Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

JMcM — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:09:38 GMT

I agree regarding the too high (I thought) beginning stud fee for a fast but unproven Smarty. I was disappointed he was retired so quickly. Were they afraid he'd not continue to win as other 3 year olds matured? Altho' I think he's visually unremarkable, he may eventually have some who are great in some way,racers or producers. When still racing,I favored Lion Heart even tho'Smarty won and am glad he's proven better in producing runners, starting at a fairer price.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Pedigree Shelly — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:26:00 GMT

I'd like to add a few positive comments about " Smarty " He brought alot of new fans to the sport and generated alot of excitement ! His pedigree does have some interesing features as well . His female family decendes from the great mare La Troienne also he is inbred to one of my favorite stallions , Bold Ruler 5s x 5d x 5d !

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Pedigree Shelly — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 01:59:55 GMT

I'll comment on the so called "Smarty" controversy ! I never really thought of him as an attractive stallion . He was awfully plain looking , he had alot of spirit , which he definately showed on the track !! But, from a pedigree and conformation standpoint he was definately overrated ! I'm not saying he may never throw a few decent stakes horses but, things dont look too good so far !

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Allez — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:39:28 GMT

Don't forget about the No Guarantee.

If you don't want or need the reassurance that you'll end up with a live foal that the "Stands and Nurses" contract offers, then you can negotiate or find a "No Guarantee" option for less money.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

keenelandcat — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:24:40 GMT

I should know better than post when I get irritated. I'm a small breeder of some very good horses, not a published columnist. If you look at Kentucky alone, there are a multitude of stallions standing representing some of the best farms in the world. You can find the bloodline you want at prices that range from extravagant to reasonable. Of all the stallions standing in Kentucky alone, only 5, maybe 6, are private fee. With that percentage being so minute, I fail to see how so much significant damage can be caused. Breeding for quantity not quality is what worries me. We are breeding horses that aren't sound and sending them to the track. I took offense to the negative comments regarding Smary Jones. In a time when our sport was longing for a hero to revitalize its image. Along came Smarty. Of all the near triple crown winners we have had, he was the best. After he was retired, his connections were drug through the mud for doing what was best for them and their horse. A grateful industry showed its true colors. The bottom line is its an owners & farms decision to establish fees. If you don't like it, move on to anouther.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

sceptre — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:20:43 GMT

Many blame "GREED" for our present woes. I can't find any evidence to support this. It is, rather, lack of knowledge/perspective that has tended to drive this industry. The stud farms and the yearling/weanling/ 2 yr. old breeders/sellers are forced to offer what the breeding/buying public wants. If that public were better informed, availablity and pricing would conform more to reality.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Sm Breeder — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:19:07 GMT

Everyone forgets who sets the stud fees...The stallion farms.. If a Stud farm has that much confidence to buy and stand that stallion, let them take part of the risk with the mare owner on selling the foal... I think the private fee is just a way to be able to make more deals for the breedings... Many top horses were produced from deals made on seasons.... One to mind was Charismatic-a foal share with Lanes End and Parish Hill.. Smart Strike stood on mare share and foal share deals for a couple of years to fill his book and look at him now... Each mare owner has their own decision of who they breed to and what they pay.. Just like shopping at Wal-Mart or The Gap.. THe stud farms shouldn't take all the blame... The stallon business became so lucrative lately that the bidding war (same as Keeneland sales) drove up the price of the sallion, hence higher stud fees to recover their cost... We the industry (mare owners, agents, pinhookers. and stud farms)let that happen because everyone got too greedy... The outrageous money made at the sales by first crop sires drove all this... As Cot Campell said everyone is trying to catch lghtning in a bottle... The industry, all of us, got too greedy... Now we all have to regroup and rethink... Insted of blamng each other, work things out the is good for each side and help each other to survive in this hard economic time...

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

katethegreat — Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:52:30 GMT

To me a horse has more merit as a breeding horse if he successfully

produces runners from mediocre

pedigrees. A great stallion should

be able to improve a donkey, and

there lies the truth. After a couple of seasons of producing at

affordable stud fees to all, he has earned his increased stud fee.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Julie L. — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:01:01 GMT

Jennie - I said "useful sire" not great. I have seen in the past a few stallions not start out producing great runners in their first few years at stud and then they get moved or get the right mares and suddenly it all comes together. Smarty Jones and others that initially stood at $100,000 never should have started at those fees they had nothing to back it up other than their race record which does not always mean success in the stud which is what I said at the beginning of this blog. I love Curlin but even for me a $60,000 stud fee without knowing what he will produce is so iffy. I know it's a free market but how many times have we seen a free market get an industry into trouble. Common sense before greed.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

NOLEYBOY — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:31:34 GMT

LET THE MARKET DICTATE STALLION PRICING,WHAT NEXT? ASKING THE GOVEREMENT FOR TARP MONEY TO SUBSIDIZE BREEDING.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Jennie — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:48:54 GMT

Julie L., I guess you could say that, with his AEI of 1.24 and progeny earnings this year of just over $1.6 million, that Smarty is a "useful" sire. But that is open to debate. Take Smarty right now and plop him in Pennsylvania, and he wouldn't even rank among the top 5 stallions according to progeny earnings... would barely make the top 10. And these are runners conceived on that $100K stud fee.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Dennis A — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:13:03 GMT

I really don't understand all this jibrish. It is still a free market industry. Stallion owners are free to handle their stallions as they see fit and mare owners their mares as they see fit. The market will balance it out if meddling fools will get out of the way. I have been on both sides of this discussion. A university study found that of mares confirmed pregnant at 45 days only 1/3 of those pregnancies resulted in a live horse at the end of their 2yr old year. Most of that loss comes during pregnancy and the first 6 months of a foals life. As a breeder having invested money and time breeding my mare I am going to do everything I can to ensure my mare stays bred and delivers a healthy foal. I'm willing to bet most breeders take the same attitude towards breeding. As a stallion owner I give a 6 month post foaling guarantee. It is my way of helping a mare owner carry the risk inherent in breeding. Breeding horses is a very very high risk venture. The industry is in a real mess and there is plenty of blame to go around for everyone as to why that is, mare owners breeding to many mares, stallion owners standing stallions that have no business covering mares. There needs to be a huge correction in this industry. A lot of both stallion and mare farms need to fail. The small 2010 stallion directory is a good indication of the beginning of that correction.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Julie L. — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:33:44 GMT

Another good example of pricing a stallion right is Mr. Prospector, he initially stood in Florida and then once his foals after several crops showed how good they were then he was grabbed up and sent to Kentucky where they figured that he would get better mares and of course his fee grew. Right now here in California we have Unusual Heat who has shown that no matter the mare he can throw good racehorses running at the high caliber graded races. I'm surprised that a Kentucky farm hasn't tried to buy him yet. Also usually when a stallion throws excellent runners he ends up being an excellent broodmare sire. I think in time Smarty Jones will start proving to be a very useful sire and broodmare sire.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Cgriff — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:29:37 GMT

Keenelandcat,

If you read back through the thread of comments - you'll see that no one is "smacking down" Smarty - he just is one of the more recent examples of using a private fee to save face. That's the topic - that's the issue. Smarty's situation is illustrative only. Any response detailing why he fits the mold was to a post requesting reasoning. No one is out to get either Smarty or Three Chimneys.

Both do fit the illustration, and while you talk about the problems in our industry, you fail to acknowledge that rabidly overpriced stallion fees and front end greed built into syndication deals is a component. It's why no good colt stays on the track for more than a year or two - it's one of the reasons why the bubble finally popped when the recession blew into the sales.

So again let me clarify - this was about the use of private fee labeling to cover a disappointing stallion. The practice fools no one who has a brain and even a toehold in the industry.

Since you are obviously concerned about the troubles in our industry, please read Dan Leibman's latest piece that indicates 2009 as the first year in a long time that more colts are staying in racing than are being syndicated. And what did it take to make that happen? It was only because there is no money in syndicating stallions right now.

So where's the foresight and vision to improve the industry as a whole when It takes the bottom falling out of the market to make people do the right thing?

Oh, and Karen In Indiana - I totally agree. Tiznow is the perfect example of pricing a stallion the right way and letting him succeed or fail on his own merits. They even lowered his fee from the original price a couple seasons in. Very, very smart - and look at him now!

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

sceptre — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:47:43 GMT

To Anne,

You brought out my point fairly clearly. With almost no exceptions, once your mare conceives the stallion has no causal relationship to whether or not your mare produces a live foal. Isn't this point obvious? So why then should the stallion owner(s) take partial financial responsibility for your loss should your mare (once impregnated) not later produce a live foal? The stallion fulfilled his obligation when he impregnated your mare-what happens later is completely beyond any stallions' abilities/control. One way or another we are all paying for those mares who fail to conceive or produce live foals-we pay for it in the form of higher stud fees. To some extent this is a form of socialized horse breeding, and not something that any of us have bargained for (it has simply gone unnoticed). Again, one can, instead, purchase insurance against such events. The premium would be determined relative to each mare's risk. Stud fees would then be lower, and the total cost of producing (or not producing) a foal would be lower for some, higher for others dependent solely upon the perceived ability of one's mare to produce a live foal. This rationale is in keeping with priciples of basic free market commerce, not to mention all other areas of thoroughbred business. The guaranteed live foal provision may appear to be an added "gift", but in reality it isn't. We ALL pay for it.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

keenelandcat — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:06:39 GMT

Enough with the Smarty smack-down. These are difficult times for our industry-I understand the point of the article, but what was the real purpose? Basically, it seemed only to take pot shots at the policies of Three Chimney's Farm. For those of us that still remember when Secretariat's first SEVERAL crops hit the track, the same cry went up. "He's a dud, he's overpriced, blah,blah, blah. As is now common knowledge, tincture of time proved otherwise. I believe if you look at Smarty's pedigree, you'll find Secretariat there. Also, if you are an outsider(which I'm not), your opinion is considered worthless based on the article & comments. I think a definition of "outsider" is in order. Now, you've pretty much insulted small breeders who frequently have very good broodmares. With all the problems our breeding industry is facing, I am SO SO glad you brought this most critical issue to the forefront.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Jennie — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:06:03 GMT

Re: Cgriff's comment expecting Smarty to end up either in Pa. or overseas eventually - three Pa. farms were in the mix to stand him for 2010, and it almost came to fruition, but the numbers weren't quite right. Perhaps in 2011.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Anne — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:04:49 GMT

I will not breed to a stallion if I dont have a LFSN contract. I am not sending my mare to a stallion for a pregnant mare, Im sending her to him for a live foal. Thats what Im paying for. Fortunately it seems stallions owners now understand this concept.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Karen in Indiana — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:07:18 GMT

There is one current stallion whose fees have followed Julie L's comments and that's Tiznow. He didn't get a lot of respect when he first started his stud career, so his fees were relatively low. But his progeny started proving themselves on the track and his fees have gone up accordingly. Isn't it better to have the first few years of breeders and owners who appreciate having received a good deal?

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

El Angelo — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:00:42 GMT

I know that Sadler's Well used to be a "private fee" and I believe the primary reason for that is that most of his stud arrangements were large-scale negotiations--i.e., you didn't just arrange to have Sadler's Well bred to one horse this year, you worked out breeding him to multiple horses over multiple years. Given that Coolmore had every reason to make sure only top mares had access to him, it made sense.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

Cgriff — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:37:23 GMT

Ponies01:

It's a combination of following the first two or three crops of Smarty's foals and the accompanying "buzz" from the inside of the industry. His first weanlings and yearlings sold well enough, but there was already an undercurrent of opinion (never on the record, of course) that they were not meeting the standard of a 100K fee.

When those first two year olds started hitting the training tracks - and then began to race - the numbers spoke for themselves. He was producing some solid runners at the lower levels - but the few to break through to stakes conditions were mostly unable to keep pace at that level.

There was hope that they might be slower to develop and would really kick on as they entered the 3-yr-old season. But very few left a mark (Backtalk) and none have been competitive consistently beyond allowance conditions.

That's pretty telling, IMO.

So now he's at 10K and won't be getting the top mares.....I fully expect him to move back to PA in the next couple of years. That or be sold overseas, as Silver Charm was when his profitability was past.

If I were new to the industry and wanted to do things right - I'd go old school. Find a proven stallion at an affordable price that would compliment my mare. I would look at a new stallion with a great race record - but not at 100K.

Most of all - I'd listen a lot, read everything I could get my hands on and try to learn the basics from the best. And I'd be patient. If you want to breed to a new stallion priced out the door - just wait two or three years. If he doesn't pan out - you can have him for a song, and if he proves himself - well - it's not like you would have gotten in on the ground floor with a super deal since he was already priced through the roof.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

sceptre — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:29:33 GMT

To Gulchfan-Yes, your "additional reason" (not adequately caring for the "blemished" newborn), is another reason why the guaranteed live foal contract should be discarded. I don't understand your point relating to "extreme methods". As to your "sometimes it's no ones fault" argument- same could be said about some racetrack, etc. breakdowns, etc. There is such a thing called insurance-it is available for conception, live foal, what have you.

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

pNewmarket — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:52:37 GMT

Me again!

I meant to add that there are many different types of terms on offer in Europe and I have often wondered why the same does not apply in the US:

1st October Terms - fee payable if mare is in foal at 1st October following covering, regardless of whether or not a live foal is produced.

Live Foal - similar to "Stands and Nurses"

Special Live Foal - fee payable at 1st October, but refunded if no foal is produced, or the foal dies within 48 hours of birth.

Less common, but still available with the smaller stallions are:

NFFR - No Foal, Free Return

FFFR - Filly Foal, Free Return

Just wondering if anyone knows why these terms are not seen in the US and if they would be attractive to US breeders?

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

pNewmarket — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:47:18 GMT

I'm guessing from this thread that a "Private" fee means something completely different in the US to Europe.

Over here it pretty much means "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"!

Stallions currently listed as Private in Europe:

Danehill Dancer

Galileo

Monsun

Montjeu

Normally if a stallion is having his fee cut or has been a disappointment he is listed as "POA" (price on application).

Two nations divided by a common language and all that :)

re: Calling for Fewer Private Stud Fees in 2010

kbp — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:52:11 GMT

Interestingly, they are no comments from stud farms!