Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Liveforthefoals — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:55:38 GMT

Glenn Craven's comments about Keeneland book placement specifically address my reason why, as a small breeder, I will take my own horses to a small sale like Fasig Tipton KY so I am not shuffled all the way back. When I've had a foal share and had to consign, I've used a fairly big outfit who took the horse to Keeneland, and got us into the first week, Book 2 being as far forward as I have ever got.

Keeneland September -- Names, Top Hits, and More

The Five-Cross Files — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:08:57 GMT

A few post-sale statistics now that the Keeneland September yearling auction has concluded.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Ravi Gowande — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 00:41:01 GMT

Yes in my opinion Names will be advantages. First in the nature other than Man thoroughbred is the only animal with names officially registered. The entire development of humans has been due to development of words, alphabets, communication, language. Thoroughbred is being imposed with names which has got its own potency. And that should make a differance in the sale price.

Pedigreestar

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

chip — Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:16:35 GMT

i'll let you know soon as i have two yearlings selling at timonium named "Maine" and "Aruba" and a weanling named "Rehoboth Beach" going to keeneland nov. i sold a nice named yearling last year who has been renamed so i've experienced it both ways. if you're not going to get great prices for them, at least enjoying the naming process.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

downhomesunset — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:31:59 GMT

I remember when AP Indy was racing-for a while his official name was Ap Indy. Someone was asleep at the wheel when that happened. His name appeared properly some time during the spring of his 3YO year. Does anyone else remember when?

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Tim G — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:07:31 GMT

per the BH, Vallenzeri renamed Take Control. Man that was the WORST move in sales history when he was bought back for 7.7 mil and SOLD for 1.9 mil a few months later.

Think that would have made me cry.

Now they're going to sell Azeri for sure and who bets they don't get 4.4 previous buy back for her?

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Tim G — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:51:56 GMT

p.s. Color Can Run, I just thought your handle was catchy and maybe meant you bred QH Paints or something.

I used to be into the QH's and there have been some great paint runners of late at Los Al.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Tim G — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:49:49 GMT

Color can run. Just wondering, saw someone has a hip # in Book 7, do you have anything in this sale?

Same as I asked Scot.

Scot I remember that one you had last sale.

Some of the sales lately have reflected the economy and the cost of finishing them and getting them to the track and running. Buyers have to be more selective than ever before. Painful for some who would like to buy any beautiful, athletic animal.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Tom G — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:50:09 GMT

You obviously have too much time on your hands.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Karen — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 18:17:59 GMT

She may have no commercial appeal, but I like the pedigree (Toolighttoquit x Salambria). How's she look? Do you have links to pictures? Good luck with her!

Scot's reply: Thanks, Karen. "Helen" is typical of the Aspidistra line -- fine and athletic with delicate features, a long back, and an Araby head with crested neck. She was a late foal (mid-May 2008) and is on the small side even for her age, though everything points to her having a growth spurt somewhere along the line. Right now she's getting over a double abscess in one foot -- an uncomfortable couple of weeks! I'll post some new pictures of my girls soon.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

mz — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:08:02 GMT

So Scot: does this mean you are one of those "doing it for the love of the sport" people?

We need more of you and less of the corporate guys.

If/when I win the lottery, I want to be just like you and breed what I like from what I like and then WIN THE CLASSIC anyways. (I like dreaming instead of working)

p.s. who's the "no commercial appeal" filly?

Scot's reply: Thanks, Mz. The filly that my mare was carrying when I bought her is hampered by the state breeding programs: she's by the Louisiana stallion Toolighttoquit but she was foaled in Kentucky and is ineligible for incentives from either state, hence the lack of appeal to many buyers. She's out of Salambria (who I've discussed here).

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Color Can Run — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:16:34 GMT

Yes Tim G I am.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Bellwether — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:54:34 GMT

SEEMS SOE JOE...

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Tim G — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 02:13:11 GMT

Scot are you selling this year?

Color Can Run, curious. Are you a TB race horse breeder/consignor?

Scot's reply: Hi, Tim. No sales for my two. One lacks commercial appeal (I purchased her in utero when one of my favorite mares became available) and I will try to bring her along myself. The other is a full sister to a colt that I sold/practically gave away at Keeneland last year... just not what the bidders were looking for.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Color Can Run — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 23:59:11 GMT

Hello, What was wrong with the comments I made?

Scot's reply: Ha! :-) Nothing -- they just came while I was at the barn working my two yearlings! (All comments are now published.)

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Tim G — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:43:06 GMT

I think a LOT of thought is put into naming a TB race horse, by most top end buyers and bargain hunters alike.

Some of us even reserve a name, just waiting for the 'right' colt/filly. Since it's on a one year basis we need to find the right one ASAP.

Also it's not 'easy' to name a TB race horse. The limitation of characters and the (more recently remiss) guidelines on allowable names. They have more rules than, well you know the rest of it.

As far as changing the name of a horse? Like I said above the letter of the rule is that "a foal's name may be changed at any time prior to starting in its first race. Ordinarily, no name change will be permitted after a horse has started in its first race or has been used for breeding purposes. However, in the event a name must be changed after a horse has started in its first race, both the old and new names should be used until the horse has raced three times following the name change."

What boggles me are the names where you have to look for the (IRE) etc behind their names to figure out they're different animals.

Lots of people 'look' at the different books, never know when you'll get a Real Quiet in a book 7 etc. Still on the whole? What's the % of horses from those later books that go on to great success?

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Color Can Run — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:34:59 GMT

I also have to comment on the writer's opinion. "A yearling is (better) if consigned by a big name? You've got to be kidding! How about stating the truth which is the only owners that use consigners are those who 1. don't know how to get a yearling fit for sale 2. don't have the time or help to do it themselves, so pay to have it done 3. the very wealthy that would not be caught doing labor in a barn getting their own ready for a sale. Why is it if a breeder small or medium can get their own ready for a sale, they don't have "status" and therefore don't get the early books? Isn't the racing industry trying to ATTRACT new owners/breeders? Instead of shoving them to the end, why don't they flip the books and give the small owner/breeders the beginning of the sale, where is the fairness?? Another comment made is that it's not what you know, but who you know. Who cares "who knows who" I don't. Isn't the sale about the individual prospects and what the owner/breeder brought that day and how good or bad of a job they did raising the yearling and what shape they are in? Lastly, if the owner doesn't have enough pride or know how to name a horse, fine leave it unnamed. If I'm waiting 2 years to get a foal to a sale, I'm sure gonna think of a great name for it. That's the fun part! If I don't like a name, I'll change it. Unnamed to me means, I don't really give a flip. Instead of doing a poll on this silly topic, why don't they go back and see which 1/2 of the books in years past, sold more horses that earned

more money running? I'd sure gamble it wasn't always the first books that won more. Why not run articles in the BH on a rugular basis about new owners or breeders, no matter how small. I'd actually like to hear about them instead of the same old highlights "Big Brown cantered at home today, or someone's surgery went well or bad" Bring something new for us to read please.

Scot's reply: Thanks for your comments, Color Can Run. Please reread my comments and you'll see I never said anything about yearlings being better if offered by prominent consignors -- I stated that they tend to bring higher prices. As for your lament that status plays a role in Thoroughbred sales -- the point I was trying to make with my opening sentence! -- it's a fact of life in every industry, without exception. The best I can offer is that knowledge is power, so noticing seemingly unimportant qualities that affect value is a tool you can use to your advantage. ... As for studies that track the race performance of Keeneland September yearlings by their session/book, yup, we do that. It's in the August issue of The Blood-Horse MarketWatch.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Kevin — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:07:45 GMT

It is impossible to know the complete multitude of reasons that cause a buyer to purchase a horse.

I personally have always been of the belief that a buyer who uses the naming of a horse in their overall reasoning does so with the faith/hope that a named horse might have been shown a higher standard of individual care over an unnamed horse. i.e. The act of naming being the proof for such faith/hope.

As for myself, named or unnamed is never a factor pro or con. If named, it can be changed. My understanding is that to change a name is only unlucky if the horse has already raced. Not saying I believe that but, have never done that, and never would, I mean we all need luck, and why tempt fate.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

cah — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:31:01 GMT

Thank you so much for your comment Ladyclever!!!!

My yearling is the very first hip # in book seven (4494). His page is almost all graded black-type and he is by a solid race-horse who himself is from a very, very solid dam line. He is a smart individual with a great walk and almost flawless conformation. It exasperates me on a regular basis how lesser individuals are moved up in the catalogs just because of who their father might be. They are also in alphabetical order as far as the dam's names are concerned. It's just luck-of-the-draw where they start with each catalog.

I am not a greedy person but my colt certainly deserves much consideration and I hope there are some astute horsemen/women there to appreciate him.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Ladyclever — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:49:28 GMT

Naming a yearling should have no significant effect on selling price -- names can be changed and the astute buyer is looking at the horse -- not the name. However, I would like to take this opportunity to address the statement made by you (and similar statements made by other journalists) that "Conformation and catalog page usually combine to determine whether a horse goes in Book One or Book Six at the Keeneland September sale". This statement is a BIG misconception by many segments of the industry. Keeneland DOES NOT look at all the yearlings for conformation -- in fact, they look at virtually nothing beyond Book 2. Instead, they rely on the opinion of the large consignors. These consignors, typically, act with prejudice by giving preferential catalog placement to their more 'influential' clients. Small consignors or small breeders invariably find themselves at the end of the Sale even though they may have an outstanding physical specimen with a good Black-Type pedigree. Just look at Book 7 of this years' Keeneland Sale and the pedigrees -- and keep in mind that Keeneland looked at none of them for conformation ---- This system of 'Good Ol' Boys' preferential cataloging coupled with the misconception that only poorly bred and/or poorly conformed individuals are available towards the end of the Sale are ruining the small breeder -- and, eventually, this unfair system will collapse the Sales industry -- It cannot survive without the myriad of small breeders that are rapidly declining in number. Keeneland needs to 'wake-up' before it's too late....

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Glenn Craven — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:46:14 GMT

By my count, from the 418 yearlings in Book 1, 12 are named for just 2.9 percent.

From the final day, Book 7, out of 695 foals, 45 are named, for 6.5 percent.

So for those with the perception that the better-bred foals, earlier in the sale, are the ones most likely to already be named, that certainly isn't the case this year. In fact, the foals in the last book of the sale -- this year at least -- are more than twice as likely to be named as those in the earliest book.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

mz — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:30:15 GMT

Avalon: I think I remember that Jim Henson (or his company) actually sued or threatened to sue unless the owners of Fozzie Bear changed his name. And wasn't it changed to Bold Executive or something like that (and not Regal Intention)? Wasn't he a Bold Ruckus colt and a really good 2YO of his year?

Anyways, after the change I always got confused about which Bold Ruckus colt had his name changed (and obviously, I still am).

So: if someone threatens to sue you for trademark infringement, is that another exception to the name change after racing rule?

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

Patty — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:22:46 GMT

I've always dreamed of naming horses and now that I am a breeder I am thrilled to do so. Everyone we know is involved in the naming process. Many horses are given horrid names so I want my babies to at least have a shot at a great name. If the new owner changes it so be it. Also it's great for a baby to learn his or her name early instead of by the mares name or colt or filly. If the horse doesn't sell and I race them then I got the name I wanted and didn't lose it by waiting to see if the horse sold later. I also put way more thought into the names than I believe most people ever will.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

John — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:41:35 GMT

I have been selling yearlings for a few years now, and I always figured the person paying money for my horse earned the right to name it. That being said, some of the names they have come up with have been a bit disappointing, but it is the buyer's right. After all, they shelled out the 20,30, 100 thousand bucks.

With regards to sale results, I want to say I recall a lot more named horses earlier in the books, which would skew the results significantly. I have not gone back and checked, however.

re: Are Names an Advantage at Yearling Sales?

BGB — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 02:37:30 GMT

A problem with this theory. Are the named horses evenly valued? If all 10 named horses occur in Book 1, of course their average is likely to be higher than the gross average of the sale. It is inappropriate to consider the name an advantage or disadvantage unless you compare it to all horses of similar value, not just "all unnamed horses."