Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

NIJINSKYTOM — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:00:28 GMT

Maybe the best way to get breeding back on track is for there to be bonuses in the breeders cup and triple crown races for homebreds!

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

sherpa — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:09:57 GMT

Thanks, Kaydee815!

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Kaydee815 — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:37:44 GMT

Sherpa, Kris S has at least two sons at stud in the US: Action This Day and Rock Hard Ten.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

sherpa — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:36:45 GMT

It seems to me that one major stallion influence can be seen in the BC, and that is Kris S - damsire of both Zenyatta and Life Is Sweet. Does Kris S have any other sons at stud besides Arch?

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

oldgraymare — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:18:56 GMT

Don't know much about Beyer Numbers etc. but I'd like to see some endurance and long distance back on OUR side of the pond.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Pedigree Shelly — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:14:23 GMT

Thanks Scot for correcting my mistake ! I did mean to say Roberto 4s x 4d ! It's been a long day :)

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:19:05 GMT

I ran a hypothetical mating for a Giant's Causeway -Zenyatta foal, I like the results. The foal would have a DI of 1.80 and a CD of 0.50 which would indicate stamina of course . I especially like the fact that the resulting foal would be inbred to the stamina influence Roberto 4s x 5d !

Scot's reply: That does make a fascinating cross. I believe Roberto actually would show up 4s x 4D, however -- and add Halo at 5s x 5d.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:53:19 GMT

I have a strong feeling that Zenyatta will go to Giant's Causeway for the 2010 season !

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Susan — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:53:11 GMT

If I had a Jockey Club mare, I'd breed her to Einstein in a heartbeat! For the longest time, I thought he must be a gelding, since he was still racing at his age! I bet he throws some durable babies. I hope he doesn't have fertility problems.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

pNewmarket — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:26:55 GMT

I've not looked into the pedigrees in great detail, but Dylan Thomas could be a good match for Zenyatta. As a son of Danehill it can replicate the Street Cry/Danehill cross that produced this year's Melbourne Cup winner Shocking (by Street Cry out of a Danehill mare).

Karen in Indiana, if I wanted to be pedantic I could point out that it is actually a case that most US horses have European-line pedigrees as the Thoroughbred was "created" over here ;)

But in all seriousness the training of the horses is the most crucial part. Our horses are not timed in their workouts; most work on uphill gallops; medication is rarely used (I'm not daft enough to suggest it isn't used at all), etc.

The style of racing in the US is also a factor - hell for leather straight out of the gate. Most European races are run at a steady pace with the speed gradually getting faster towards the finish. Track records and fast times in races are not really a big deal over here - an average horse can break a track record in the right conditions - we are more concerned about the style in which a horse wins (I don't necessarily mean the number of lengths, some horses like the great Sea the Stars never did more than he had to to win) and the quality of the opposition beaten.

Overall, what the American breeding industry needs are some good old fashioned German horses to stud - they'll inject some stamina and stoutness into the US Thoroughbred!

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Kaydee815 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:36:26 GMT

You know, with her sire descended from Mr. Prospector, wouldn't a stallion like Tiznow match well with Zenyatta? Of the horses in the classic this year, have to say I like Colonel John the most as a stallion, esp. if they matched him and Zenyatta.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

x cross — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:25:20 GMT

Great Canadian horses: Glorious Song (EP Taylor), of course Northern Dancer (EP Taylor, Nijinsky II (EP Taylor), Vice Regent, Nearctic, Vicereagal, The Minstrel...all EP Taylor....

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:22:57 GMT

sorry scott i might have went over the word limit !

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:19:40 GMT

t age five going 1 1/4 miles .I also like the fact that he had raced from ages two through five which indicates durability . I think he fits my mare well because Honour and Glory seems to sire horses that start well early and seem to fizzle out later , like Keyed Entry for instance .I have'nt made a decision yet for 2010. Hill n'Dale called and said my mare was an A++ for El Corredor ! He's just a little pricey for right now .I'll weigh my options and see what feels right ! Thanks for your insight :)

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

RachelSatterfield — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:03:04 GMT

Nancyb...don't worry about the stupidity. When the president of the NTRA calls the Breeders Cup Classic the

"richest race in the world" which he did in an article yesterday, pretty much you just have to ignore anything anyone says.

And as for Canadians this year, Cloudy's Knight gave a performance in the Marathon anyone should be proud of. He impressed me. As for Careless Jewel, I wonder if she'll come out of the race with an injury. The way she shortened stride almost instantly makes me wonder, it didn't seem like she was tiring, she just totally stopped (and we know she doesn't have problems with distance).

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Lorenzo — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:36:00 GMT

Which Breeders Cup winner is a good match for my French Deputy mare, Fappiano is the Dam sire

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

CRob87 — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:24:03 GMT

Nancyb:

I've always loved Canadian breds.

But, it seems as though (Most) of their greats came from the same Family lines like No Class, Fanfreluche and Ballade.

Or even more so from the great Sam-Son farm.

And sadly if i've heard correctly will be Dispersing soon ??? Which means that there might be less greats from Canada for a while ???

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Nancyb — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:29:37 GMT

I loved the Breeder's Cup but I am so angry that I could spit horseshoe nails.Will someone please explain to me how it was - the world against the USA? Canada was there and is part of North America - lumped with the world or European invaders. Please - someone try to correct this insulting slight. Does anyone remember Northern Dancer? Dance Smartly? and so many more!

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Stan — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:15:54 GMT

Karen in Indiana is correct, it is not only the pedigree, it is how these horses are managed and conditioned to go the distance.

The speed cowboys gravitate toward speedballs from unsound parents. Unsoundness from Storm Cat and Mr. P. doesn't bother them, they drill, race, break then toss early. They probably mistake class for precocity or can't stand to wait for a talented horse to mature and race safely at 4 and 5. Imagine their waiting until they are 5! Most of their horses are done at two.

Most European trainers are off stop-watches and drugs. Horses are offered longer time out to relax on quiet grounds and softer surfaces. Most European trainers believe in "listening" to what their horses tell them. More Euro owners are sportsmen in racing for the right reasons, willing to rest their horses as needed instead of drugging them to keep going when they shouldn't.

I believe that Zenyatta could run two miles, she was just getting into gear at the finish line and hardly blowing after the race.

If Zenyatta had been given to a speed cowboy trainer she would have been crippled or dead at two. Thank God she was bought by classy, patient and compassionate owners, given to a top, classy, compassionate trainer without ego, who always put the horses first, and his jockey Mike Smith is a top-class jockey who didn't find the need to hit Zenyatta more than the bare minimum, didn't need to win by over 20 lengths and wasting his mare like Calvin Borel did with Rachel Alexandra including once after whipping her over 20 times.

Were all BC races ridden by jockeys wearing cushion whips?

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

easy goer — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:48:27 GMT

What about Einstein as an interesting stallion prospect? Talk about versatile, fast, and durable!!!! I bet this dude is going to be overlooked in the breeding shed even though he is so rich in qualities that American thoroughbreds often lack!

Scot's reply: Einstein (BRZ) would have had more fanfare as a stallion prospect if he'd pulled out a place or show in the Breeders' Cup Classic (gr. I), but his multiple grade I wins and his ability to compete on dirt and synthetics as well as his favored turf are all highly desirable characteristics in a stallion. It's unfair but the three letters "BRZ" and "ARG" following a stallion's name usually aren't prized in North America. Spend a Buck's lack of sire sons here in the U.S. is also a disadvantage for marketing. All that said, I have a feeling Einstein's first crops will be tremendously rewarding for those mare owners who take a chance on him -- and Adena Springs is one of the best places for a breed-to-race stallion to enter stud duty.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Whatever — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:54:43 GMT

Zenyatta and Rock of Gilbraltor would produce a nice runner. She should be bred to a European stallion just to ensure complete soundness of her offspring. She herself has remained sound--but who knows if she had ailments here and there because of her size. Big horses tend to suffer alot from tendon and ligament problems so breeding her to a sound european stallion hopefully will result in a well balanced, sound individual. I think the european stallions are more sound.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

da3hoss — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:45:40 GMT

Man of Iron was bought before the race by unnamed foreign connections.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Karen in Indiana — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:57:31 GMT

I really have questions if bloodlines get blamed more than they should for stamina issues and maybe more of it rests on training methods. It just doesn't make sense to think that a horse kept in a stall for 20+ hours a day is going to have a lot of stamina. Plus, a lot of European horses have American bloodlines, yet they don't show the same stamina problems we see here. The main difference being training methods. Horses there are out working longer over more varied terrain and in groups.

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

BELLWETHER — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:21:22 GMT

MY COmPUTER IS A MESS THIS AM...TO FINISH LAST...ALL NET WORKS TVG HRTV NEED TO SHOW COMPLETE RACING RESULTS RITE AFTER R SOON THERE AFTER EVERY RACE FORE OUR FANS...CALLED SA EARLY SAT.AM & SPOKE WITH STEWART & THEY AGREED & THEY PASSED IT ON TO ESPN ALSO...PEOPLE WANT TO NOE WHERE THEIR HORSE FINISHED...ALL OF EM!!!!...

re: Dearth of 2010 Stallion Prospects From Breeders' Cup 2009 Champs

Greg R. — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:08:00 GMT

If we had A I it would matter none where they stand. My group has mares with both domestic and Euro families. Personally I would prefer to breed to Euro stamina.. instead of crippled Quarter horses they call Thoroughbreds.