Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

sgillies — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:49:03 GMT

Quick update: I see Baronial will stand in Pennsylvania for 2011.

www.godstonefarm.com/.../Baronial.html

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Gia — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:28:28 GMT

It's a shame this colt wasn't gelded upon maturity, in spite of those bloodlines.....His conformation is poor at best and his racing career was at best an embarrasment. I'm a lifelong fan of the Phipps racing stable, and cannot imagine how this one just couldn't get the job done. They would never turn any horse they bred or raised over to the "kill Pen" as someone stated, but it would be nice to find Baronial maybe a home as a useful lesson horse or track pony perhaps.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:58:56 GMT

Yes, This stallion has a great pedigree, there are many stallions that do but,they just dont make it as a stallion ! There are too many unwanted horses !! I'm sure this horse can get a good home or use him as a hunter or dressage horse .

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

SaratogaBob — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:38:10 GMT

I would be curious to know if any of you know where Miner's Mark is presently. Since he was pensioned he seems to have moved several times, and the last location I'm aware of was somewhere in Virginia. I would also be curious to know how you feel Proud and True has done as a sire.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Springsmom83 — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:01:36 GMT

I disagree to some extent about shoulder. Although it looks a bit straight, properly posed, with his neck where it should be, would help determine his shoulder set better. From all that I have seen and read, I would have to see this guy in person to evaluate him properly.

As far as knocking him totally as a breeding stallion, remember that Secretariat was supposed to be the heir apparent to Bold Ruler. However, as a first generation stallion, especially given the mares that he was, he was not particularly impressive. And even then, his daughters were better than his colts. Now, however, his daughters and granddaughters are prized. Yes, my first thought is still to geld this boy and give him a good home. As many times as blood has told, just not where you especially thought it would, makes me think that perhaps he deserves a chance. Look for lines that should nick with him and add a few outcrosses, keep his book small, and see what he does. He could make an interesting regional sire that, if he did well, could grow. Who knows?

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

ElonGrad97 — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:29:51 GMT

WHOAPONY - I 100% agree with in. His legs overall give an impression of weakness. Everything it too long, from pastern to forearm. Forearms and gaskin look weak too. I don't like his front end structure either. Geld him and find someone who will have fun with him. Breeding him -- for race or sport -- won't do anyone any favors.

With that said, I have seen CANTER photos where one shot looks spectacular and another looks like this one, so seeing him in person would be the best thing.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

whoapony — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:17:09 GMT

Thanks to those that posted links to other pictures. Unfortunately, those pictures tell us little about his conformation. Many throroughbreds look beautiful when running but are not so well put together when they're standing still. However, one of the paddock photos shows that he at least is very straight from the front. He doesn't appear to toe in or out at all.

I agree that his sale photo is horrible. However, the leg and shoulder issues are going to be obvious no matter how well he is presented. The appearance of the neck can certainly be affected quite a bit by how he is posed. However, I have found that otherwise well put together horses with less than ideal necks are more suited for riding careers than horses with pretty necks and poor leg conformation.

He does have a pretty expression, though.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

blacksmith1972 — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:17:18 GMT

personal ensign was one of the greatest racehorses of all time and one of the greatest if not the greatest broodmares who else can you name who produced that many champions and dont say terlingua either just because she through storm cat this horse may be her best son sire wise yet no one knows and besides every family produces less than valuable horses terlingua also through wheaton who was a good cheap sire but nothing more

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

sceptre — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:35:57 GMT

To LCM:

I'm not Janesville Liz, but feel I should respond to your post. I am not any more enamored with the Phipps operation than any other, but feel you may have misjudged them. For starters, Versailles Treaty was in-foal when sold by Cynthia's estate at Keeneland. She was getting on in age, but one must assume that her buyer intended to breed her again. Yes, one might argue that a mare of that age should be retired (rather than re-bred), but this seems not your central point. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts; why should a Versailles Treaty be any more deserving on this (your position's) consideration than any other?...Also, re-the Phipps- do you recall a filly named Dancinginmydreams? This royally bred Phipps runner was severely injured (an injury not unlike Barbaro's) while competing in a G-I as a 2 yr. old. The Phipps did everything possible to save her-she was treated and remained at New Bolton for well over a year(I visited her often). Yes, she was quite valuable-particularly as a future broodmare- but many would instead have elected to take the insurance money. It was a long ordeal for her, but she was a wonderful patient, survived, and became the dam of Dancing Forever. To this day, due to the residual effect of her injuries, she requires very special care, and unlike the other Phipps broodmares who are boarded at Claiborne, resides elsewhere... Lastly, don't assume the Phipps breeding and racing operation is a profitable one.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Janesville Liz — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:25:24 GMT

LCM-----

Cynthia Phipps's horses were part of her estate, and probably had to be sold to settle it or settle tax matters. Versailles treaty I believe went to Gaines Thoroughbreds--hardly a place where she would be mistreated. I do not say the phipps keep all their horses. They do their culling, like any breeder. However, I have never heard of any of their horses winding up in a kill pen.

They have always done right by their horses. What they have given to retirement charities I do not know. But given their love of their horses, I would not be surprised if they did. After all, these were the people who brought Pine Island back to Claiborne to be buried after her death. They did not have to go to the trouble and expense to do that, but they did, not only to honor her, but to afford the staff at Claiborne the opportunity who had raised her to honor her as well. Why don't you call Claiborne and ask what kind of patrons they are? I am sure they will give as much praise as I have.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

LCM — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:46:30 GMT

to Janesville Liz,

Why didn't the Phipp's step up to the plate when Cynthia's horses were unloaded at Keeneland? I didn't see them affording Versaille Treaty a nice retirement. I'd love to know exactly how much the horse loving Phipp's have personally given to retirement charities? I wonder what the percentage is compared to their profit over the decades? Do you think the dollars donated would live up to your glowing comments?

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

AMY ROONEY — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:46:34 GMT

there are a good many horses floating around with just as good pedigrees. that does not mean they can reproduce, or make good riding horses.

i cannot provide a link, but for anyone interested, there is a 16 yr old daughter of affirmed for sale in la. just go to barrel horse world website, she is the first at the bottom of new horses for sale. poss in foal to qh stallion. is affirmed rolling in his grave?

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

sceptre — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:12:39 GMT

Dear Robert,

You are a polite fellow, I congratulate your success in this game, and apologize for misreading your remark re-Personal Ensign/Easy Goer...Your apparent yardstick for judging stallion performance would seem to place nearly all in the failure bin. Taken to the nth, I suppose one could say that any stallion who on average doesn't sire profitable runners should be considered a failure. All, or nearly all then would be failures. This can't be the case, but rather they should be labeled relative to one another (yielding some sense of a bell shaped curve). Allow me to submit that the abundance of "failure" is rooted in Racing's failed economics.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Kayte — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:33:27 GMT

I think he's handsome tho I do agree that maybe he not breeding material. I would love for someone to work on him--despite some views, I think he would make decent jumper. Maybe not top level but he could get the job done for someone with the time and maybe not lofty goals of Spruce Meadows or the Olympics. If I had the money I would take him and just turn him into a nice fat riding gelding. To own the son of Personal Ensign would be amazing!

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

hardlyhatful — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:07:44 GMT

All I have to say is that some of the best stallions in the world didn't have the best race records. While most the the best racers in the World have poor produce records.

I wish this horse the best of luck in the breeding shed, and hope he lives up to his pedigee.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

darryl — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:07:45 GMT

He would make a good stallion up here in small town Canada.Viceregal

was horse of year here, not a good sire, but his full brother Viceregent

earned $6215 and sired 15.6% stakes horses from foals.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Mike S — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:51:04 GMT

Sometimes the written word can be misunderstood. I hope the biting sarcasm was not lost on the reader when I said, "The world of horse racing is full of multi-millionaires and billionaires who "can't afford" to retire their horses. Maybe they don't have enough money to pay for BARONIAL's retirement." There's nothing worse than wealthy people who "can't afford" to do the right thing by their less-fortunate horses.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Janesville Liz — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:20:31 GMT

The news is so good to hear that the Phipps family, even though they sold Baronial, will be active in securing his welfare for the future. Though, from the Phipps family, I would expect nothing less. They have been class acts in the Thoroughbred industry for over 80 years. They are true horsepeople and sportsmen of the highest class. A good many of today's owners could learn a lot from them on sportsmanship, dignity, and a love of the animal.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

sceptre — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:08:36 GMT

Many of the posters here claim that Baronial is deserving of a "better life" (than other horses) merely because he's a son of Personal Ensign. I think we should all examine our reasons for such feelings. I suggest that at its root the motivation is selfish.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Robert — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:07:01 GMT

To Sceptre.....Read my first post again. I said her best offspring is BY Easy Goer. You are correct in that most stallions don't sire 13%. I was trying to point out that NO SON OF P.E. is a sire especially given the chances they were given. If someone wants to take a chance with their money with Baronial.....best of luck. DOn't worry about hurting my feelings, I have been at this to long to take this personal. You may think I don't know the industry, and that is your opinion. And why is my 23 years at this business scary?? I must be doing something right if I am still at it. How many others are bankrupt after 6 or 7 years?? Facts say I am successful. Sorry for tooting my horn there. As for saying that Baronial would be good stallion prospect except that he is a P.E. son, if I did not type it, don't infer it. What I said was P.E.'s sons are DINK's as sires and they are. Traditionally is considered below average....even in Europe. You are correct on one thing though, many of today's stallions don't sire 10% and are considered above average. I DON'T CONSIDER THEM ABOVE AVERAGE. I consider them successfully marketed by the farm/owner. I am brutal on the stallions I breed to or even consider. ****As I type this, With Flying Colors just won at Belmont over Cocoa Beach. She is a daughter of My Flag....P.E.'s Easy Goer offspring. Finally, I can respect your opinions. You seem passionate about this business. Stand firm to your views. Makes this game more fun. Thanks for responding to my posts.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Springsmom83 — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:32:29 GMT

Thank you to StallionCo for your input on Baronial. Everyone of us as horse lovers and many of us being thoroughbred lovers do like to see owners and breeders being responsible for the well being of the horses that they bred. It is also comforting to me to know just how many people in the positions of knowing things actually read these blogs and respond to the general public.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

Mike S — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:47:40 GMT

My first thought about this horse is to ask why the Phipps family doesn't just retire this horse to a life of luxury? After all, he is out of their great mare PERSONAL ENSIGN, a horse I'm sure they "love." The world of horse racing is full of multi-millionaires and billionaires who "can't afford" to retire their horses. Maybe they don't have enough money to pay for BARONIAL's retirement.

If this horse has to go to stud I would send him to an up and coming foreign market, like Korea, China, Russia, etc., where a horse with a nice pedigree might be a welcome addition to the gene pool. He's a decent looking horse, and the pedigree is very good.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

sceptre — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:15:39 GMT

To Lordcat:

Our Emblem was originally retired to Claiborne, and stood there for several years before being relocated/sold to Murmur Farm in MD. A bit later War Emblem did his thing, so Murmur (and that syndicate) then sold him back to KY (to Taylor Made, etc.) for a huge profit (as I recall, Murmur got the horse for low six figures, then sold him for something like $12M)...In recent years some of the Phipps better stallion prospects have been retired to Lanes End (new family ties between these two families). Their lesser-lights stallion prospects would have never fit a Claiborne (or a Lanes End), and have been retired elsewhere.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

lordcat — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:26:46 GMT

I would like to point out that Our Emblem DID STAND at Claiborne Farm for five seasons before he was sold for an astronomical amount after his son War Emblem won the Kentucky Derby. I had previously decried the Phipps for not standing their stallions at Claiborne when they were retired. The good runner Good Reward is another example.

re: Son of Personal Ensign -- Stallion Prospect?

StallionCo — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:47:03 GMT

Representing the current owner i can assure everyone that the current owner and the original owner of Baronial have implemented measures to ensure the safety and wellbeing of Baronial as a racehorse and as a stallion prospect. Further measures have been taken to secure his status as a retired stallion successful or not. Baronial was advertised on the website only to investigate stallion opportunities. Where Baronial goes as a stallion will be based on opportunity for success while never compromising a high standard of care custody and control. There is obviously brilliance in his pedigree and it is our hope that his career as a stallion will allow that brilliance to pass through to his progeny. There is great appreciation for the passion of many of the contributors and their concern for Baronial's future, but the current and past ownership of this stallion have gauranteed his safety and care during his racing career, stallion career, and retirement.