On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

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On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse - The Five-Cross Files

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

john joseph peter skowronski jr — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:14:17 GMT

dear bloodhorse,

i john skowronski,very elatead,rachael alexandra her saratoga whitney,dead or alive best female, ever to come into extistance solar system,blue planet one moon.horse of the year ever.

thank you

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re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Herb — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:21:35 GMT

It would be highly imprudent to rely on the current state of genetic research to conclude that we know everything we need to knew about heredity and thereby conclude that there will be no genetic loss should we let the Byerley or Godolphin/Man O’War or even the Darley/Ribot, or Darley/Princequillo sire lines become extinct without repercussions to the breed. The current state of genetic research is incomplete to say the least particularly on matters such as prepotency, including not only among sires but also in maternal lines. If these sire lines become extinct, there will be no return. I am not willing to bet in favor of letting them go. It is interesting to note that as the American breeders have become virtually entirely enmeshed in the Darley/Phalaris/Nearco lines, particularly those carried on by Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer, over the last twenty-five years, American races have become shorter and shorter (Belmont Park is overrun with boring 6f races on turf and dirt and races on the dirt and even now the turf are very rarely longer than 1 1/16mi), times have really not improved, and the breed is weaker.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Ann in Lexington — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:19:27 GMT

MZ, the influence of ALL of the early stallions is still here, in the bloodlines of their descendants. The sireline is no more than a traditional surname. Even if a surname died out because a man had only daughters, he still has descendants. Sirelines can be an interesting study as a historical subject (did you know that the male line of the French star Perth was still active in Chile in the 1960s?), but too many people give it unjustifiable importance. All of this discussion of sirelines distracts people from the real meat of the pedigree.

Consider: physically, Northern Dancer was more a Hyperion type than a Pharos type, and Hyperion was more like his tiny dam Selene than his sire Gainsborough. The waning of Hyperion's male line in the US doesn't mean that his influence is gone; it has expanded until it is part of the basic structure of the breed.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

louis finochio — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:13:07 GMT

Nice to have my views on the unsoundness & re-shaping of the breed thru Inbreeding. Long live those NP sire lines the catalyst for soundness that breed strong bone individuals.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

mz — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:25:56 GMT

Ann In Lexington: when we talk about "sire lines" we aren't strictly speaking talking about (scientific) genetics. We're talking about keeping a line alive coming down directly -- in the way we keep pedigree information -- from a particular sire.

Everyone who studies pedigrees knows that the influences from non-direct, non-tail-male lines are important. Many times, for example, whenever we talk about grays in the thoroughbred population, we know it comes down from the Alcock Arabian (I think I'm spelling it right) who is NOT one of the direct, tail-male founders of the breed.

Give us a bit of a break, OK?

Especially when we're talking about "losing" Herod and Matchem from North America. I think it's a wonderful thing that we are still worried about storied horses from the 1600's and 1700's.

In all the talk about Rachel Alexandra, etc., THAT is true greatness! Remembering horses from centuries ago.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Ann in Lexington — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 00:14:44 GMT

Please stop worrying about what sireline horses are from. The only genetic material that travels unchanged (barring mutation) on the sireline is the Y chromosome, which carries almost no characteristics not connected to turning the default female embryo into a male. With all other characteristics there is a reshuffling of genes in every generation, some coming from the dam and some from the sire. If a horse is inbred 3x2 to Blue Larkspur, that stallion is likely to have more influence on his physical characteristics than a tail-male ancestor 5 or 6 generations back. Learn some genetics, people.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Race Fan San — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 07:59:31 GMT

You write: 'The Thoroughbred foundation sire Byerly Turk is correctly spelled thusly. The omission of the penultimate "e" from the name of Captain Robert Byerley, for whom the horse was called, was apparently an error of the early General Stud Book.'

Umm, if that spelling was an error then, it's still an error now, isn't it? I don't see how mere repetition can make it "correct".

"Byerly" isn't even a consistent spelling in the early racing calendars, upon which the first volumes of the GSB were largely based. Lord Godolphin, for example, raced a "Bireley Gelding".

In the 18th century, spelling was not standardized, so people simply wrote what they heard -- or what they thought they heard. Even the titles of noblemen were garbled, and I can think of at least one instance in which a man signed his own surname in two different ways.

The only remedy I can see for this genealogist's nightmare is to make it a point to use the modern spelling whenever it can be determined. (At the very least, this will make Googling easier.) To me, therefore, the horse is -- and should be -- Byerley's Turk.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Herb — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:15:10 GMT

Just for some historical perspective: the great runners and sires of the mid 19th century in America were principally Byerley-Herod line horses: the line from Byerley descendant Boston started with the pearless Lexington who sired the following greats: nevr defeated Asteroid , Kentucky , Daniel Boone , the immortal Duke of Magenta who won both the Preakness and Belmont Stakes, General Duke and the immortal Harry Bassett who each won the Belmont Stakes, Shirley and the great Tom Ochiltree who each won the Preakness Stakes, and many others.

The Byerley Turk line is even the topsire line of Justin Morgan, the founder of a great and talented American breed, the Morgan.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Herb — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:55:10 GMT

The Byerley Turk/Herod modern line has included great speed and endurance. Ahonoora, the mainspring of what remains, was himself an excellent sprinter but sired both speed and endurance (Dr. Devious, winner of the Epsom Derby and now an Italian sire) Indian Ridge, a sprinter and the most productive siring son of Ahonoora, has sired tremendous speed as confirmed by his 2 Breeders’ Cup Mile winning offspring, Ridgewood Pearl and Domedriver, and his son, Indian Haven, winner of the Irish 2000 Guineas.

Indian Ridge sired 77 stake winners, including 9 Group 1. He was also sire of the dam of Wilko, winner of a Breeder's Cup Juvenile. With all of this masive achievement and speed, I ask: why no sons of Indian Ridge as sires in Kentucky? Why instead endless sons of Storm Cat and countless sires in the Mr. Prospector /Raise a Native/Native Dancer/Phalaris line? Were the Kentucky breeders turned off by the fact that Indian Ridge’s son, Definite Article, sired Vinnie Roe, four time winner of the Irish St. Leger and, across the world, 2nd in the 2004 Melbourne Cup? (Like Kelso, Vinnie Roe won from 7 f to 2 miles but is relegated to being a National Hunt (steeplechase/hurdles) sire at Coolmore Ireland.) Does the existence of stamina in the modern Byerley/Herod line in Europe along with great speed turn them off?

Congratulations to Kingsgate Stud in Canada and the Texas breeder for importing sons of Indian Ridge. I really hope that they get a real chance for success for thinking outside of the tiny box our major US breeders are in.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Pedigree Shelly — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:22:11 GMT

Replying to subk I never implied that ALL horses from that line are difficult to handle , but I do recall a Stallion Manager from Gainesway Farm in a BLood Horse article recalling some of the stallions he had handled through the years . He spoke of a stallion named Faraway Son >By Ambiopoise by Ambiorix as one df the most difficult Stallions he has ever been around !I've also read about this trait in other books !

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Pedigree Shelly — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:40:19 GMT

This comment was to Wally.He was looking for a solid stallion without inbreeding,Well how about Invasor (Arg) ? He won six consective Grade 1 races.not to mention the Breeders Cup Classic also !He (Invasor) has a Dosage Index of 1.77 which is a great indicator of stamina ! He is by Candy Stripes (Blushing Groom ) who is the broodmare sire of the excellent young sire Candy Ride (Arg) I think Invasor has a good chance being a nice sire !

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

wally — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 19:24:55 GMT

WorksopLad: What do you mean when you say there is no genetic diversity? Is that a a bad thing?

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

WorksopLad — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:33:04 GMT

Einstein is from the Phalaris line. No genetic diversity there.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

subk — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:46:24 GMT

"Speaking of the Herod line, My father had a horse that was inbred to Tourbillon 5x4 through Ambiorix . I have read that horses from this line were notably ill-tempered !" by Pedigree Shelly

I have a purpose-bred sport TB with Ambiorix in the 5th, two Ambiorix daughters in the 5th, a grand daughter in the 5th, plus My Babu (Tourbilion line as well) in the 5th. He has a fantastic temparment, is smart and extremely trainable.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Karen in Indiana — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:10:13 GMT

Next year when he's retired to stud - Einstein.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

downhomesunset — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:31:43 GMT

More research on Timor has led to some intersting finds. Timor sired Pronto(b, 1955,3 time leading stallion) who begat Practicante(b,1966). He was HOY in Argentina,leading sire in'78,'81 and '82 and seven time leading broodmare sire. He sired HOY of 1982 Clorhidratante, who stood at stud, but I cannot find any other info than that on him. Pronto also sired Chile's 3 time leading sire Balconaje(ARG). A stallion named Sheet Anchor (Ambiorix-Anchors Aweigh) led the sire list and sired another leader, Mountdrago. So it appears that the line is available if breeders wish to utilise it......I may have more later:)

Scot's reply: Great info! Thanks for sharing.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

wally — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:08:56 GMT

Which would be the most durable sires around with the least amount of inbreeeding?

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:42:30 GMT

Speaking of the Herod line,My father had a horse that was inbred to Tourbillon 5x4 through Ambiorix . I have read that horses from this line were notably ill-tempered ! This horse was no exception !

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Nancy — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:29:03 GMT

I agree with Herb's comments above. I won't repeat them, as he said it so well.

Week after week for the past 3-4 yrs. I have read very thoughtful letters by Blood-Horse readers regarding their concern for the breeding, racing, doping, life threatening injuries, how racing can cure itself of its ills, and why a centralized governing body would benefit the health and welfare of the horses, and thereby enhancing horseracing as a legitmate and engaging sport for existing fans and growing the base. Their words of gold are lost on powerful people who control the entire industry. As long as they have what they want - power, money, prestige - let the fans of the sport be damned!!!

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

mike — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:07:45 GMT

Breeders ought to try techniques common in other domestic species, where inbreeding and even father-daughter matings have been practised. These close breedings achieved new, stable lines, with observable qualities that carried on through new generations. When the resultant closely-related individuals were bred outside the inbred lines, the offspring may well carry on the genetic qualities desired. Exactly what qulities are thought to reside in the Byerly Turk/Herod line that ought to be preserved? Without specific goals, yearning for another line within the Thoroughbred may be merely quixotic. Breeders do seem rooted to arcane and antique notions of inheritance. What attributes are inherent within this now rare line ought to be preserved?

By the way, My Memoirs had no chance at stud, as he was bred to many mares which differed from him genetically and phenotypically, and were thus improbable to pass on his likeness and ability. His get also were wasted in speed events rather than exploiting his ability to run a route. This economic choice has probably relegated most stallions with alternative lines to the same fate, obscurity and extinction.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Pedigree Shelly — Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:19:33 GMT

What an excellent topic ! I wish breeders would import a decent stallion from the Herod line from Europe ! Today's Thoroughbred is too saturated with Eclipse ! The only real notable horses recently from the Herod line ,Precisionist and Arcangues {Breeders Cup Winners] Seemed to have terrible luck at beeing Stallions ! I'm afraid this male line may become extinct ! At least in North America.

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re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

HorseFirst — Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:33:35 GMT

There may very well be little of out cross horses left if shuttling stallions continues.

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

downhomesunset — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:46:36 GMT

On the pedigree online I traced several tail male stallions by Timor, who's inferred obscurity could be explained by the fact that he was exported to Argentina...

re: On Herod and Matchem but not Eclipse

Herb — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:42:19 GMT

Don’t look to the dams for genetic diversity. Proliferation and concentrated use of Phalaris/Nearco line stallions has and will continue to have an affect on dams. The vast majority of horses bred in the US today are by Nearco line stallions out of dams sired by Nearco line stallions. We still have some Matchem line stallions, and older American Darley Arabian lines through Holy Bull and, to a lesser extent, through Broad Brush to avoid decimation of genetic diversity but I have no faith that American breeders and English and Irish breeders (who are besotten with the Nearco line through Northern Dancer and Sadler’s Wells) will embrace it.

In the U.S., it is abundantly clear that Tiznow, a Godolphin Arabian/Matchem line sire (the Godolphin’s only surviving sire line), is the greatest sire of older classic distance horses. No other sire can boast the collective likes of Captain John, Well Armed, Informed, and Bullsbay but his get hardly draw the money that the Nearco/Northern Dancer, Nearco/Nasrullah and Nearco/Native Dancer/Raise A Native lines receive. But his exceptionally strong horses apparently tend to develop later as he did as racehorse, and he will not draw the attention he richly deserves from the get rich quick American culture.

I suspect that well intentioned columns such as the above in the Booldhorse will not have any impact on the early speed, early retirement, and shorter distance mentality of most American breeders and that they will back the thoroughbred into a genetic disaster.