The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Better Than a Money Machine

The Five-Cross Files — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:12:01 GMT

A fine mare produces yet another high-class winner. As a small tribute to Better Than Honour, here are some of her headlines from the past.

Broodmarathon -- Better Than Honour: Broodmare at Risk?

The Five-Cross Files — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:06:28 GMT

Dam of Rags to Riches, Jazil, and Casino Drive fails to produce a foal in 2008 or 2009. Does that affect her value in the Thoroughbred sales ring?

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Julie L. — Thu, 29 May 2008 22:31:34 GMT

Thank you Marc W, we need to remember those great horses and great performances to judge the potential greatness of those today or yet to come. Dr. Fager was great along with Buckpasser and Damascus and Ridan, Ribot. People need to remember and hold those images close to their hearts. I go to Santa Anita and Hollywood Park quite abit and though there are horses running that don't have the well known names they have given me just as much excitement and thrills as the likes of any of those greats from the past and the greats of today. Those claimers and allowance horses are the backbone of this industry and we should recognize them as well as we do Big Brown and the rest. They give us thrills and chills too.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Thu, 29 May 2008 19:46:26 GMT

Monica-yes- you were wrong thinking last years Breeders Cup was on synthetic, it was run on dirt. Technically you can't really have a sloppy track on synthetic surface (I am a little confused how you could miss all the press about this year's BC at SA being the first to be run on one as racing fan)

Julie it (Alysheba's Derby)was truly awesome as was Afleet Alex's Preakness. My favorite show of heart and determination came in the Breeders Cup mile turf at Woodbine when Da Hoss won off 1 start in two years after a breakdown. He refused to lose, I have never seen a gamer performance in my racing career and I saw Dr.Fager (Greatest Horse Ever) Kelso, Damascus and Buckpasser et.. It wasn't as dramatic as the other two but left me literally quivering and shaking in appreciation of what I had seen. I have never felt that way after any other race I have seen.

I didn't bet him nor was he my favorite horse. I have never seen a gamer horse with more heart than he was that day to have his nose in front at the wire. He was a beaten horse all the way through the stretch until the finish that just wanted to win that badly, he succeeded. I don't think he ran again, and I know he is at KY Horse Park now for his retirement.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Julie L. — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:35:37 GMT

To Monica V you are right about watching the great ones I am about to turn fifty so I've followed the same horses you have, how I loved Alydar and hated seeing him lose to Affirmed but what great races they gave us and showed true greatness. Maybe one day these folks that are alittle younger than us will come to see just what we mean about heart and that we don't mean that we want the horse "run into the ground" but want to see that wonderful heart beating the odds. Remember when Alysheba stumbled in the stretch run of the Derby yet righted himself and won. He became in that instant the people's horse, they saw his "heart" and we fell in love with a horse who was not favored to win but showed that he was coming into his own. Alysheba didn't win every time but when he did how exciting it was. He only got better with age.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Monica V — Wed, 28 May 2008 23:25:17 GMT

Wendy G,

I think it's wonderful that you have this great passion for BB. It's a wonderful thing to love a horse like that and it's what keeps racing going, fans like you.

The horses are whar I love about this sport. I have been following racing since I was 15 years old and I am now 57. I was fortunate enough to have seen many of the greats, including Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Alydar and Spectacular Bid. Not to mention Native Diver, John Henry, Forego, Sunday Silence and Easy Goer. I loved them all. But when someone says that BB must be tested in order to be called great, they are not wanting the horse to be run into the ground, they merely feel he has to prove that he can endure. The more a horse races, the more likely it is he will lose. Every horse can be beaten even BB and it will happen if they don't retire him immediately which I feel they will do. It is hard to compare a horse with 5 wins or maybe six wins if he takes the Belmont when you talk about a horse who has run 26 times and won 23 times. We don't race our horses that much anymore because I think the breed is getting weaker due to the small gene pool. All thoroughbreds are descended from only 3 stallions. Horses use to race a lot more than they do now. Citation raced until he was 6. That would never happen now. They are too valuable in the breeding shed and very susceptible to injury. There are more breakdowns now than used to be.

Wanting to see BB race more to put the greatness tag on him is not a sick mentality, it is merely what others feel should happen before putting him in the same league as the other great Triple Crown winners but it doesn't seem to be a possibility. We all have our opinions about this and I respect your opionion and your passion for this horse but some of us don't share that. We all have feelings about it based on different things and that's what makes all this interesting. You can argue all you want but you won't convince the others to see it your way. Just be happy that you are around to see another possible TC after all these years. I've seen the really GREAT triple crown winners but they had a really hard road to follow to that point with many races. Secretariat raced 7 times as a 2 year old and won horse of the year that year and the next year. It's just different now. Keep loving this sport the way you do and stick to your guns about BB

it's your right and God Bless you and BB. I hope he comes through the Belmont sound and healthy as I wish for the rest of the horses too for if there is one thing I cannot stand, it's when a horse sustains a life-threatening injury, it just breaks my heart.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Julie L. — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:01:39 GMT

Man, I've been gone a few days and suddenly I read that Pyro is a mule! Backs my point about emotions running high, I don't think that you can call Pyro a mule and I wish I could have heard your views on him when he was undefeated, I remember people were real excited about him. He got a bad trip in the Derby and he may be alittle tired, yeah they do get tired, I watched Seattle Slew get defeated in the Swaps Stakes because his owners got over confident and didn't listen to Billy Turner his trainer and let a tired horse run. I don't want to take anything away from J.O. Tobin who won that day as he was England's champion two year old the year before but he wasn't really the caliber of Seattle Slew. I think everyone should take a deep breath and just watch the horse race and enjoy it whatever the outcome. I am a little worried about that quarter crack, I use to ride barrelracers and we never ran a sore horse or one with a quarter crack, let's hope the owners and trainer do not get swept away like the owners of Seattle Slew

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Tue, 27 May 2008 18:15:09 GMT

Meilanie,

If the trainer thinks he is fine, and with the vets and what they pump horses with these days-I wouldn't worry. One only needs to see how some horses come back after a races these days and think the horses will be lucky to race again, only to see them jog in their next start by 10 lengths.

We are well past the days on oats, water, and ice. Any winning stable has a high powered vet. I am not saying they are cheating, they just use anything allowed under the rules. Some less high profile trainers can't afford to do it, they just use the ice buckets to stand their horses in and time.

I am not up to date on what fees per day some high profile trainers charge in NY. Vets and shoeing are extra-it isn't cheap to keep a horse in training nowadays. (not that it ever was) If you don't pay and cut corners-you are not competitive.

Racing is now all business as is any other sports franchise.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Monica V — Tue, 27 May 2008 15:24:54 GMT

Am I wrong in my recollection that the surface at Monmouth where the BC was held is synthetic? Curlin won the classic there in 2007 on a sloppy track that I do believe was a synthetic surface. Right?

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Melanie L. — Mon, 26 May 2008 01:07:43 GMT

There's talk now that BB has a slight quarter crack. He's going to miss a few days of training and Dutrow doesn't think it's an issue. Can BB really afford to miss any training at this point if he's going to win?

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Fri, 23 May 2008 15:23:38 GMT

It was a stupid reply on my part, and wish I hadn't made it. Bet him and get 10-1, good luck, but I think you will be keeping the tickets as souvenirs.

In the Preakness I wanted Reade Baker's horse to run well as I worked with him for a few years in the mutual calculating room at Woodbine and Fort Erie and considered him a friend at the time.-We have not talked in the last 20 years but I was still rooting for him to do well.

I tend to bet with my head and without emotion. I thought Reade's statements were wild and out of place before the race looking on the outside with a gambler's logic.

Having said that I really wish somebody would come to me with an serious offer like yours "involving money" ------I will lay odds.

I don't love Big Brown nor his connections but I think we are going to see a Triple Crown winner this year barring incident. In any respect I think it will be good for a sport I love and introduce it to many new people.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Whatever — Fri, 23 May 2008 14:48:24 GMT

Marc W: altough you seem to know what you are talking about regarding racing, you also seem to be a bully with a gambling problem. It is important to keep in mind that the blogs are opinions. Just as yours is an opinion. Mike, I don't think you will get a friendly gentleman's bet from Marc.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Mike from Ossineke, Michigan — Fri, 23 May 2008 02:22:30 GMT

Marc W- well, I didn't mean bet money, I was thinking more of a friendly gentleman's bet. You seem very knowledgeable about thoroughbred racing, probably more than me, however, I just feel that Denis of Cork is ready for a fantastic performance. It was unbelievable how they mishandled him leading up to the Derby, but I think he is coming into his own now. People seem to be underating him, I think that would be a big mistake. Anyway, good luck with Big Brown.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:40:57 GMT

Marc W- I will bet you right now, that Denis of Cork places ahead of Big Brown.

Mike from Ossineke, Michigan 22 May 2008 4:46 PM

Answer:

How much money do you have? Up for 20K?

Money in a neutral account the day of the race- to be given to the winner after the race. How about the moderator of this Blog? Stan Bergstein that writes for the Racing Form-I keep in contact with him from time to time and he is the standard on ethics and honesty.

I gamble to win and don't play just to bet. I cashed for 25K plus on Unbridled when he won the Derby, my only truly large bet on a classic race. (I don't consider the $200 WP on Smarty Jones and touch more on Sunday Silence big bets-this year it was only a $20 tri-key off Big Brown-wasn't close) I didn't win that by betting $2.

Opinions are one thing, I would much rather cash big on a $5,000 claiming race, than boasting rights I had the winner of the Derby. I always honor my gambling debts but trust no one except a few. I also don't make wild statements without backing them.

I track my gambling I am up a little more than 12k this year, last year only $4600 after blowing a 30K lead. I love the game but when my money is involved it isn't a game anymore, it is business! I don't offer a bet unless I plan to back it.-Keep to your opinions and just that, unless you do-I am for real!

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:13:55 GMT

Changing speeds. Opinions are just that.

Does anyone else wonder why no other comments about Woody Stephens are mentioned when talking about the Belmont. He did it in the modern era-no drugs or hints of taking a edge/scandal-clean record all through his career.

If Casino Drive should win-bad for racing in general and bringing new faces into the sport-but it will even eclipse and will be more amazing than Woody's record but nobody but race fans will appreciate it.

Thoughts on-

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

sgillies — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:00:12 GMT

For those who haven't seen my buddy Jason's Triple Crown Talk post, you've got to check it out. Good news for those who'd like to see Big Brown race post-Belmont...

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Mike from Ossineke, Michigan — Thu, 22 May 2008 20:46:04 GMT

Marc W- I will bet you right now, that Denis of Cork places ahead of Big Brown.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

sgillies — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:27:33 GMT

Let's all make sure to play nice. These comments are more fun for everyone when there are lots of differing viewpoints....

And thanks, all, for your passion for the sport. We need more fans out there who love the horses and exchange ideas.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Robert in Houston — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:23:07 GMT

Marc said; 'Robert,

Although most of your comments flatter mine-I loved Slew and he had that great will to win he had along with all his talent. (thats why I have him above Secretariat because I think he would have outgamed him.

Kelso-well, we need a horse like him.

I still can't make a case for Sham except he would have been a champion 3 yr old if not for Big Red. I truly believe he would have been dusted in races like the Marlboro Cup.

My knock on Secretariat is simple, Angle Light beat him in the Wood, Onion-poor Onion that ended up running at the old Waterford Park (Mountaineer) for $1500 claimers beat him at a mile after the Triple Crown, Prove Out. You mention the unbelievable race when Slew came back at Exceller after being toasted (Of course Dr. Fager only went 1:06-name any other horse that has gone that fast ever other than downhill, let alone a distance race to the 6F when he got dusted by Damascus and Buckpasser beat him for second) That is what greatness is all about-talent and the will to win. Big Red had all the talent in the world, maybe more than any other horse ever, but he overpowered horses but didn't have the killer instinct-Eye of the Tiger. That is my problem with calling him the greatest. If he got looked in the eye or had to go the extra effort???????

Zanjaro-nice horse in a tough year-beat this Derbies field I seriously doubt it. It is far too difficult to say where the bottom of Big Brown's talent is. We can't say what he will do if looked in the eye----AGAIN THAT IS NOT HIS FAULT. Somebody talking about the Belle being beat early in her career, which was not your comment-dumb! She won every start in 2008 prior to the Derby. Secretariat got dusted in his first race. Northern Dancer lost his first to a nice sprinter called Rambling Road (I was there) but later that year was beaten easily a horse called Garcon d' Or- who was a nothing. Dance Smartly beat everyone, colts included after a good but not astounding 2yr old year, at 3 while going undefeated. She was probably a lot better than one would think. She just may have been as good as Rags To Riches although that is a stretch, but we will never find out. Like BB it is stupid to knock her.

The bottom line is we just don't know how good the colt is. He's definitely to this point, something very special. He won't race after 3 so it will be all a guess to how good? My money says he won't meet Curlin as their is a lot to lose in both camps if they get beat. $10 million racing does not equate to $25 million a year in stud fees. Even if a dud at stud you still have 3 years to harvest the rewards at some ungodly stud fee.

Let's just see if he wins the Belmont (and how he does it)-hope for a match-up with Curlin or some import like Invasor-it is all guess work right now. To knock a horse that has done everything right and easily is stupid. Chances are no matter what he does- save go to France and win the Arc my opinions on the greatest horse won't change. I do know he is the best of his group so far. How much more can you ask?'

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good post Marc- let me say the following;

1. The filly that came in 2nd in the Derby lost 4 of her first 6 races- non of them stakes, then got into the Derby winning to minor stakes against a filly that hasn't won since November. The Preakness field was so bad- there were only 3 horses in the race that had won a graded stake of any type.

Sham- If you had been saying that Sham would be dusted in the JCGC at a mile and a half- I would agree, but Sham ran the greatest race in Preakness history that didn't result in a victory- still, Sham won 14 of 17 races and was only off the board when he ran himself into the ground trying to keep up with Secretariat around the far Belmont turn. The Derby was a mile and a quarter- so your thinking Sham would fail in the Marlboro doesn't reason out since he lost at the same distance to Big Red in the Derby- BUT- Sham was 2 1/2 lengths off THE WORLD RECORD Secretariat had just set.

I never said I thought Secretariat was the greatest if you check my words- I have said many times that he had problems with older horses and that Prove Out was no fluke- he crushed Riva Ridge, then went on and easily best Secretariat- he never got his due.

I did make the comment about Belle- once again- she lost 4 of her first 5 races- none of them were stakes, she came into the Derby winning two minor stakes against Pure Clan- a horse that hasn't won a race since November. In one of them she beat 5 horses, the other she beat 3- not her fault, but to suggest she was a great filly is idiotic.

I agree the BB is the best of this group- that isn't saying much in my book as the field for the Preakness was probably the worst ever assembled for that race.

BB is a good horse- but I heard all this same BS with Copelan, War Emblum, Air Forbes Won- it's a long list. Good horse- yes, Superhorse? LMAO

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Liz — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:19:15 GMT

Bravo Marc, both comments above are right on the mark.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Robert in Houston — Thu, 22 May 2008 18:55:41 GMT

The comment was; all i have heard is how strong last years crop was and blah blah blah the filly beat them in belmont in a slow race i think your gayegos and pyros would have stuck right with street sence and curlin , big brown on the other hand is incredible, win from the 12 in the fla derby win from the 20 in the derby leave them like they are standing still in the preakness.if this horse was trained by todd pletcher or zito or lukas it would be a nice feel good storey for you all ,but everyones problem is dutrow

>>>>>>>>>>>>

This has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read on any horse racing board! Firstly, to compare mules like Gayego and Pyro to Curlin, SS and Hard Spun is so laughable it only shows the lack of knowledge by the author. Whe Curlin won the JCGC- for example- it was an incredible feat for a 3 year old- that one race alone was better than anything I have ever witnessed from BB. In regards to Rags to Riches, once again, she won 3 grade 1 races going into the Belmont- she is a class horse- the Belmont made it 4 grade 1 wins in a row for her, Eight Belles lost 4 of her first 6 races- none of them even a minor stake. Since you mentioned the time of the Belmont- and want to go that road- what records did BB set? LMAO- you don't want to go that road with BB. I also have never said one word about his connections- my comments are strickly related to the horse.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Thu, 22 May 2008 18:36:16 GMT

One other note---Smarty Jones I thought was the push button horse as far as rating came until the Belmont. He rated beautifully in all the races leading up to that race at Oaklawn, the Derby and Preakness, and not badly in the Belmont, he just didn't want to go that far and the jockey didn't want to be pinned in. See Northern Dancer, Majestic Prince, Sunday Silence as other that really didn't want that extra 1/4 mile. He wasn't hot headed-nor were the other 3, mention Dr Fager or Seattle Slew-they wanted the front and were hot-headed when they weren't there for good examples.

Horses don't love running long distances no more I did when I ran in a couple of Marathons-you ache get tired, runners you could easily beat at a mile now beat you.

They also don't like muddy tracks- who wants mud in the eyes, slipping and the sting of clots---Some just are better at handling it than others. Put those myths with the bouncers.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Thu, 22 May 2008 18:11:17 GMT

My other comment above 2 places is much more pertinent but a reprint of my comments on bounce

BOUNCE???????? Are all these people trainers? I have trained in a small way-2 horses over 35 years at least under my name, and certainly not an expert at it BUT there are many that are. If a top trainer isn't seeing anything wrong with his horse why do SO MANY FANS AND HANDICAPPERS think they know it all? Most have never been on the backstretch that use that term. It is one of the most overused word in racing.

A good trainer knows his horse and what to do to keep him right. Zito-Birdstone-small horse needed time between races. Carry Back ran 21 times as a 2yr and won the Derby and Preakness along with bushels of money for the era.

Please drop this "Bounce" talk. AND for the record, one of my horses was a cheap speed horse and in the days before as winter racing I ran him 3 times in 8 days at 4 1/2F the first two were 2 days apart he won both. He finished 3rd the next time to another horse that was coming back on 3 days rest off a win.

Track condition and surface-fevers-nervous,washing out , soreness, bad shipping trip, et., et., et., are are much more viable reasons for a poor performance than a "BOUNCE"!

I will say that ship in from different countries have run poorly in their second start. My theory is much more simple for this-go from NYC to Seattle the water is different and in horses so is the feed-hay (horses ship with own hay usually-at first) comes from a different area. I know in travels my stomach and well being sometimes is effected by changes in diet and weather, time zones- racing off the plane little is different but that changes after you re-adjust. We are all creatures of habit-horses more so. Thus the poorer performance, NOT because the previous effort weeks ago has drained them.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Karen — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:31:51 GMT

Nancy P. That was Smarty's style and everyone knew it. He got excited while racing and had a hard time relaxing. He was hot headed and was fiercly competitive. He wanted no part of sitting off the pace, which is ultimately what got him beat in the Belmont. He just plain ran out of gas. However, Smarty was a great horse and I was extrememly disapointed when he retired. He only got beat by a length in the Belmont and he got beat by a fresh horse. The TC run takes a lot out of a horse. I respect Smarty and in fact he will remain one of my all time favorites for many reasons. He was a little guy with a big heart and a big story.

Melanie: The bounce theory in my opinion is statistical and nothing more. I agree with you that Dutrow shouldn't be so confident and not count Casino drive out, but they are basing their opinion on the fact the Casino Drive is inexperienced. Everyone was saying BB would bounce in the preakness but he didn't. I think you can look at the statistics and factor them in to some degree. Dutrow is a confident guy and I would imagine right now, if you can imagine the high he is on, he is weighing all the factors going in to this race and just can't see Casino Drive beating BB. BB is on fire and I think it will have to take a series of "goofy" circumstances to dethrone BB, but this is the Belmont and I never say never when it comes to the Belmont.

re: The Other Belmont Entrant Looking Towards History

Marc W — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:24:49 GMT

When young I would mimic announcer Freddy C's call between Kelso and Mongo. I have worked for E.P. Taylor as a messenger in the Turf Club and watch races with him giving him updates where his horse was during races. I was there at Windfields in Oshawa when Northern Dancer didn't sell for 25K and the woman my dad was with bought a horse called Whitesborough won later won as stake at the same sale. I saw Northern Dancer get beat two times out of three I saw him run in Canada live. Seen many Derbies, Breeders Cup, Washington DC Internationals, Worked in Barns with the mare of Danzig, walked La Prevoyante when she was in Florida and Johnny Starr wasn't, clocker, gap man, owner trainer, met great jockeys, and worked for great trainers.

I DON'T KNOW HOW GOOD BIG BROWN IS?

1)I won't knock him like some-He's been PERFECT AND AWESOME to this point!

2) As he will never race as a 4 yr old or often we will only be guessing how good if he remains unbeaten. Even if meets and beats Curlin-so what-that will never change opinions on where he ranks against the all time greats. I not so sure Curlin would beat Invasor and neither other than in Newbies to the game rate these two in most Top Ten's. Even if he beat both which is impossible-people would argue on his merits.

If you could line up Secretariat, Dr Fager, Citation, Seabiscut, Man of War, Spectacular Bid, Damascus, Kelso, and John Henry and race them Mike Watchmaker would come up for an excuse why his pick and 3 others didn't win and print in the form. NOT to pick on him exclusively, he would not be alone. The fact is it is all conjecture.

Enjoy the Damn Races if he wins we get a TC winner and more interest in the game giving it a boost-DOES ANYONE KNOW RACING IS A DYING SPORT IN THIS COUNTRY??? ---If--- Casino Drive wins something more impressive will occur but will be lost on the masses. How many people out of the game talk about Woody Stevens-including many who post facts and figures on blogs without referring to a computer search and couldn't tell a colt from a filly without looking under.

Debate is great----opinions are open to everyone knowledgeable and not-but people that knock perfection are idiots-SAVE THAT--- for when you can say "I told you so!"