Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

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Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study - The Five-Cross Files

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Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study - The Five-Cross Files

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Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study - The Five-Cross Files

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Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study - The Five-Cross Files

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Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study - The Five-Cross Files

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

jose y. quiros — Fri, 15 Oct 2010 03:31:32 GMT

it would be interesting to find out how successful RF's are if found on the x-factor line.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

JR - Adam Man — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:04:21 GMT

Thanks Scot!

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

JR - Adam Man — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:29:07 GMT

Did this horse get bought back? I don't see her sold.... thanks

Scot's reply: She was listed as an "out" at the sale. But ... her dam is going through the ring at the Keeneland November sale as hip 3870. Amber Myth will sell in foal to Master Command, meaning the carried foal has a 3 x 3 cross to Weekend Surprise!

Rachel Alexandra and the Rasmussen Factor

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:54:35 GMT

The superfilly's pedigree shows that 30% of ancestors in her first four generation are Rasmussen Factor matings.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

Archer — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 04:09:05 GMT

One of my favorite RF illustrations occurs in the pedigree of Ellen's Best, 7th dam of Rachel Alexandra. www.pedigreequery.com/ellens+best

Scot's reply: Great example! Following that line a bit further, we see her daughter Ro Dear with an RF to Selene ... Ro Dear's great-granddaugher Early Decision whose sire has an RF to Lavendula ... Early Decision's daughter Kim's Blues with an RF to Imperatrice ... Kim's Blues' daughter Lotta Kim with an RF to Pocohontas ... and of course Lotta Kim is the dam of phenom Rachel Alexandra.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

Pedigree Shelly — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:38:42 GMT

I find the Rasmussen Factor very interesting ! I've always been facinated with studying female families . I've always liked Weekend Surprise.What a broodmare! My filly is out of a Summer Squall mare plus she is inbred 4x5 to My Dear Girl ! I'm looking for a AP Indy line stallion to breed her to . That would give the resulting foal Weekend Surprise on the top and bottom. I was looking at the stallion Flatter ,by AP Indy out of a Mr. P mare . My filly is by Honour and Glory . I was also curious on how foal sharing agreements are arranged ? Sorry to go off the subject :) What do you think ??

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

jeff v — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:32:51 GMT

I've seen (SRO) in horses names in sales results.Please ,what does that mean?

Scot's reply: SRO stands for Stallion Register Online -- the industry's directory of Thoroughbred stallions.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

Kathy Hall — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:46:35 GMT

I am fasinated with all these theories and didn't know about the RF and True Nicks when I made a breeding decision for a mare that I found in the English Show Circuit. She had a tatoe and so I did the Tatoo ID and found her to be a Dr. Blum mare. So I got excited and went through the stud books to locate a stallion that also had Dr. Fager in the pedigree that wasn't too expensive as this mare was already 12 and had never had any foals. This being said I bred her to Cashel Castle who is double Mr. Prospector through Silver Ghost and goes to Dr. Fager through Quick Nurse Dam of Unreal Zeal by Mr. Prospector. My mare is Chestnut and Cashel Castle most of the time has produced Gr/R fillys but I got a drk bay colt. He is in the OBS yearling sale Hip # 690...Let me know how I did with this choice...Thanks Kathy

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

Kerby Chua — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:02:41 GMT

Just a point of clarification... When do you say its INBREEDING and when do you say its LINEBREEDING?

I am a believer of Rasmussen Factor breeding. The key there is really the linebreeding or inbreeding to a Blue Hen/Dominant mare...

Scot's reply: Thanks, Kerby. Thoroughbreds are considered inbred if the duplication occurs within five generations, line-bred if in earlier generations. We discussed Thoroughbred inbreeding notation a while back... it's worth a read!

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

Stephen — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:03:18 GMT

A filly that has a double RF to interesting mares is hip 4681.

While the first two dams are blank (first dam has never been bred to anything of quality until this filly and 2nd dam has been on an international journey of sorts), it's an extremely strong Canadian family that's anchored in this filly by a formula 1 RF to Ciboulette.

To further enforce the class of the pedigree, you also have an RF to the good producer Bebop, who's daughters produced Stop the Music, Hatchet Man, Buckaroo, etc.

The rest of the pedigree is sex balanced with Tom Fool coming thru Buckpasser and Bebopper.

This filly, if the physical is decent, could be quite the bargain. Her sire is a bit cold at the moment and the lack of produce immediately under her is going to deter a lot of buyers.

But she's worth a gamble at a small price in my opinion.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

TJLuvsTizs — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 04:17:32 GMT

Scott,

Would Hip 1328 fit this same description with the strong mare Crimson Saint? Terlingua on top and Alydariel on the bottom? I believe this would give a 4x4 to Crimson Saint.

Although the first dam has not been particularly impressive, they are changing the line in which she has been bred going away from El Corredor and switching to Bernstein. How much attention should this cross get?

Scot's reply: Yes, another great RF example. I've actually been looking for Terlingua inbreeding through daughters... she is about the same age as Weekend Surprise (1976 vs. 1980) so examples should become more numerous as time passes. ... The mare in this case, Weekend Dancer, produced a Mexican grade II winner with El Corredor, who is a Raise a Native/Northern Dancer cross with Secretariat as damsire of his grandsire. Bernstein is a Northern Dancer/Raise a Native cross with Secretariat as his sire's damsire. I suspect that this is a situation where the resulting foal's considerable inbreeding will give the bloodlines a chance to shine. I'm a proponent of close inbreeding when the bloodlines are solid but the individuals are themselves weak.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

sceptre — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:37:07 GMT

Interesting article, Scot.

For now, I'll offer but one observation-

Re-the "studies" that either prove, or disprove the value of Rasmussen Factor(s)- be mindful that the very acceptance of a theory (thus practiced) may tend to distort the findings of its relative success. As example-if one believes a theory's validity and puts it to practice then, all else equal, all other considerations will receive somewhat less weight-tending to "dilute" its potential positive impact (if indeed it had that potential + effect in reality). So, it would seem the best data to evaluate for a study on R.F. were those R.F. horses created before Rasmussen's observations were publicized. Similar could be said for "known" nicks. Would be curious to know if Alan factors this into his assessments/ponderings?

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

outsider — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:53:04 GMT

So with RF the idea is to duplicate sirelines and female lines that have been successful in the past and hope for a colt?

If the mating produces a filly then the superior genotype of the inbred mare is concentrated in an attempt to replicate the inbred mare?

When inbred to the grandsire's dam and result is a filly. What is RF about that?

Mr AP what is your opinion on the integrity of the Y chromosome? (Does the Y change through successive generations or not?)

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

LanceS — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:48:38 GMT

It would be interesting to go back one generation and look at Rasmussen factor crosses for Lassie Dear. I suspect there are a lot of them. I know in particular that Lanes End has really liked breeding their Indy mares to Lemon Drop Kid.

Scot's reply: I can confirm that even looking at just the female progeny of Weekend Surprise I found several cases of Lassie Dear inbreeding. You mentioned Lemon Drop Kid ... add in Deerhound and Black Mambo and Uncle Abbie and My Friend Max (discussed here!) and it's obvious that Lassie Dear's influence will abound in future generations!

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

JohnW — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:30:39 GMT

I read about the RF several years ago and after believing the results, decided to use it in my breeding decision.

I went one step further to find that inbreeding to BOTH parents of a superior horse really worked well. Charismatic is a prime example of inbreeding to both parents of Secretariat.

My entry in the sale (Hip 4841) is inbred twice using the RF. She has Somethingroyal 4x6 (with Bold Ruler 4x5) and Victoriana 5x5 (with Northern Dancer 4x5).

The other interesting fact is that Somethingroyal/Bold Ruler produced Secretariat. Neither the mare nor the stallion are chestnut, but the foal is chestnut. That leads me to believe the foal got the X factor.

The Victoriana/Northern Dancer line produced Vice Recent & Deputy Minister.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

Yamil — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:47:57 GMT

What is the meaning of " inbred 3 x 3"

Scot's reply: The quick answer is "the inbred influence is in the third generation of the sire's and dam's pedigrees." The better answer is "read this!"

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

steve from st louis — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:36:23 GMT

I glad my wife won't let me fund a small stable because my pedigree fetish would just get me in trouble. I remember what D. Wayne always said, "Fall in love with the individual before you see the pedigree page." Like picking stocks, picking yearlings is an art not a science. And I'm a terrible artist.

re: Thoroughbred Pedigree Review of KEESEP Hip #4233 -- A Rasmussen Factor Case Study

poormansracehorse — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:32:37 GMT

Just to clarify - hip# 4233 is a filly? It said colt in the introductory paragraph.

Fascinating stuff I must say. It would be great to follow this yearling and see if it's more successful than it's non RF sibs.

Scot's reply: Oops, I had a "she" where I meant "he." It's been fixed, thanks for pointing out the error!