Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Dave BC Canada — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:37:20 GMT

Barb's Promise (barren) for $2,500 and Jaggered Dreams (in foal to Spellbinder) for $3,000. Let's form a pool and see this through! The winnings (if any) can be donated to the Jockeys Guild. Anyway, my money is on Barb's Promise.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Jessy — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:31:47 GMT

I would take Jaggered Dreams since she has already produced a winner out of one foal to race. I also really like her bloodlines and even though she never won, she has the background to produce them and already has.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Greg — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:31 GMT

I pick Barb's Promise! Of course I am biased -- I happen to own her. lol

Barb's Promise is winning mare out of a multiple stakes winner of more than $300K. Her first dam only had three foals, one of which was a graded stakes winner of almost 400K. She has some black type in every generation back to T V Lark. She is completely free of Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer -- a total outcross. Wow -- what's a broodmare got to do to get any respect these days?

Isn't Barb just what the industry should be breeding? Extremely sound racehorses from families with a good percentage of black type?

For example: Barb comes from a small family. There are only 29 foals out of her 1st through 4th dams. Skylak had 3 foals, Lark O' Mine had 11 foals etc. Of the 29 foals produced by her direct female line, 1st through 4th dams there were:

1. 1 Champion

2. 2 Graded Stakes Winners -- 6.9%

3. 7 Stakes Winners -- 24%

4. 9 Stakes Horses -- 31%

6.9% Graded Stakes Winners from foals! 24% Stakes Winners from foals! Storm Cat eat your heart out! A. P. Indy, only in your dreams!

I have opted not to pay for a four dam pedigree for Jaggered Dreams but the produce of her female line would not compare on a percentage basis -- which is all that matters in the end.

Here is my chanllenge: can anyone find a mare having a 4 dam produce record better than Barb's Promise on a percentage basis?

(Don't give the percentages for a single dam, I'm looking for long term trends -- rember Skylak has 33 percent Graded Stakes winners from foals!)

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

NJ — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:31:24 GMT

I would take the Gray, Jaggered Dreams. She should have raced over a mile and after she was four. I am also fond the the Fair Play family with the tendency to late maturity and durability.Her sire's family favors distances, too. I think her trainer was in error. Of course there could have been owner input that did not allow for distance races. I also look at her potential for producing steeplechase and/or eventing prospects. If her current off spring do not rise to expectations, she would make a good event horse where durability is a asset.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Aussie Racer — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 22:47:54 GMT

Both mares have good and bad features in their pedigree, but I would recommend Jaggered Dreams over Barb's Promise as she clearly has more breeding options available.

Her own breeding was heavily conflicted and explains why she was a poor performer.

Her first foal by Slew City Slew was a reasonable attempt to correct her breeding faults and this showed on the track.

However her best foals will be her last two, the Yankee Gentleman colt should be a solid racehorse and while he may not set the world on fire as a 2 yr old he will definitely train on and be a strong 3 yr old.

By far her best foal will be the Spellbinder (colt hopefully) and this horse should start to show his true form as a 2yr old and will go on to become an excellent 3 yr old, with his best distance being 5-7 furlongs.

I would strongly recommend buying Jaggered Dreams both for her broodmare potential and the foal she is currently carrying, who should easily recoup the purchase price on the track.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Jane — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:43:06 GMT

Barb's Promise has much better chance to produce something good because she is a winner and there's a lot better black type up close, including her stakes winning dam.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

katethegreat — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:20:42 GMT

the grey mare is my pick. Quarter

Horse breeder could inject some

needed hybrid vigor into their

"ranchy" horses, or she could produce a nice barrel, or short

track horse.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

swaps — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:56:37 GMT

This is an interesting question, and I thank the poster for letting us chew the fat on this subject.

I would remind all that Rex Ellsworth drove a truck to Kentucky in the depth of the Great Depression and picked up a truck load of Thoroughbred mares and fillies for $600. From this modest start he ultimately went on to breed Swaps, Terrang, Olden Times, Prove It, Correspondent. Some of his early stakes winners came from cheap mares. I can't recall if the dam of Swaps did much on the track, but her dam Iron Maiden by War Admiral also produced Iron Liege.

Yet it was Iron Maiden's daughter by the unheralded Beau Pere who produced the better derby winner.

The big unanswered question is why neither mare was not trained to run beyond a mile. This would have given a better reading. So the lack of class may possibly be due to poor trainers rather than the horse itself.

I think TV Lark was under appreciated as a horse and sire but as a hypothetical breeder on a low budget = and I have bought registered mares for as low as $300 - and boarded them in Utah for as low as $50 a month year round if I bred to one of the farm stallions, this is not so hypothetical.

But I would take the Runaway Groom mare because she has not been unproductive, for whatever reasons, three years in a row.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:25:36 GMT

Thanks Scot for taking the time and, leaving me a comment on my pick :) Thanks also to Sweet Terchi for the positive comment :) I have done alot of research on Borrego .I'm looking forward to the next subject !

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

AnneM — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:34:44 GMT

Barb's Promise has a nice pedigree

but her fertility issues would give me pause - she would make someone a good trail horse. Jaggered Dreams would be the better brood mare.

I see nothing wrong with Northern Dancer in a pedigree. But I would shy away from anything doubled

up on Raise a Native when looking for a stallion to breed her too.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

sceptre — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:10:00 GMT

Many here have suggested that breeding mares such as these (rather than others deemed "better") would, more likely, increase the "unwanted" (rescue-type) population. Not sure that argument holds any water. Breeding less horses would certainly decrease the number of unwanteds, but just breeding "better" horses in the same total numbers shouldn't decrease the relative number of eventual unwanteds. Another method for decreasing the number of unwanted racehorses would be to retire more sound, and to have them be initially broken and trained with not just racing in mind...More food for thought: Taking Barb's Promise as example-it seems rather clear that "nicking" plays a minor (if any) role when selecting potential mates for her. Points out the mistake all too many make in relying too heavily on "nicking" data (pedigree-wise, there's so much more to consider).

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Lady Ruffian — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:22:33 GMT

Barb's Promise would be my pick. Though neither of these mares have standout pedigrees or were top preformers, I like that she has no Northern Dancer in her pedigree and that she's not inbred to death. Theres always potential to give the gene pool a boost with a good cross. I'd actually stay away from the Unbridled line with her and stick with an older stallion with more foundation blood, like Dynaformer. Again: no Northern Dancer there. Too bad his stud fee is astronomical... oh well - fun excersise.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Rhoda — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:34:31 GMT

Jaggered Dreams would be the better broodmare.She has the bloodline from past generations that would yeild her great foals if bred to the right studs.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

AMY ROONEY — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:15:36 GMT

I AGREE I WITH DA3HOSS,

THESES MARES SHOULD BE DRY, I UNDERSTAND THE SMALL TIME BREEDER. ESPECIALLY IF YOU WANT A PARTICULAR CROSS YOU MUST DO IT YOURSELF. AS I HAD TO, I LOVE ARAB/QH CROSSES. BUT NOT THE ONES I FIND ALREADY BORN.

MY YEARLING IS HALF ARAB/QH THAT I BRED. I ALSO HAD A BIG TALK WITH MYSELF ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IF I DO NOT LIKE THE RESULTING FOAL.

WILL I STILL WANT THE FOAL, WILL ANYONE ELSE? AM I READY TO TAKE THE FOAL MYSELF TO A SLAUGHTER FACILITY AND WATCH HER GET BOLTED.

LUCKILY, I GOT WHAT I WANTED, A GEORGEOUS DUN FILLY. ARAB HEAD WITH, A NICE NECK, AND SOME OF THE HEAVY HIP AND SHOULDER OF A QH.

IF EITHER OF THESES MARES ARE BRED AGAIN, WHO WILL WANT THEIR FOALS? WHAT IF NOT ONE OF THEM IS A RUNNER, THEN WHAT?

PERSONALLY, IF I HAD TOO, I WOULD PICK BARB'S PROMISE, MY HORSE IS HURT, I NEED SOMETHING TO RIDE.

I LIKE HER CONFORMATION AND STYLE, PLUS TALK ABOUT BEING SEASONED AND NO SPOOK! ALL THE HARD WORK DONE.

I WOULD GIVE BARB'S PROMISE A NEW CAREER AS A BARREL HORSE.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

da3hoss — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:44:31 GMT

Dementa, I so respect your statement about John Henry, so please don't get me wrong, but for the one John Henry maybe born in a year (and when was the last time a John Henry who reached his level with that pedigree was born?) over 12,000 unwanted Thoroughbreds still go to slaughter. It's wonderful the number is down, but it's not so much that breeders have stepped up to the plate, it's that so many people are into rescue...time for the breeders to work as hard as the rescuers to breed only the absolute best they can.

These two girls should have a life as a beloved riding pal in some new venue, even if it's trail buddy.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Tony!!! — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 05:13:41 GMT

Jaggered Dreams, love the Blushing Groom line, stoute pedigree but never campaigned with that in mind and traces on the bottom line to a 1000 Guineas Winner.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Michael D — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:10:37 GMT

What a fun exercise, interesting ideas being put forth. A good horse can come from anywhere. With both mares having Gr1 sires from prepotent sirelines why not try either one, they're not setting you back a fortune. Any thoughts on Barb's Promise x Hero's Tribute (3x3 Damascus) or Jaggered Dreams x Kayrawan (3x3 Blushing Groom, maybe another Carson City) Anyway we can dream!

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

sweet terchi — Sun, 31 May 2009 23:41:31 GMT

Pedigree Shelly, good choice. I looked him up and the fee is very reasonable. If the owner is by chance looking at this blog I hop they would consider him.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Pedigree Shelly — Sun, 31 May 2009 17:23:39 GMT

Scot,I wanted to ask your opinion on the selection of Borrego for Barbs Promise ,good or bad ? I appriciate your expertise on this subject !

Scot's reply: The best horse bred on this cross is Medaglia d'Oro (El Prado out of a Bailjumper mare) -- he could run all day in top company, and I believe he would've held his own in sprint company if he'd been pointed in that direction. Borrego adds some class and solidifies the middle-distance or classic influences -- could be an interesting choice.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Dementa — Sun, 31 May 2009 05:21:54 GMT

I would choose Jaggered Dreams, coming from the Blushing Groom line. I would consider a stallion like Sky Classic that hails from the Nijinsky line. The Nijinsky - Blushing Groom cross has proven very successful. One comment for those out there that consider these mares a pure trash. Remember the one of the greatest racehorse ever was foaled by a mare not so appealing on paper and his name was "John Henry", but then again he does not stand alone. There are more than a few great horses that were foal by a not so desireable mare. We tend to forget that when we breed the best to the best, we hope for the best. The same can be said when anyone decides to breed a mare they consider the best.

If we don't follow our own beliefs and theories on breeding than this will truely be the Sport of Kings and that will be because we would not be able to afford it.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

largo1 — Sun, 31 May 2009 03:01:16 GMT

I would not breed either one. I bet they'd both make nice trail horses.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Hawkeye — Sun, 31 May 2009 02:54:47 GMT

I honestly cannot decide. Both mares have some very interesting 5th, 6th, and 7th generation ancestors. The problem is that when you play around with such a large gene pool you are going to get an enourmous amount of possible variations. Each offspring is going have differences. You may consistently breed the best to the best and get the worst. You don't always get stamina and soundness. It is not an exact science and would most likely be best if these stallions were bred to a limited number of mares rather than 120 a season. This commercial thing is way out of hand.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Terry — Sun, 31 May 2009 01:41:33 GMT

To produce a foal that could race successfully at Woodbine, I would choose Jaggered Dreams. Could she produce a Derby winner? Not likely, but you might have said the same about Mining My Own!

Late maturity doesn't bother me. If I could afford a broodmare and afford to keep the foal to race, presumably I could afford to wait and start him/her for the first time at three, or even (as I've seen happen at Woodbine) at four. I'd breed the mare to a non-Northern Dancer stallion. Let's face it, ordinary folks breeding race horses seldom win Classic races anyway. They breed for conditions, allowances and claiming. You can make a lot of money even with a good claimer in the right spots, and have a lot of fun racing him/her.

But bottom line? I actually like both mares, and I do like the lack of Northern Dancer in the first mare, since outcrosses are badly needed. I would breed her to a stallion not descended from Northern Dancer, because the breed is becoming saturated with this blood and needs some other lines kept separate for future use.

So I guess if I had the money, I'd buy both! I would certainly get my money back at those prices, provided the foals were sound, athletic and sensible and suited to other disciplines besides racing. The durability in both pedigrees is appealing.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

Julie L. — Sat, 30 May 2009 22:13:14 GMT

Being a small breeder one cannot afford those high price broodmares, yearlings or two year olds so we have to look at those mares that many of you would say you would cull but do you have the bucks to go buy that super high priced broodmare? A small breed does what they can with the money they have so with that said I would choose Barbs Promise. I like her breeding, lots of, what they call, old time bloodlines. No Northern Dancer and no Raise a Native. If I could afford his stud fee I would take her to Dynaformer. Roberto son with a Damascus line daughter. I like the possible offspring from that mating.

re: Can You Pick the Better Broodmare?

CRob87 — Sat, 30 May 2009 20:58:25 GMT

Jaggered Dreams has more potential "IF" your the breed to race type.

Especially if you try her in NY with Mayakovsky at $3,000.

He's only had 1 SW from 51 total foals, but that 1 SW's 2nd dam is by Mt. Livermore (Blushing Groom).

And the Capote line seems to be working with the Runaway Groom line anyways like it did with Najran. Who BTW Najran's 3rd dam is by a son of Nijinsky II like Jaggered dreams 2nd dam is also by a son of Nijinsky II.