Northern Dancer Pensioned

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Amanda — Tue, 08 Feb 2011 03:45:42 GMT

Northern Dancers bloodlines make the thoroughbred great, Raise A Native is a very unsound bloodline to have in preidgrees it is along with Mr. Prospector and native dancer, the most unsound lines in the thoroughbred today, the only thing northern dancer had during his career lameness wise was a quarter crack and a pulled tendon, look at Eightbelles, Ruffian, George washington, barbaro, pine island, who all heartbreakingly broke down.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Claudette — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:32:42 GMT

While I loved both ND and SC I believe there are other truely great ones out there. Tiznow comes to mind. He has neither Northern Dancer or Storm Cat in his lineage. I hope this great racehorse will be the next to found a dynasty. He retired sound and he is getting better and better as he gets better mares. Will have to wait and see but my moneys on this great horse.

Scot's reply: Just to clarify, Tiznow (SRO) has 4 x 4 inbreeding to Northern Dancer but his tail-male lineage goes back to Man o'War through In Reality.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

sgillies — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:49:35 GMT

Follow-up: For Storm Cat, his retirement from breeding Thoroughbreds doesn't mean that he's fathered his last foal: Storm Cat Back in Service -- For $20,000 -- Yes, Really.

Storm Cat Back in Service -- For $20,000 -- Yes, Really

The Five-Cross Files — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:40:56 GMT

Oh, it's true -- Storm Cat is back in stud service. There's one little detail, though, that puts a twist on things...

Broodmarathon - Broodmares IFT Storm Cat

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:54:21 GMT

The current breeding stock sales are the end of an era for one of North America's top sires. Today we'll take a quick glance at the two Keeneland November offerings of mares in foal to Storm Cat.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Kaydee — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:26:19 GMT

I was so glad to see this news! If you're looking to soundness, what about Dynaformer and some of his sons? What about Pleasant Colony line sires? I'm more than a little tired of the Raise a Native and Northern Dancer sires out there. Let's get some of the Halo line rejuvenated (Sunday Silence sons) while we're at it.

Scot's reply: Dynaformer ... Pleasant Colony ... now you're singing my tune! As for Halo... I have a David Copperfield yearling filly....

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Carolyn L Canada — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:10:24 GMT

Well first of all i was never a Saddler Wells fan. However being 11 years old and watching Dancer win the Derby loved that horse. Now gentlemen you are all quite right too inbreeding led to poor Eight Belles problems and death. How about that unsung heros's line Gallant Man? His desendants are wonderful. strong and have pizzaz. Marc W you are quite right. Poor horses who were good but outshone by the heroes of the hour. Gala Surpreme and Gala Red back in Australia were great in their day. Of course we need to treat our masterpieces better and those who are not raced need to be given good homes and treated well not ending up as dinner. Of course if Big Brown wins the triple crown on june 7th LOL here we go again!

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Marc W — Tue, 20 May 2008 20:39:12 GMT

Northern Native was Northern Dancer's full brother and he went to stud ended up in Mich., Nostrum was a half brother at stud in Maryland. Rakeen was one the best bred horses I have ever seen, sired by the Dancer with Glorious Song the mare who was a champion and blue hen as a producer, I doubt most of you have no knowledge of the above because they were flops, their lines are almost dead (Rakeem just showed up in a recent stakes winner). There is something more to it than bloodlines that makes a great horse-luck! Think John Henry.

Your chances are better when you breed to the best, but like a Presidential candidate coming from a welfare mother, breeding only takes you so far. The trainer the horse is given to, the farm that breaks him, the feed he eats all play a part in success. The racing gods determine success. A great sire with the wrong mare nick can't make it. Breed well, give it a chance, and hope for luck.

Both sires were great as was their get, but others will come given a break. I remember when Bold Ruler line was the king, things change. Breeders will find ways to dilute their influence. (Of course since breeding is nowadays more important and profitable than producing racing champions and thrilling the public it may be that racing will be dead in the US before that happens and make it a mute point. The die hard fans will be watching Austrailian, English, European and Japanese races on TVG and HRTV where people actually go to the racetrack and support the game)

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Ranagulzion — Tue, 20 May 2008 04:36:07 GMT

Canadian breeders gave the racing world Northern Dancer, Nijinsky, Vice Regent, Deputy Minister and Dance Smartly. It is time for the American breeders to start thinking "outside the box". The Descendants of Blushing Groom tend to pass on a lot of class to their offsprings. With the pensioning of Storm Cat and Sadler's Well perhaps the future could be with stallions like Cherokee Run, Congaree, Invasor, Candy Ride and Leroidesanimaux if breeders are willing to remove the Northern Dancer/ Raise a Native blinkers from their thinking.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

danziggirl — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:55:12 GMT

Okay. Big Brown looks like he is on his way the the american triple crown - his paternal grandfather was Danzig - his maternal grandfather Nureyev - both sons of Northern Dancer - it works for him

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Mariner — Sun, 18 May 2008 15:52:59 GMT

While I do like what the Northern Dancer lines have done for the industry in terms of developing today's top sires, it is time to start outcrossing a little bit more. But you cannot forget, either, that it is really Northern Dancer's sire, Nearctic, who had a huge influence over the breed - as of 2001, I believe, he was in over 75% of all thoroughbred bloodlines in North America. Not that I don't like Nearctic, who was truly a Canadian spectacle of a horse, but perhaps its time to step away from him a little bit and cross onto other sire and dam lines.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

danziggirl — Fri, 16 May 2008 21:22:41 GMT

all this talk of Northrn Dancer - his son Nijinsky was the only horse to win the English triple crown since 1938 - he also sired two other Epsom derby winners - The Minstrel and Secreto who fought it out with another Northern Dancer sired horse El Gran Senor - quite amazing - still think there can never be enough Northern Dancer blood in the world

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

angiegirl — Fri, 16 May 2008 15:14:37 GMT

The breakdowns that we regretfully witness on the track are due to the fact that these horses are raced too young. They aren't completely physicaly developed until they are 6 years old. Their bones are fragile, and too much is demanded from these young colts and fillies. Bottom line!!! Nicanor is a 2 yr. old, meanwhile he was born shortly after Barbaro was destroyed in 07.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Jen — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:26:32 GMT

Tiznow is a horse who has great success. He has soundness, and stamina, and if the breeders give him a chance he will succeed. Look how well this group of runners are doing this year, and they love synthetic, which is probably where racing is moving too. He might make a difference.

Scot's reply: Tiznow (on SRO) (pedigree) is an interesting example of Northern Dancer inbreeding (4 x 4) without either his sire or dam being tail-male.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

TizNow — Fri, 16 May 2008 01:08:54 GMT

I would love to see the Relaunch line rejuvinated. I fully respect what both these horses (SC and SW) have done for the industry. I believe one horse who will make an impact with America's Thoroughbred is Hat Trick (Sunday Silence - Tricky Code, by Lost Code). He's not from the Northern Dancer line, but he's a total outcross as he is free of ND and Mr. Prospector for that matter. Storm Cat and Sadler's Wells both earned their retirements!

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

s lee — Thu, 15 May 2008 22:14:42 GMT

Hi Marc W -

no offense taken - that's why there are so many cards on the table - nobody really knows where the next best nicks are going to be. Personally I'd like to take a good mare, maybe from a Slew mare, maybe from a European line, and go to one of the grays. The genetic pools are deep and have tricky currents - that's half the fun!

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Julie L. — Thu, 15 May 2008 20:40:12 GMT

I think the line that will return to prominence is the Bold Ruler line through sons of Seattle Slew with A.P. Indy being the most productive son as we are really already feeling A.P. Indy's influence as a sire of sires and as a broodmare sire. Tiznow could regenerate the Relaunch line who is a son of In Reality but it is still too early to tell with him. It will be interesting to see how the lines develop.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Marc W — Thu, 15 May 2008 20:39:13 GMT

Answer to S. Lee

First-Tiznow, maybe Unusal Heat (sp?) is improving almost ordinary mare he is seeing in CA, have you seen his A.E.I. comparing to the other sires???? and there are a number more like him across the country and in Canada. They are out there.

Japan and South America have high quality dirt and grass racing-Maybe Invasor will do well and some Halo lines can resurface through the good studs we sent to Japan too early-what about bringing Brian Time lines back from Japan. I thought he was only an OK horse in the US during a bad year but he did great at stud there. We import almost everything else, maybe it is time we import studs as well instead of just shipping them out (I was sad to Menifee go before he saw some good mares)

With Polytracks unfortunately coming in the turf lines in Europe that don't have the ND blood in them would be good imports-remember although many European stars were bred here there are enough with truly French, Ire, and English leanings that have done well when they come here to race.

Unfortunately and not trying to knock you, of the grays you mentioned I wouldn't send a million dollar mare to any of them. They would be fine for a mare I was taking a shot with, maybe a hard knocking mare that was claimer. Bottom line is they wouldn't sell well and everybody can takes shots and give advice when it is not your money.

Once I begged a breeder friend to buy shares in Silver Deputy off only two lifetime starts-I was right, but it is easy when I had nothing to lose. Try playing poker at the practice tables-then see how good you are when the money is on the line. See if you play as loose.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

sgillies — Thu, 15 May 2008 20:27:44 GMT

Lots of insightful comments -- thanks to all who've contributed. I'd like to hear some opinions about whether, over the next 20 years or so, we're more likely to see massive inbreeding to Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector or reintroduction of "outcross" sire lines. Thoughts, anyone? How do you think such inbreeding will impact the breed? What sire lines are likely (or even available) to return to prominence?

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Jen — Thu, 15 May 2008 20:23:59 GMT

I think a lot of people have forgotten that a lot of SC success came from the genetics of his dam. He carries the large heart gene inherited from Terlingua and came from Secretariat. He has been able to pass Secretariats large heart gene on through his dam. So his foals are carrying that Bold Ruler blood too. Storm Bird was not that great of a sire to have produced such a great one. It had to be contribution of his dam that made the difference. AP Indy also.

Scot's reply: So true! Add Gone West (on SRO) and Dehere (on SRO) and Perfect Soul (IRE) (on SRO) and Holy Roman Emperor (IRE) (pedigree) to the list of premier sires with Secretariat as a broodmare sire. Big Red has been gone almost 20 years, but we haven't seen the end of his influence.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Julie L. — Thu, 15 May 2008 20:06:11 GMT

azeri77 you mention Smart Strike and then list Sky Classic, Regal Classic, Dance Smartly, etc., when you mentioned Smart Strike as the new and upcoming stallion you made it sound as if he is from the Northern Dancer line and he is not, his sire is Mr. Prospector by Raise a Native and his bottom breeding has no Northern Dancer though his dam was crossed with Northern Dancer line stallions so if you are suggesting that Smart Strike is going to promote the Northern Dancer sire line you are way off he will promote the Raise a Native line through Mr. Prospector.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

s lee — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:29:43 GMT

Wonderful stallions all, but as originally asked, where to look for fresh "faces"? One way around the Mr. Prospector (Native Dancer) and Northern Dancer is to "go gray". Silver Charm (sadly for us now in Japan), Alphabet Soup, Skip Away, Giacomo and Cozzene are all free of these names. They share some more distant ancestors, but not for several generations. And some of these stallions proved themselves racing sound past their 3 year old years.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

Marc W — Thu, 15 May 2008 18:46:33 GMT

I saw ND ran 3 times in Canada and twice he was beaten in a 2 furlong race and on the turf. The horse that beat him at 2 furlongs was a nice horse and very fast the other only ordinary. Rambling Road (good sprinter) and Garcon d' Or I think was the second horses name to beat him in Canada who was nothing special-just that ND didn't like turf. Dancer was a great stud who sired great turfers as well as dirt.

I agree there are too many from his line and anybody with a Storm Cat colt in the last ten/fifteen years thinks they own a stud. If they weeded out the bad ones and average runners it wouldn't be so bad.

Windfields got rid of ND's full brother Northern Native and sent him to Mich. and oblivion. Nostrum was OK but nothing special in Maryland as a 1/2 brother stud to ND.

Except in a few cases (Some horses like Silver Deputy-I thought he was going to be one of the best ever- and Danzig were meant to be superstars and didn't race more than a few starts due to breakdowns) No matter how well bred the horse is-if he doesn't race well the foals don't as well. By sending so many non-preforming well bred horses to stud the lines have been diminished and expanded them too much. YES, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. Viceregal from ND's first crop I still say is the best horse I ever saw run regularly in person (Dr. Fager would be my pick otherwise) yet he was basically a dud at stud and was sent to France -then disappeared, but his full brother Vice Regent was probably one of the most underrated studs of all time and he only broke his Maiden and failed to hit the board in his other races. It was a good thing they gave him a chance.

Bottom line if they don't produce get them to somewhere they can't do damage to the line.--Turkey or somewhere.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

*** — Thu, 15 May 2008 13:01:01 GMT

Outcrossing is a necessity, saturation of these 'bloods' requires it, BREEDER'S will follow suit and act accordingly. But, Pay attention to 'Luv Luvin's' family, One last generation is still available, going back across son's of Mr. Prospector will salvage the N.D. & S.W. lineage for sometime to come. Itensifying 'Raise A Native' & "Nasrullah', seems to re-invigorate these lines, see Henrythenavigator for example.

re: Northern Dancer Pensioned

DANCERFAN — Thu, 15 May 2008 02:40:39 GMT

Right on target Julie L! It was Native Dancer that all these others descended from and he should be getting the credit. He is the only all time great you will see in the pedigree of the vast majority of the top horses racing today and his influence is still dominating 41 years after he passed on!