with a proven sire, Not for Sale is a sensation now in Argentina after producing Asiatic Boy, Forty Licks, etc in very short crops) and 2008 filly by Alajwad (full brother to Bernstein).

Sorry for my english. Saludos desde Argentina.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

sceptre — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:33:44 GMT

Dear Mr. Craven:

I'd suggest that our differences relate less to "definitions" and more to perspective. I didn't label Affirmed a dud, or below average, or average, but as marginally successful (for the opportunity afforded him). Again, I'd categorize similarly Gilded Time (accomplished less, but with less opportunity). It was my general observation that Bayakoa's daughters have produced admirably, when one considers the relative quality of mates offered them-addreses the relative genetic quality of Trinity Place and Arlucea and, by association, Bayakoa herself...Speaking of superlatives and perspective; Nashua was no more than a very good sire, far less elite in that regard than as a runner-common occurance. His record as a sire is not indicative of one who could be phrased as "fantastic in the breeding shed". Also, Glamour a "tremendous" racemare?... And your facts-Fleet Nasrullah sired 46 black-type winners, not "147". If you choose Pedigree Query as source, I suggest you read a bit more carefully...As to the parrott mouth issue- don't assume all parrott mouths are acquired genetically. By the way, this malady can often be remedied if addressed early.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

LACS70 — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:23:09 GMT

Terry-

I checked the pedigree of Bayakoa's dam, Arlucea. She had 2 mares - Bayakoa(ARG)in 1984 and Alava(ARG) in 1988. There was also the filly Mega Storm(USA) foaled in 1992 who broke down and died in her first race in 1994.

Alava has had three mares to date, all Argentinian bred. Unfortunately these three do not have progeny or race information provided. Maybe someone familiar with Argentina's racing/breeding culd fill us in on the breeding records for Alava's daughters.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Glenn Craven — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 05:18:00 GMT

Sceptre ... We clearly have different definitions for diminutives and superlatives.

While I understand that in certain circles Affirmed has been disparaged as a sire, he threw more than 80 stakes winners and nine champions. His daughters have already produced more than 120 stakes winners. From strictly an average-earnings standpoint, if memory serves, Affirmed's AEI was over 2.4, or more than double the breed average. ... "Marginally successful?"

I have a hard time calling Gilded Time a "marginal" sire, as well. He's thrown some nice stakes horses and a few G1 winners. "Average," maybe. "Marginal" seems harsh.

I can agree that Quiet American was a "spotty" sire, though aren't most? As someone who saw Patriot's Pass in the flesh, as I did not, I'll have to take your word that he was "very gifted," because 2-for-10 with no blacktype isn't the typical mark of such a horse.

As for him as a sire, if he had parrot mouth, I'd have never stood him. I consider it a serious flaw, not only as the horse ages (because the discrepancy between upper and lower jaws only increases with time) but even in the younger horse. Depending how pronounced it is, parrot mouth (I'm sure most of us are aware) can contribute to eating difficulties and can keep a horse from getting the full benefit of his feed, limiting his health and athletic ability. I would not perpetuate that by standing a stallion who might pass a considerable conformational flaw along to dozens of offspring per year.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Terry — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:30:27 GMT

Hmmm... seems like this great mare had some genetic issues. The poor breeding record for herself and her fillies (such as aborting or not conceiving) plus that inherited parrot mouth would be reasons that I would choose not to continue with her line, assuming I was lucky enough to be a breeder and to own a great mare like her.

A great individual is not necessarily great breeding stock. Did Bayakoa, by any chance, have a sister whose daughters might be a better choice genetically? Often a less accomplished sibling proves to be better at passing on the qualities you want and avoiding those you don't.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

sceptre — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:51:00 GMT

Firstly, allow me to correct an error in my post. Sunset Place daughter of Trinity Place, is by the marginally successful stallion Gilded Time (not Timeless Moment)...To respond to Scot's query- Temperament does factor in my matings. I much prefer those who are intelligent and well-dispositioned. Good temperaments are, by and large, a benefit to the racehorse, and can impact greatly their future careers, whether as breeding stock or otherwise. Parrott mouth usually does not effect racing peformance, but can be detrimental to their overall health in later years. I do tend to breed for a look aesthetically pleasing to me irregardless of whether it leads to function following form... As to marc's comment: Many great racehorses (female or male) didn't "sooner or later" express greatness (or quality) in subsequent generations. Bayakoa, however, should not be considered as among those. Many exceptional phenotypes (performers) with questionable "pedigrees" have failed as breeding stock, while many others of like description have succeeded. Often not easy to predict this in advance. A worthy topic for exploration.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Fernando Resuche — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:43:59 GMT

Bayakoa fue una extraordinaria yegua de carrera,su base pertenece al gran haras Argentino "OJO DE AGUA" seguramente su decendencia tendra algun campeon.

Scot's reply: I'd have an easier time if a reader commented in French -- and if she's in her 20s or early 30s and single, I'm available! I do love French accents. But I digress. Here's a translation the best I can figure it: <<<Bayakoa was an extraordinary racemare from the great Argentine farm "Ojo de Agua" and surely from her descendents there will be a champion.>>> Senor Resuche, I hope you're right. Maybe we'll see Izarra produce the greatest family 9-g runner since Sir Barton!

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

sceptre — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:49:52 GMT

Bayakoa; great topic for focus. From a pedigree standpoint, very difficult to discern the potential cause(s) for her greatness, but she was indeed great. So, one might say that she received a particularly fortuitous turn of the genetic wheel-inherited a far greater proportion of the better genetic material available to her from her sire and dam. Was much of this received in homozygous form (would have had no impact on her racing perormance), and/or were some of these alleles very positive "rare" types (would have impacted on her performance); hard to know. Contrary to what some believe, I feel that the produce records of her two producing daughters are exceptional. Her daughter, Trinity Place has produced the top filly, Affluent by the marginally successful Affirmed; the gifted runner Sunset Place by another only marginally successful sire (Timeless Moment); and the very gifted Patriot's Pass by Quiet American (spotty sire). I followed (and watched) Patriot's Passes' career closely-he was the real deal, but had his career compromised by injury. I considered him to be an excellent stallion prospect for one who breeds to race, but failed to convince my clients to take a chance with him...Arlucea has already produced the highly talented Distorted Humor filly Izarra. I did notice a work on her as recently as last month. I maintain a top ten list of future desirable broodmare prospects, and she is among my top five. Arlucea's other mates have been rather questionable choices-Cape Canaveral, Storm Creek, Afleet Alex-she seems to deserve far better, but I am reluctant to question either her excellent (and highly successful) breeder(s), or her equally excellent and well-qualified caretaker (farm at which they reside)... I find the identification (pedigree-wise) of proper mates for these two mares a very, very difficult task. Bayakoa is probably the one to key on, but it's very difficult to get a handle on how to use her lineage (see above, on what may have caused her racing and, perhaps, production greatness). Yes, it's easier to focus on Strawberry Road (Trininty Place's sire), or Broad Brush (Arlucea's sire), but such methodology may well miss the mark. Matings for both mares would require countless hours of analysis, and might yield nothing definitive. My gut tells me that Seeking The Gold would have been a good fit or Trinity Place, and that, today, Petionville would be one to strongly consider. But, here again, this is based more on Whiskey Road, and my regard for Petionville. For Arlucea, it appears that Hoist The Flag-Tom Rolfe; Hail To Reason-*Turn-To; and *Nasrullah-Nearco might be directions to pursue...I'd love to be offered the assignment; these mares are worthy of the time needed to do this properly.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

For Big Red — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:01:02 GMT

Thanks for your reply, Scot. Do Thoroughbred breeders care about such inherited traits as over- or underbites? How about temperament, which is also at least partially an inherited trait? Or are mating decisions made strictly with a view toward performance?

Scot's reply: Interesting question. From my experience, as long as a physical abnormality does not detract from a horse's performance it is pretty much ignored by racehorse breeders. That's led to *some* of the problems we've seen in areas from reproduction and foaling to quarter cracks and weak hoofs. On the behavior issue, I suspect that there are some breeders who believe irascible temperaments are a mark of class or vigor and they actually breed for it. (We discussed a similar topic a while back.) ... I'd be interested to hear from others whether they take non-running physical attirbutes into account when planning matings. Anyone?

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

will — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:52:46 GMT

In followup of Da3Hoss' comment, can someone please discuss how these foaling complications can be reduced? There seem to be far too many. Thank you.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

For Big Red — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:33:12 GMT

Scot, I am a huge fan of Bayakoa, having seen her run many times. She a marked overbite. Do you know if she passed that trait on to any of her offspring?

Scot's reply: I'm afraid I cannot confirm or deny conclusively -- I've never seen her daughters -- but I have heard that. Actually, more specifically, I've head that all her offspring got her parrotmouth.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

The Rock — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:03:53 GMT

What's the deal with Izarra anyways? Is she still in training or Retired?

Scot's reply: Last race came 17 months ago, I'd assume "retired." Trainer Ron McAnally said after her last race that she'd come out sound, and later in the year she was in the 2008 Oaks discussion, but no word since. She has a profile page on BloodHorse.com that you can check for older stories -- she hasn't made the news recently.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

Glenn Craven — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:05:50 GMT

An interesting read, but I'm not sure there's all that much promise in the offspring of the four foals from Bayakoa.

De Sarmiento is dead, so we'll never see what he might have done over several crops and his influence as a sire will be sorely limited by a list of just 26 foals.

Morocha produced no offspring.

Arlucea has three winners, including a multiple G1-placing filly. But she ran four times at 2, once at 3 and apparently unraveled. Maybe Moonport (three wins in six starts) will acquit himself well, and maybe she'll produce more in the coming years; she's only 12.

But unraced Trinity Place is now 17 and doesn't have much time in production remaining. (Provided she's alive and in breeding shape, which I suppose I don't know.) She's had an unfortunate record of complications -- slipped her first foal in 1997, barren in 2003 and 2005, dead foals in 2004 and 2006. Perhaps Bazine (2007, by Malibu Moon) will perform, though an unraced mare and a two-race sire isn't exactly a recipe for soundness, or perhaps her 2008 colt by Pulpit will be a star. Odds are leaning against it.

I actually rather like the mating of Seattle Slew to Bayakoa, resulting in the five strains of Nasrullah in the fifth generation of De Sarmiento. I'm a proponent of Bold Ruler inbreeding, and the other three lines were from impeccable sources:

-- Reine de course Glamour a tremendous racemare and dam of multiple-blacktype including G1 winner Boucher and solid sire Poker, plus her first three dams all were reines, including third dam La Troienne.

-- Splendid racer and record-setter Fleet Nasrullah, who sired 147 blacktype winners.

-- And, champion 2-year-old, 3-year-old and horse of the year Nashua, also fantastic in the breeding shed.

If you're going to inbreed, do so to the best possible stock. A Nasrullah inbreeding doesn't get better than two doses of Bold Ruler, plus Glamour, Fleet Nasrullah and Nashua. ... I don't know why De Sarmiento only raced once, but I wouldn't attribute it to inbreeding (not that you did). And 5x5x5x5x5 doesn't particularly give me "pause." Were it 6x6x6x6x6 it would be a very tasteful linebreeding. Had the colt won the Derby we'd call it genius.

So from here, it still looks like Bayakoa's breeding career is disappointing. Certainly Affluent was fantastic on the track and perhaps she'll reproduce herself better than her granddam did.

But from an unfortunate number of only four foals, Bayakoa's only son is already dead, one of her three daughters has no offspring, and another has lost as many seasons as she's produced.

Nature's cruel way of reminding us, perhaps, that try as we might as breeders, she doesn't do our bidding.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

marc — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:20:36 GMT

great racing mares sooner or later will show their genes at work

that`s why we should not ignore or dismiss 3rd or 4th dams when looking at a padigree and give value only to the 1st and 2nd dam as is rhe case in most sales.

re: Mating Choices -- Bayakoa

da3hoss — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:31:39 GMT

yeah, she died of "foaling complications", like Happy Ticket, but don't get me going...hope I never read about RTR or RA, etc. at 8, 13 (Chilukki) or 20's like Lady's Secret, Weekend Surprise...

Bayakoa didn't need to "dazzle" in any breeding shed..she already dazzled us...guess she gave her life for racing.