Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

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Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore? - The Five-Cross Files

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

GREG — Sun, 12 Dec 2010 09:54:14 GMT

one word! SIPHON!!!!!!!!

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Linda — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 03:40:47 GMT

Say Florida Sandy, who is the leading money-earner of NY breds, and ran 98 races (!!) in his career (AND retired sound) is standing in NY for a pittance stud fee of $3,000. Mr. Prospector mares should be lining up in DROVES at his door in hopes that his durability, and not their Native Dancer glass ankles, will be passed down to their progeny. Also, I watched a daughter of K One King charge down the stretch at Lone Star Park a few months ago, and thought, bet she doesn't just limp off to be a broodmare after a mere handful of races. Unless we start breeding to what little is left of the true "Iron Horse," we will lose what little is left of our remaining fan base in the industry. I hold my breath every time a N/N Dancer-saturated horse starts a race, praying another Eight Belles (Raise A Gimpy Native) won't come back to haunt us. We have Giacomo, AP Indy,First Dude and a handful like them...we need more! Breeders, unless you heed this and breed more sturdy stock, you are not only giving the anti-racing/PETA crowd the store, but you are sowing the seeds of your own demise. Listen before it's too late, please!

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

DONNA KEEN — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:55:18 GMT

I also have his young son out of a Damascas Mare, Won Ton Win.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

DONNA KEEN — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:52:46 GMT

I have a son of Indian Ridge standing in Texas named Final Row, is he what you are looking for?

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Alfonso — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:11:15 GMT

Take a look at the Brazilian good sire Siphon:

www.pedigreequery.com/siphon

In germany apart from Monsun, Surumu and so on, there is a very good sire called Kallisto, which was sent to Hungary but has been taken back to Germany as from a very small crop he has delivered several graded horses; www.pedigreequery.com/kallisto

Here in Spain we have Wagon Master (sire of 5 G1 winners): www.pedigreequery.com/wagon+master

Federal Trial is also in spain:

www.pedigreequery.com/federal+trial

OKawango (the spanish one):

www.pedigreequery.com/okawango

And I could number a lot of them.

Regards from spain

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Bird Man — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:07:35 GMT

I've read many views on inbreeding and cross breeding. I believe that breeders should breed for soundness. The only way to breed for soundness is to breed to the horses that displayed soundness. People say don't inbreed to the "big three" sire lines, I say breed to the sound horses from those lines. I havent read about this stallion in anyones blogs. "REDATTORE(Brz). Yes he is Raise A Native/ Northern Dancer, but he started 32 times and won a grade(1) race at 8 years old. If we breed to horses like him we will start to breed soundness back into the thoroughbred race horse.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

porfidia — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:25:17 GMT

To start such a breeding program you need to find a broodmare who had a good to above average racing career who herself is an outcross.

I know I am a late participant to the discussion but I have just gotten interested in the subject.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Sandy — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:53:58 GMT

I looked through the 2004 Stallion Register and came up with this.

Vice Regent lines. Royal Academy and Linamix (maybe son Sagamix, an unbeaten horse thru the Arc) despite their Northern Dancer influences. Sinndar? still Northern Dancer 4th generation.

Early Flyer, standing in Texas, by Gilded Time. Meadowlake lines.

Mizzen Mast (Cozzene x Kinema (Graustark))

Mongoose (Broad Brush x Salty Gal (Cox's Ridge))

Orientate (Mt. Livermore x Dream Team (Cox's Ridge))

Prime Timber (Sultry Song x Wine Taster (Nodouble))

Prized (Kris S. x My Turbulent Miss (My Dad George)).

I'm not sure how insignificant he is, but Burbank was a pretty solid racer through his 6 year old career. He stands in Oklahoma for only $1000.

Would Kamsin Succeed in America?

The Five-Cross Files — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:08:27 GMT

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re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Gayle — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:50:28 GMT

I have always loved Golden Pheasant. He is now in China. wouldnt he have made a great out cross for northern dancer and Mr Prospecter bloodlines? I wish they would bring him back home to the states.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

pharlap — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:58:31 GMT

I would really like to see an outline of how to create a breeding program like this, how to manage it and what to expect. This would be more for a hobby breeder who is interested in creating a lasting/consistant bloodline...

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Julie L. — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:26:22 GMT

You really got me curious so I took a look at the Top Sires of 2008 and found only 4 that did not have any Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew or In Reality in the first 5 generations, they were In Excess (Ire.) whose fee is n/a, Mizzen Mast who stands for $20,000, Holy Bull who stands for $15,000 and finally Halo's Image who stands for $7,500. This I found very interesting, we really need to promote those stallions who are free of the crosses mentioned in the first 5 generations. Of course there is Rahy but he is a great grandson of Nasrullah who is the sire of Bold Ruler but I think he is still a good outcross if you can keep away mares with the aforementioned bloodlines and he is an excellent sire and well worth the $80,000 stud fee.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Julie L. — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:05:29 GMT

I've found 2 stallions for you and both stand in the state of California and both are sons of Siberian Express - In Excess (Ire) and Siberian Summer. How did I do? There is no Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector or In Reality bloodlines.

Scot's reply: Good selections!

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Gin — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 06:52:39 GMT

I think what it boils down to, is whether or not anyone wants to take the initiative and pratice preservation. I've done what some on here have done, and searched the Stallion Register, and even went as far as starting from the VERY beginning of the "Original Three" on Pedigree Query(I had a lot of time on my hands at that point....) I've learned one thing, finding an outcross from the commercial isn't impossible! I enjoyed this discussion. Thanks for the topic starter!

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

OPERA HOUSE — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:15:22 GMT

I agree a lot with what has been said above. Obviously, a lot of great runners who were also "well-bred" attracted quality mares who had themselves produced good winners to other stallions. Fore example, take some Europeans Champions like Dancing Brave and Shareef Dancer - both very well-bred horses who stood at Dalham Hall Stud and covered the cream of mares. While having their moments as sires, fewer moments than the industry demanded, they have become good broodmares sires. Arazi, who also started his career at the same farm, has also begun to show his worth as a broodmare sire of late. During his stud career, Secretariat covered some of the best mares around and it is only natural that a horse who was not from the dominant Northern Dancer or Raise A Native lines would become a sire of broodmares - he also had the physique to produce big, strong mares who could carry foals.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Dawna Clephas — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:34:52 GMT

There’s a bit of a Catch-22 going on with the selection of sire lines available today. Certain pedigrees become successful, prices go up for these lines, and prices for those that are out of fashion decrease. Therefore, if you’ve bred to an outcross type, you’ll probably geld the boys for convenience since there’s little likelihood of making commercial sires of them if they win.

Some of the stallions that had so-so racing careers don’t get promoted as racing sires, but may fall into the hands of sporthorse breeders. Danzig didn’t wow anyone on the track but he had a hot pedigree so the world found out what a stupendous racing sire he was. How many others, with something besides Mr. P, N.D., or S.S. up close, are out there spawning tough horses with speed nobody will discover? They’re not listed in The Blood Horse. They may not even be promoted to TBs.

I’ve got a 2-yo Damascus grandson that is a stunning mover and has a stayer pedigree, with no 5-gen crosses (a Phalaris and Hyperion in the 6th) and a pedigree similar to Skip Trial’s. Would love to race him, but without the resources to get him into race training I’ll probably start him in dressage. Some day he may make fabulous babies, but the track will never hear of them. There are doubtless hundreds of good possibilities like him out there in the show world, and these may end up being where our outcross needs are eventually met.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

BargainBlueblood — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:29:28 GMT

How about Smart Guy?

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Marc W — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:12:06 GMT

Note to add Sham-Man-and until above I never took a shot at anyone other than Draynay on one of his comments that might have been forged according to the moderator--- it was so ridiculous.

Racehorse Breeding Theories

By Frank J. Mitchell, Rommy Faversham, Steven A. Roman, David Dink

It discusses second generation with good mares (Blue Hens) making the sire a good broodmare even if his get are average racehorses.--proof add on

Another question? I lived and breathed racehorses for 40 years working on a breeding farm part-time when going to school and on track in many positions from asst. clocker, horse identifier, odds maker, groom, et et et as well as owning and training a few---Messenger for EP Taylor--at the sale Northern Dancer didn't sell for $25K walked a great filly named La Prevoyante (Did you know she was out of the full sister to Northern Dancer?)-flew to France to see Nijinsky lose to Sassafras in 1970 Arc, also seen races in Mexico and at most tracks in NA -What are your credentials and knowledge derived from? ---computer skills? I will admit one of your posts was impressive with all the stats. There are people who know more than me-but I speak from a little experience.

FYI-I also saw about 12 Sham foals when they came to the track so definitely can't say every one looked like them----but it seemed all their body's seemed short and very compact--more like ponies-just for your info since you seem to want to know about your favorite horse. I would suspect that is why they didn't do well or sell well. Again small sample-I was a clocker then.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Marc W — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:57:36 GMT

Sham-man

To This

Secretariat-seeing the mares he did-he would "HAVE TO" have some nice blood out there-but I wouldn't credit him-it just "had to" happen through those Blue Hen mares. The same for Damascus, and some others that failed at stud."

This is typical of your unsubstantiated commentary as posted on other blogs.

Every pedigree worth a farthing requires BOTH a father and a mother. Every top notch stallion has been made more valuable by the company he kept. So what? By your logic, I could take a $1,000 claimer that somehow evaded the knife, breed him to numerous classy mares, and eventually I'll get a Horse of the Year. Wow! That's easy. I'll start buying the mares tomorrow. How many do you think I'll need 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or more?

By the way, can you offer any documentation that Secretariat deserves no credit for any of his talented descendants?

Answers

Although he never saw "Toussaud"-he saw the like mares to her in his generation (I am using her for an example hoping you will know her without going to your computer for figures) ---If I bred a goat to her it would be fast. Never in my memory-trust me, it is better and more knowledgeable than yours without looking at figures on a computer-I have NEVER known any sire dead or alive that got the bookings he did of the best mares. PERIOD!

Proof-go to the mares get and compare how they did this other sires. Sham also did much worse than Secretariat for a needle I can't resist, but then, even a $4000 claimer that got loose in the paddock may have produced better than Sham.

Check the indexes my friend-it's not tough.

--Secretariat's 1/2 brother Sir Gaylord I believe threw more winners % wise than did Secretariat in his short career. I believe Big Red had two or three brothers at stud before him. He was beautifully bred-Bold Ruler was the great stud of his generation-and a mare that had produced a few stakes winners. He was a great looking horse, had good blood in the family as sires, retired sound and a champion. When he went to stud he had ALL the makings-at the time if I could I would have killed for a season with a mare. The 6 or 7 million they bought him for at 2 was a steal, he just wasn't able to reproduce himself. Remember Canada Bound?

The get of many many many many other champion racehorse mares or great producers that Secretariat saw. Look what they threw from other sires. He is not alone my friend, my favorite Dr Fager was worse, as was Damascus, S. Bid, Sham, and other great horses-other than Fager they all threw a couple good horses.

Vice Regent was a maiden breaker and nothing else, yet one of the most underrated great sires ever. His full brother Viceregal was as good of horse I have ever seen if sound would be lists of the greats-The crappy racehorse was the better sire---things happen.

Yes, we had Lady's Secret, General Assembly, Risen Star et. very nice horses. Ole Bob Bowers had John Henry------was it the sire?

Crytoclearance--breed to him for $3500 now---he has been known to throw champions---it was him of course-yeah right-take the good mares away and you have him today (and the last 6 years).

Go to my current greatly underrated favorite sire-Unusual Heat $17500 fee---He hasn't had a champion but improves mares. God knows what he might throw with the same type mares Big Red had. I would love to see him head to head with Mr Greely (who has thrown nice horses but is my pick for most overpriced) at a $125,000 and saw his mares.

Better Thought----just check the indexes out. Look and marvel if you have the time to see the mares he saw. It was the who's who of racehorses and broodmares in that era. It is truly amazing.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

walaa — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:58:51 GMT

This doesnt really relate to this column, so I understand if it doesnt get posted, but at least it involves a racehorse:) If anyone knows of a forum that talks about off the trackers could you please post the address? I just got a Theatrical gelding that came out of the thoroughbred training center in Lexington a couple-4 weeks ago. Duke of Venice. He raced primarily in England, won a 2 mile race, mile and a half race, but only started 13 times in his career. He sold as a yearling at Keeneland for 300,000 in 2001. His breeder was Forenaghts Stud in KY. I am just trying to find any info that could help me in rehabbing this horse. Thanks, and again I understand scot, if you dont post this, it doesnt relate, just hoping someone can point me in the right direction, or may know this horse. Thanks.

Scot's reply: Nice English group winner from one of my all-time favorite families (his fourth dam is by the incomparable Dr. Fager and out of a Bold Ruler half sister to Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal). He actually ran 14 times and earned $118,114. There are several Yahoo groups that discuss Thoroughbred rehab and retraining. Join them! And the folks on the Pedigree Query forum might be a good source of information. Good luck with your new guy!

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Flyingm — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:32:43 GMT

For the Saratoga Six mare, you might want to consider Thunder Gulch. Point Given was out of a Turkoman mare, so Saratoga Six might me a nice match. I like the Thunder Gulches. They have speed and can sprint, route, dirt or turf.

For the Jolies Halo mare, Belong to Me could be interesting. He has showm an affinity for Turn-to blood and his best Runner Jerssy Girl was out of a Valid appeal mare, ( I think). Anyway, you have both source of blood in that mare that Belong to Me has proved to be useful to.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

walaa — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:11:53 GMT

pretty low budget right now, but it wont be until next year I breed, so it could be bigger, but I eally believe the value right now is alot of the lower priced, less used studs, at least for me:) Im in Tenn, KY is my best. I have a Saratoga Six mare that I might be breeding also, I do have her so I guess I should be looking for her first!

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Fla-chick — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:34:11 GMT

Not one stallion named here (in the US anyway) has done as good a job as In Excess. He is the true outcross right now in the United States.

re: Is Sire-Line Outcrossing Possible Anymore?

Flyingm — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:43:33 GMT

walaa, what is your budget? There could be any number of suitable studs. How about geography? Do you want a KY based stud, or FL or MD, etc? Give us more info, please.