Belmont Brown?

re: Belmont Brown?

sgillies — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:39:04 GMT

Follow-up: IAEH Stables co-owner Michael Iavarone indicated in a recent interview that a $300,000 fee was considered, had Brownie won the Belmont.

re: Belmont Brown?

S JFan — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:50:59 GMT

Smarty Jones' stud fee is 100,000. I would guess that Big Brown's would be 350,000...

P.S. I didn't know Storm Cat was taken out of duty???

re: Belmont Brown?

pandora — Mon, 26 May 2008 15:17:09 GMT

Quarter cracks tend to recur, regardless of the skill with which they are repaired. Surely they have tried the supplements we use for "iffy" hooves? And they didn't work, if they were used, which in my mind makes the problem a little more serious than the horse's connections are saying. Both financial considerations and concern for the horse's feet should retire him after the Belmont. Don't believe he would beat Curlin this fall anyway, so it would be stupid to take the chance of injuring the horse. Would I want to breed a mare to a bad-footed horse? Not on your life. Though I wouldn't be surprised at a $250,000 fee to begin with if he wins the Triple Crown. If his first foals have foot trouble as well, and notice I said IF, his stud fee will drop considerably. Another consideration - unless we want the government to take over the industry, we need to begin to avoid breeding to any horse that has the slightest flaw that can lead to a breakdown. And a popped quarter certainly can. Unfortunately we won't know if his get inherited his feet until they get into training. My last horse that had bad feet was worked on by a top farrier for three years. I ended up selling him for 10% of his purchase price to be used as a pleasure horse.

re: Belmont Brown?

Karen — Fri, 23 May 2008 21:24:22 GMT

I am going to throw this out there and see if anyone agrees with me. BB is a little different than what we have seen in the most recent past for a number of reasons. Lets just push aside the fact that this colt can run. From any post, off the pace, in the lead, inside, outside. Lets just push aside the fact that he has instant acceleration when needed. Lets focus on his bloodlines and why he was in hot pursuit even before his Preakness win. If you look at BB's bloodlines, there is a whirlwind of inbreeding. It has been said that this form of inbreeding doesn't usually generate a great runner, but possibly a great sire. When BB showed up and proved his talent exists along with his incredibly interesting pedigree, you have an industry wanting to get him into the breeding shed to see what he can produce. Is it his pedigree they are all after???

re: Belmont Brown?

Billy D. — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:11:46 GMT

To Sundance: I hope your right. A also agree BB's stud fee will be insanely too high. In regards to the owners of the filly who ultimately was bred to Alydar. It was Seattle Slew's owners who declined and thought the filly wasn't fashionally bred enough.

I don't know why people aren't calling BB, by a nickname like, Brownie, the brown spot or my favorite... Splotchy! I think Splotchy fits BB the Trainer and the owners. It's certainly better than 'Fupeg' as Fusaichi Pegasus was referred to.

re: Belmont Brown?

Sundance — Mon, 19 May 2008 19:21:10 GMT

I think Casino Drive is going to kick his behind in the Belmont. I honestly don't think he can carry it 1.5 miles. But, either way, his stud fee will be ridiculously high, ~150 to 200k. He really needs to run at least thru the end of the year, if not next year.

re: Belmont Brown?

Robert — Mon, 19 May 2008 19:05:28 GMT

I think what is amazing is that horses still sell for such huge sums of money.

Big Brown, Silver Charm, Seattle Slew and countless other great horses sold for less than $100,000.

What is the point to breed to one of these stallions for such a high amount of money when in reality you have no clue what kind of race horse he or she is going to be?

Meaning, the breeding industry has somehow convinced horse buyers that a few races truly determines how good a stallion the horse will be. Also, they try to associate that when it comes to selling the sires offspring and horse owners buy into it and pay way too much for what ends up being a $25,000 claimer.

I don't think you can judge how good a horse really is when he only runs against three year olds. If BB ran against Curlin he would probably have no chance.

If horse buyers thought like me, horses would have to run to age 4 because nobody would breed to a horse that for the most part is not proven to be anything more than good for a few months. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex come to mind.

re: Belmont Brown?

Julie L. — Mon, 19 May 2008 18:43:02 GMT

Big Brown's stud fee, it's a shame that we are discussing it so early. Seattle Slew and Affirmed both ran as four year olds and even though Spectacular Bid did not win the crown he when on at age four as well. If he wins the Crown my guess is that they will stand him at no less than $350,000 and if he should lose the crown then I say that they stand him for around $150,000. It's a shame that they have already decided not to run him at four it's a loss to horseracing and horseracing fans. We need our heros on the track like Curlin, thank god his owner was good enough to let us watch him race awhile longer. But in general we don't have them anymore. Native Dancer ran as a four year old, Seabiscuit, I know I am mentioning horses from long past but therein lies the problem we are not given the chance anymore to invest our hopes and dreams into the sport of horseracing. I do hope that we have another Triple Crown winner whether it is Big Brown or another but part of loving the prospect of of one is also predicting the possiblity of another horse just coming into his own and maybe beating Big Brown or whomever, that's what makes horseracing so great not how much financially a horse is worth but how much heart he or she is worth. I hope Curlin's owner does not bypass the Breeder's Cup due to the surface, a truly great horse can run anywhere and I think Curlin is just such a horse, sorry Big Brown but I am still waiting to see more brilliance from you if they give you the chance.

re: Belmont Brown?

Billy D. — Mon, 19 May 2008 18:03:46 GMT

IF Big Brown wins the Triple Crown, I think his tud fee will be $125k. If BB loses his stud will probably be around 80k. Do I think he's worth this much? No, simply because he isn't spectacularly bred except for his paternal grandsire. BB appears to be bred to be more of a turf miler. Remember Secretariat, Spectacular Bid & Affirmed? The only one of those who came close to being and average stud was Secretariat. Other than the few champions he sired, when you do the math compared to how many mares he was bred to?!?! The thing with setting a stud fee too high is the possibility of shutting out some potentially good broodmares. I remember a time when the owners of a mare wanted to breed to Seattle Slew but the fee was I think $125k at the time, instead the breeder went to Alydar and produced a grade I stakes winning filly whose name right now escapes me. Good luck to BB either way.

re: Belmont Brown?

Robert — Mon, 19 May 2008 16:03:40 GMT

Win or lose, Big Brown will retire. It's unfortunate but if I owned a horse worth $50 million I would retire him also.

The days of people owning and racing horses with the attitude, "My horse is better than your horse and we'll settle this on the race track," are long gone!

re: Belmont Brown?

Lure1 — Mon, 19 May 2008 15:00:41 GMT

Look at the pedigree of Big Brown. Very tightly inbred. No Mr Prospector. He will go well with AP Indy and Mr Prospector types. The problem I see is how may tighly inbred stallions have done well in the shed? Comments welcome

Scot's reply: Thanks for the opportunity to plug an old post! :-) Back at the beginning of April, I opined about Big Brown's close-up inbreeding pattern being a huge boon for him when he makes it to the breeding shed. See that post here. Additionally, a couple of days before the Derby, I edited a fascinating article that compares Big Brown's breeding patterns to those of the great Domino. Here's my old post, which includes a link to the Domino story.

re: Belmont Brown?

racingfan — Mon, 19 May 2008 03:35:07 GMT

Other than Curlin's victory in the world cup, this was the easiest win I've ever seen in a major race! I think he'll win the triple crown and I think he's a real nice horse so far but I wouldn't call him "great" if he retires after the Belmont. To be a truly great horse he would have to do more. I think his stud fee will be in the $200-300k range although I believe that to be too much. On another note: I would like to know how others feel about NBC showing actual footage of Eight Belles breakdown not five minutes into the telecast. I was heartsick and I felt that was truly in bad taste and I wrote them to say so. I had not seen that footage and I wish I hadn't! It really put a damper on my excitement about the race. In the future maybe they should not be the ones broadcasting races and all who were upset like me should let them hear about it.

re: Belmont Brown?

Janesville Liz — Mon, 19 May 2008 01:03:00 GMT

I would hazard a bet the deal included a secret semen test to see if he is virile or not. After the Cigar debacle, I doubt anyone wants $50 million worth of egg on their faces.

re: Belmont Brown?

Teri PA — Mon, 19 May 2008 00:11:19 GMT

Wouldn't be ironic if Big Brown turns out to be sterile. His broodmare sire, Nureyev, had fertility problems, his sire was pensioned due to fertility, and another Danzig grandson, George Washington was almost sterile. What would the people who said that he definitely wouldn't race as a four year old do then?

re: Belmont Brown?

Eric — Sun, 18 May 2008 23:39:51 GMT

BB will stand for $125k. I think TC would get serious pushback from breeders if the number goes much above that, regardless of the belmont outcome. Who in there right mind would pay a $200k fee for an unproven stallion who dominated a very weak crop of 3yr olds?

re: Belmont Brown?

Janesville Liz — Sun, 18 May 2008 22:45:43 GMT

Oh, I so agree!! Big Brown is a wonderful horse, but his connections make me want to vomit. I cannot stand that brash, arrogant trainer Rick Dutrow. And his Wall Street yuppie owners make my skin crawl. To have them say that their racing stable is run like an investment portfolio made me ill. They act as if the horses are mere monetary commodities, and not flesh and blood creatures. If a stock value goes down, unload it, if it goes up, cash in on it at the highest dollar amount you can get. I have longed to see another Triple Crown winner, and I hate to see one come along owned by such money-grubbing people. They are not horsemen in any way, shape, or form. They are about as knowledgable about horse racing as they would be about pig racing. They are only in it for the money and the ego boost they are getting. Too bad the next Triple Crown winner could not hail from the Phipps stable, one of the last vestiges of owners who raced for sport and the love of the animal there are left.

re: Belmont Brown?

AL — Sun, 18 May 2008 22:16:39 GMT

So many opinions of what to do with someone else's horse. A better question might be, "What would you do if you owned him?"

Owning Big Brown is a life changing event, unless you happen to have $10 million or more tucked away in your bank account. And even then the horse will change your life.

If I owned him, naturally the Belmont would be next. Then probably the Travers. If he still is doing great then maybe the Jockey Club Gold Cup. If after all of that I would consider the Breeder's Cup but the synthetic track there might just cause me to send him to Three Chimneys and call it the best, luckiest thing that ever happen to me in horse racing.

The follwing year you would find me at the major sales, buying what I never could have dreamed of affording prior to Big Brown.

re: Belmont Brown?

Johnny — Sun, 18 May 2008 22:07:12 GMT

Whatever one feels about the human side, Big Brown didn't ask for his connections, nor did he decide when he'd retire. All he wants for himself is a full feedtub, fresh clean water, and I'm sure a happy life after racing. Maybe that sounds a little corny, but it's true.

If you've enjoyed watching this horse, I encourage you to keep enjoying him.

re: Belmont Brown?

Katherine — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:50:41 GMT

Big Brown is tremendously talented. It is unfortuante that the opponents he has faced have been mediocre. This year's crop of three year olds is one of the poorer crops I have seen.

I look forward to seeing him face a higher caliber of competition in the Belmont.

I reacted to Michael Iavarone's premature announcement about the pending news conference about stud plans for BB with revulsion. His announcement struck me as unbridled greed.He is all Wall Street and has no place standing in the company of true horsemen and sportsmen such as Ogden Phipps, Penny Tweedy and others.

His association with Big Brown has taken away my pleasure in watching this grand horse. I have been waiting and waiting for another Triple Crown winner, and saying maybe next year, as have so many others. A writer on another blog said "I hope BB does not win the TC, I can wait another year". I emphathize with him, if BB wins the TC it will be like "ashes in my mouth". This Wall Street approach to racing makes me sick! base. How sporting is it to announce stud plans and declare the chance of BB racing beyond 3 is "none" before the running of the Preakness? It left the impression he woould just as soon not even race BB in the Belmont.

I love BB's pedigree with the inbreeding to Round Table, Damascus and Northern Dancer but if he is retired immediately after the TC his accomplishments will not be that impressive. The other 11 TC winners had much more impressive careers against much stronger competition. That fact and if he is retired quickly and does not prove his durability would influence me to consider sending send my mare to a stallion like Congaree or hard knocking Hard Spun.

Just my thoughts...Katherine

re: Belmont Brown?

Sigh — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:43:42 GMT

If anyone wants to know whats wrong with the sport today, just look at the announcment of BB's retirement already. My only question is this; what makes Big Brown more valuable then say, Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew? All of whom were triple crown winners and all of who raced on, either on other surfaces or in countries. All of whom had stud deals prior to retirement, but still raced on, to showcase their talent and to share that talent with the fans who so dearly love them. To his retirement..BAH HUM BUG to the sport.

re: Belmont Brown?

Lawduck07 — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:26:51 GMT

Missing the days when racing was the Sport of Kings. Old time owners used to have enough money that racing was a hobby and not industry. They wouldn't dream of retiring a horse at 2 or 3 when and "striking when the iron is hot" because they had enough money from other sources that stud value didn't matter.

I'm not typically one of those "good ole days" people. As a young, female professional, I realize that the world is inmany ways a much better place today than it was 50 years ago. But when it comes to racing, I'm not so sure.

re: Belmont Brown?

Shad — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:11:16 GMT

Quick note to Mary about all yjose stallions with less than 15 starts- they all broke down during racig or training.

I don't think (given the current situation) that we will ever now if BB is a truly great horse. He will most likely be retired after the Belmont and we will never know if he woould bet a less than brilliant four year old.Stud fee first year 200K if he beats Casino Drive.

re: Belmont Brown?

Jason — Sun, 18 May 2008 20:01:36 GMT

Prediction: Big Brown wins the Belmont Stakes. During the post-race interview the owners announce his retirement and state that he will be heading to Three Chimneys within the next 10 days. Three Chimneys will then announce his stud fee will be be $150,000.

And for everyone that is talking about Curlin running in the Breeders' Cup Classic forget it. He doesn't like sythetic track surfaces.

re: Belmont Brown?

Wanda — Sun, 18 May 2008 19:00:11 GMT

I agree with the comments.It's a shame that money talks.50 years ago the big stables bred and raced their own stock and ran them well into their 4 and 5 year old year. Last Friday you had Jim Squires on the Bloodhorse.com as guest speaker.If you can pass this on to him in some way, I believe a horse he bred broke the track record at Stampede Park for a mile on May17.

re: Belmont Brown?

Johnny — Sun, 18 May 2008 18:45:44 GMT

I don't have a problem with retiring an exceptional colt at the age of three, depending on what he's already accomplished and any other circumstances that may affect him. Every horse is unique and continuing to race one horse at the age of four or older, may not necessarily be in the best interest of another. Comments have already been made about both Man o'War and Secretariat in this regard, and their owners had very good reasons for their decisions. And while I'd generally agree that "Greatness is only defined by longevity," that is not always the case. The French racer Sea-Bird raced only eight times in his career, yet had a Timeform rating of 145, highest of any horse in the 20th Century. Having said that, I don't know how sound the horse was, but Sea-Bird died at the very young age of 11.

In Big Brown's case, perhaps his history of foot problems have played into the connections' decision, and I certainly understand that. I don't really have any strong feelings about his retirement being announced prior to the Preakness. If Big Brown wins the Triple Crown (or even if he doesn't), the only other thing I'd like to see him do before he's sent off to stud, is beat good older horses. But I doubt Curlin would be one of them. In the first place, I don't see their paths crossing, and even if they did, typically, all things being equal, the older horse should beat the younger one.

One of the things I love about Big Brown's pedigree is the inbreeding to Round Table, one of the soundest, most durable horses that ever set foot on a racetrack. Round Table excelled on dirt, was supreme on turf, then went on to an exemplary stud career, and lived to the ripe old age of 33.

I won't speculate on what Big Brown's stud fee would be.