Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Broodmarathon: Given Terms Offers Opportunity to Obtain Barbaro's Family

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:13:10 GMT

She has a prominent family and has produced a couple of durable runners. But a poor record as a runner and failure to produce a standout foal make GIVEN TERMS a classic cull. Will her pedigree be attractive enough to entice breeders?

Thoroughbred Pedigree in the News -- BRASS HAT

The Five-Cross Files — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:12:09 GMT

Brass Hat attempts a comeback. The 8-year-old son of Prized has been compared to the legendary John Henry -- both are grade I winning geldings who put in long careers, after all. But the two share more than that, and we look back to the damsire of two

Is This a Broodmare -- Howl At the Moon

The Five-Cross Files — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:15:34 GMT

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re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Longshot — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:19:23 GMT

Hard Spun will be a top sire. Always thought he would have been unbeatable at 1-1/8 mile on turf.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

sgillies — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:45:13 GMT

I'm going to add a stallion that I think will be a great value for breeders in the northeast (and might well be worth shipping in a mare or two for those of us elsewhere): Request for Parole (on SRO). See additional comments on this Judge T C son in my "Where Did They All Go?" post.

Where Did They All Go?

The Five-Cross Files — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:24:58 GMT

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re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Chris Taylor — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 03:32:56 GMT

I am thinking Street Sense

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Marc W — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:01:28 GMT

Not 1st year but Candy Ride is interesting-he certainly was a good horse with new blood

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

carlos — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:10:50 GMT

why hasn't anyone mentioned Pomeroy? he has all the attributes of being a great sire when compared to Distorted Humor & Elusive Quality. He won stakes at 7 furlongs at Saratoga; being out of a Seeking the Gold mare where Buckpasser shows up on both sides of the pedigree, it wouldn't be too farfetched to see him doing very well.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

carlos — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:10:47 GMT

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Dana — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:18:46 GMT

What about Lawyer Ron?

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

KAB — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:26:12 GMT

Value Stallions

CATIENUS-$15,000

PUT IT BACK-$7,500

ONE THAT WILL BREAK OUT THIS YEAR(2008/2009) WITH HIS TWO/THREE YEAR OLDS "MAYAKOVSKY"-$3,000.

I DO AGREE WITH SWEETSOUTHERNSAINT, GREAT PROGENY (FILLY & MARES ON TURF)

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Marc W — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:48:45 GMT

Another Idea for those picking new studs- although not first year ones.

TALK TO CLOCKERS -mostly regional ones that come from states that have breeding bonuses (NY,TX,LA,CA,ON, et.) and they get to see a great number of studs first year 2yr olds before they race.

As a former clocker I saw the first year 2yr olds of Vice Regent and Silver Deputy and although they didn't command high stud fees, and see top mares, when you saw their get train, I knew they were going to be good sires. On the flip side, one big Canadian outfit had shares in Sham, and another would be Mi Selecto who Stronach gave every chance to, they looked and trained very ordinarily and you knew they weren't going to do well in advance to their prodigy’s failures on the track.

Just a idea to ponder for those looking to take an edge and get in on the ground floor before the price goes way up.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Marc W — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:49:10 GMT

I am guessing a previous post went a little too far with my thoughts and got edited out, probably rightfully so. Here is a less detailed version of the same thoughts. It does bring valid thoughts/questions to light.

I am very happy finally the Unusual Heat finally got a mention as he is improving his mares considerably by Scott at the top of this blog. Does anybody wonder if he was seeing the mares that Giant Causeway is what he would have thrown by now?

I don't have a mare to bred but have many friends that do, but most don't have the big money to invest even in a $25K stud. If I had to advise I would look to a great race record like Invasor with the hope he could pass his talent on. A similar Couger2 (story- not breeding wise) flopped so it is a risk. He is not cheap, but if from classic American lines he would be at $100K plus fee. Seattle Slew had good bloodlines but really his sire although well bred never threw anything like him and didn't do that well. He was a great racehorse and a top sire, but he was only a 17K buy because of his breeding. I am a firm believer that on the whole race records are important more so than just bloodlines, of course there are exceptions (Viceregal/Vice Regent) but on the whole it seems to bare out. Northern Native was Northern Dancer's full brother but certainly didn't have his talent on track or the breeding shed.

On a budget I like Good Reward was a hard trier with a decent race record. Bred in the purple, and has a brother that is doing well if you are looking for a 1st year stallion not in the high $$$$ categories. I also like that he ran for Shug.

This brings up an unanswered questions that are rarely talked about in breeding-the people that had them during their racing careers. (Also why my original post was "rightly" excluded and not put up for mentioning a certain horse) No good answers is there, but it would influence who I would suggest breed to.

I have thought, maybe without good reason, been afraid to suggest breeding to certain horses when they change outfits and suddenly move up dramatically although the previous trainer might be well respected and established. Maybe some just need the right person/ trainer to unlock their potential.

I am from an era when trainers that raced a thousand plus horses (very few had that many horses to get near that figure of runners), mainly claimers didn't win at thirty percent clips. (I worked for Franky Merrill Jr. for a few years who was among the top claiming trainers in NA although he never had near that many horses or that high of winning percentage when topping the rankings) Rule of thumb, I like horses trained by a some that I feel comfortable with that have sent numerous horses to the breeding shed that have done well.

Sorry for my last few comments being thrown in the mix, but I think it is a genuine concern that should be addressed.

Others, not quite first year studs but somewhat unnoticed, I like "Sweetsouthernsaint" around for more than a few years at $3500 who is improving his mares and sends many a hard knocking racehorses. "Repent" who never really got to show how good he was on the track is off to a good start considering his mares seen and still is a bargain price.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Marc W — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:59:58 GMT

I am very happy finally the Unusual Heat finally got a mention as he is improving his mares considerably by Scott at the top of this blog. Can anybody wonder if he was seeing the mares that Giant Causeway is what he would have thrown by now?

On a budget I like Sweetsouthernsaint @ $3500 who is improving his mares and sends many a hard knocking racehorses. Repent who never really got to show how good he was on the track is off to a good start considering his mares seen. Good Reward was a trier with a decent race record bred in the purple and has a brother that is doing well if you are looking for a 1st year stallion not in the high $$$$ categories. I also like that he ran for Shug. This is an unanswered question that is rarely talked about in breeding-the people that had them during their racing careers. No good answers is there. Did they or did they not help?

I have thought, maybe without good reason been afraid to breed to certain trainers who suddenly move up their horses dramatically, like St Liam. (I truly hope I am wrong for even wondering out loud and he turns into a great stud) He is bred well enough and maybe he just needed the right person/ trainer to unlock his potential, but I like horses trained by a some that I feel comfortable with-Street Sense would fall into that category without knocking or casting aspersions on the the others which wouldn't be fair.

With that said, no aid legal or not, will make an average horse a superstar, which is lost on some. The talent must be there. I was a mediocre college runner, better than average, but if you gave me performance enhancing drugs, milkshake me, best trainers in the world, I was never going to be Olympic class, the talent must be there to reach the highest levels. It will though possibly make some tough losses in photos and close finishes wins.

Sorry for my last few paragraphs being thrown in the mix, but I think it is a genuine concern that should be addressed. The sad part is it is just unproven suspicions I have-only time will tell.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Evan N. — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:19:25 GMT

Hard Spun could handle any mare and will be the best stallion of his generation. 50,000 will look like a steal come 2011

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

MrElmero — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:48:02 GMT

Thanks Scott! Yes I do not plan on buying her right away. I am a research freak so I want to have all my guns loaded when I go to get her. I am going to reasearch and then decide which bloodlines I am looking for and then decide on the crosses that will produce what I am looking for. Then go get her based off of my research. To start I want to breed and sell the yearlings to try and get some income into my stable to help support it. As most people know the money is in the prospects not the champion racehorses. Once I can establish this I will start to keep some of my breeding projects and send them to the track. Thus commercial bloodlines are what I am going to start with. You have to offer a product consumers are going to want. I definately like your ideas and will include them into my own breeding theories I will be making for myslef. Thanks again!

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

MrElmero — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:52:33 GMT

Where do you all suggest for me to look for my hidden talent broodmare? Auctions? Private owner? Ads? Track? Cliaming races?

Scot's reply: Yes, yes, and yes. Know what you're looking for (her female family, race record, stakes competitor, sire line, inbreeding pattern, conformation, soundness, etc.). Do a lot of research. Do more research. Buy reports. Factor in what you want to do with the mare. Breed foals to sell as yearlings? You'll want commercial bloodlines. A mare to go to a particular stallion? Make sure they're compatible, both in conformation and in pedigree. You'll get a bunch of suggestions (other readers: that's a challenge!), but here's mine: find fillies/mares whose siblings have burned up the track but whose own race records were mid-range. You'll pay less and you'll be getting winning bloodlines.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

MrElmero — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 11:28:47 GMT

Great! Thanks for the advice! Do you recomend any readings on the the female families/broodmare theories? Books or publications?

Scot's reply: I'll tell you four of my favorites:

Matriarchs: Great Mares of the 20th Century, by Edward L. Bowen. Now out of print but easy to find on Amazon or eBay.
Inbreeding to Superior Females: Using the Rasmussen Factor to Produce Better Racehorses, by Rommy Faversham and Leon Rasmussen. Out of print and unfortunately rare/expensive. Beg, borrow, or steal -- this book is worth it.
Ellen Parker's Reines de Course Web site. Insights from an expert observer who is passionate about Thoroughbred female families.
The publication Owner-Breeder International. "Broodmares of Note" is a regular feature, and you'll also find a Broodmares Preview issue. (And I happen to know that this publication is about to get even better... more on that soon.)

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Carol — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 01:42:56 GMT

Jazil, what a pedigree, Latent Heat, a beautiful animal and English Channel, a tremendous racehorse, I think these three stallions will have a large impact on future racing

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

EmpireGiven21 — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 01:16:13 GMT

I agree No_Class!!! Thats why I asked the question, my opinion is this, I would rather breed to a horse who was second best or at least always showed up but again ALWAYS showed up then a horse who had breif moments of being great, Hard Spun will prove his point soon enough about being versatile! I am sending my mare to him next year, she is a 4 yr old A.P. Indy out of an Unbridled mare who is in the family of Fusaichi Pegasus, I really liked the lines together, hope it'll give us a good one!

And to the moderator:

Yes I agree $50,000 is alot, however, don't forget that EVERYTHING is going up in price, therefore, I'll follow that trend with the stallions haha!

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

Tammy — Fri, 30 May 2008 20:18:30 GMT

It also comes down to this, what do you want flashy win early 2 year old but may not have many top class runners beyond that, or nothing much at 2 but better and better as the runners age? Grass, Dirt? ETC? Not many sires sire it all.

Each of us might have a different idea in mind for picking our sire, Top 2 year old sire, Turf sire, Sprint Sire, Leading Sire. Personlly I pick for the long haul and am willing to let them get beyond 2 to judge the stallion.

I like versatility, that is why I like Dynaformer, and that is why I like Purim, you can go any way with him and it looks like he has a good book of mares. I think he was the best buy at stud for 2008.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

AIGUENSE — Fri, 30 May 2008 18:53:27 GMT

HI MR. ELMERO

MY ADVICE IS IF YOU ARE BEGIN TRY TO FIND ANY BRODDMARE THAT JUST PRODUCE ANY DESCENT AT TRACK AND ALSO NON VERY BAD AND A FLUENT PRODUCER BY YEAR.PEDIGREE CAN BE THE 2ND IMPORTANT FROM YOU IF YOU ARE BEGIN , I REPEAT.MAY BE CAN FIND ANY GOOD BROODMARE , GOOD PRODUCER WITH CHEAP AND MODEST STALLION, IF YOU WANT FOR SHE A BEST STALLION UPGRADING SHE SURE, CAN GET A BETTER FOAL.THE BEST BROODMARES DON'T EVER DOING THE BEST MARES AT TRACK AND WITH THE BEST FAMILIES, BUT TAKE A PROVEN GOOD ONE IS BEST IN MY OPINION.GOOD LUCK.

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

MrElmero — Fri, 30 May 2008 16:02:23 GMT

Hello

I have just found this blog and have found it very interesting and informative. I am interested in the breeding aspect and am looking for as much advice as I can. I have converted over from quarter horses racing a breeding barrel racers. I have always followed the Thoroughbred and loved them but never really could get financially involved. I have read almost every breeding book I can find to make my own assumptions on the best way to go. My first priority is to pick my mare. I know you can go to sales and find them but I am hoping to take a road less traveled. I want to find a diamond in the rough reject that has no produced where greatness has skipped a generation where with the right cross will pass it on to the next generation. Anyone have an ideas or advice for me?

Scot's reply: Welcome to Thoroughbreds! If you're looking for a hidden talent in a broodmare prospect, you'll find dozens of theories out there. My best advice is to research Thoroughbred female familes, study Thoroughbred pedigrees / five-cross pedigrees, look at strong / developing broodmare sires. One trend I've noticed is that often with broodmares, a mare that was not particuarly successful on the track herself, but whose sisters were strong/sound/fast stakes winners, will actually outproduce them. Good luck -- and keep checking back and take part in the Thoroughbred breeding discussions!

re: Pure Future: 2008 Incoming Sires

No_Class — Fri, 30 May 2008 10:25:40 GMT

For all the reasons that many people have already stated, "Hard Spun".

Great efforts on the track and hope to see it transpire in the breeding pen.

As far as this question goes from an earlier post?

"Would you rather breed to a stallion who was the best at only 1 thing or the stallion who was always second best at EVERYTHING?"

Think of Alydar ... second so many times, but a lovely sire.