What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Pacey — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:34:59 GMT

I worked as a groom for 25 years for a top Standardbred stable. I was the who broke down not the horses. Our horses jogged 4 days out of the week and trained 2. When we were stabled at the Meadowlands, there was not any place to turn out, (as with many tracks) you would have to ship to a farm. So that did not happen much. I cared for 2-3 horses, each horse worked in the morning and each one was hand walked during the afternoon or early evening hours. Boredom is a terrible thing for a horse. being in a stall for 23 hours a day even worse. After each horse worked they were cooled out, by hand walking, not put on a walker. The interaction between groom and horse is a important contribution to their mental well being. I have found that a horse with a healthy mental wellness, plus properly conditioned and trained will give their all. My horses were not $100,000 horses, yet they made that and much more. And no, standardbred breeders are not breeding to thoroughbreds now, but you can go and look up any standardbreds pedigree and trace them back to the Darley, Godolphin, and Turk Arabians the same as you do thoroughbreds. I love thoroughbred racing and Standardbred racing. The worse thing to see is one break down, You will see it in harness racing, but it is a rare occurence.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Donna — Sun, 21 Nov 2010 03:15:34 GMT

I have trained both Standardbreds and TB's and I can tell you that the training methods used for SB are much better than for TB's. Standardbred trainers try to focus on the horse as a whole, his soundness, his mental fitness, his physical fitness, his diet, and I have known several trainers that are picky about who works with or around their horse, they want to make sure they "get along ok". After 12 years on the harness track I married a man that likes TB's so we trained and raced them and I was astonished at how backwards all their methods and attitudes towards training their horses were, and I also witnessed more injuries and horses breaking down in 5 years on the TB track than in 12 years at the harness track. I was also saddened at how these horses are essentially useless after their racing careers are over because many of them are not sound or don't have the mental capacity to make the change to a new career, while most SB easily make the transition. I was so utterly disgusted by the TB industry that I quit and went back to Standardbreds, I hope one day people in the TB industry will wake up and see what they have done to this breed of horse.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Terry — Thu, 11 Nov 2010 05:49:31 GMT

Crossing with TBs would be counterproductive, aside from the fact that the closed stud book prevents it. Breeders want harness horses that want to trot or pace, not gallop.

I am not a trainer, but I have thought for years that putting lots of slow miles on a horse instead of 15 minutes a day going fast would do wonders in building bone & stamina in TBs.

I think the fact that Standardbreds get turned out regularly during the week instead of being kept in stalls 23 hours a day helps them both mentally and physically. TB trainers could learn a lot from the tail sitters!

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

pedmat — Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:53:36 GMT

I raised the same questions at a recent TB pedigree seminar at Lexington. That weekend the Standardbred Breeders Crown races produced six world records and 9 track records. I suggested that the reason for the continued improvement in SB times was due to the practice of maternal inbreeding, a standard method of improving genetics in many other breeds of animals, something that TB breeders do not recognize as significant and indeed seldom practice. All of the SB winners in the Breeders Crown races showed maternal inbreeding in the 3rd or 4th generation, a rarety in the TB world.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

ridexc — Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:41:14 GMT

Sorry, Skeptical, Standardbreds have a closed studbook. There is absolutely no way a Standardbred mare could be crossed with a Thoroughbred and produce a registerable, raceable foal. Even if the Stdbred guys had any desire to breed to TBs, which they don't, it wouldn't be allowed. The changes in the breed type over the past 100 years have been purely the result of selective breeding within the Standardbred. And yes, it has produced a lighter, sleeker, typier horse, with better gaits and earlier speed. The downside of that, as we all know, is that soundness and durability have been sacrificed to some degree.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

JM — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 23:50:56 GMT

And add this factor: For more than two decades the Thoroughbred breed has been greatly influenced by the training methods used by successful(?) trainers coming from the Quarter Horse industry.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Oldie — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 20:13:51 GMT

Hve to add my two cents, as I spent 5 years in the mid 70s working for a Standardbred owner/trainer.

I first beg to differ that they have evolved in the way described by Phar Lap - one of the yearlings I helped break and train was 16h+, and while I would agree he was slightly heavier boned than the typical thoroughbred, he was not small and stout by any stretch of the imagination. The other yearling we brok and trained the same year was only 15h but of much lighter build.

Once trained to be harnessed and driven, they were jogged 4 miles a day - and I realize jogging and galloping are different, but the jogging is the way to build muscle, stamina, pulse and wind. Muscle around bones and joints prevents injury. Do TBs get bored with routines like this? Sure - but you can find ways to change the scenery and routine while still building basic overall strength and stamina. It takes a LOT longer than 15 minutes, to be sure, but as others are pointing out, we didn't see injuries and catastrophic breakdowns.

Additionally, I agree with all who point out the long term, multigenerational problems associated with drug use and masking actual physical condition and genetic predisposition to fragility.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Qatmom — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:51:57 GMT

Elsewhere, i have seen comments that perhaps changes in the track could account for the faster Hambletonian times.

Since 1981, the race has been run at the Meadowlands. Prior to that, it was run at DuQoin, illinois, 1957-1980.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Joltman — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 06:05:17 GMT

I would like to find a trainer who is really doing this interval training right. Most don't understand (or want to understand) the exercise physiology or may take on a few things from it but quickly abandon it because it doesn't 'work'. Given the economics - the standard techniques of trainers today don't work.

Also, one reason for improvement in harness times are the bikes. They are much faster, better balanced than the old bikes, let alone the high wheelers.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

eileen — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 23:34:18 GMT

ok lets have patton manning work out once a week before a game and see how well he does game time

or a runner work lightly once a week and try to run 20 or 30 miles

a basketball player practice hitting to basket 5 times before a game while sitting in a chair

same difference as how the thoroughbreds of today are trained

hurt? really who would have thought ???

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

downhomesunset — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:45:21 GMT

Skeptical-IF you can prove to me that a single racing-bred Standardbred had TB blood in it-I will eat my words.

Mhaegele-Somebeachsomewhere was the first SB 2 yr old to break the 1:50 pacing mile-and he raced 4 years ago. Did you not take a good look at the chart? Niatross was the first 3 yr old to break the 1:50 pacing mile-in 1980 that was a big deal-now we hardly blink because there are thousands.

Standardbreds also don't spend 23 hours a day in a stall-they are trained at facilities that have turnout paddocks-equisizers-pools and jogging tracks which are long scenic widened "trail rides". All of this is why breakdowns rarely occur and why they can race so often.

They also use artificial insemination,shipped and frozen sperm. Would Kingmambo be retired from stud if he was allowed to mount a phantom that was not so tall and awkward?

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

LoriM — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:10:16 GMT

Couple of points:

The Standardbred is still a relatively young breed when compared to the Thoroughbred, with the registry having been established around 1840-1850. The registry was formed with a "standard" of a 2:30 mile, with horses intially accepted into the registry that had either trotted or paced an official mile in 2:30 or had progeny that had trotted or paced a mile in 2:30 (hence the name name "Standardbred") Most of the early trotters that appeared in the registry were a mixture of Thoroughbred crosses on cold blooded stock, as was Hambletonian who was by Abdullah a son of imported Messenger out of basically a buggy mare. Today, there are almost two distinct breeds within the Standardbred -trotters and pacers, and they both have distinct pedigree lines. Pari-mutuel racing is also relatively new to the breed, coming in vogue in the 50's. So in some ways...maybe we also need to compare to development of Standardbred to the development of Thoroughbred in its first 150 years of its registry.

Having grown up on a Standardbred breeding and training farm, I remember trainers talking about how the breed had developed and evolved in the 60's and 70's and continued to develop through 80's and 90's.

I think the big improvement in the Standardbred and speed has become in the gait. Training trotters is both an issue of conditioning and getting the horse balanced correctly. A lot of training for trotters takes place at the forge!

Trainers in the 50's and 60's used to say it was not uncommon to have a trotter carrying a pound or more in toe weights on each front foot, just to get them balanced so they would stay on gait. The shoes looked like draft horse shoes back then and now look more like racing plates.

Today, it is just a matter of a few ounces for the modern trotter. Take a pound off each front, and you obviously have a horse that can trot a lot faster. Can you imagine how leg weary those horse got with a pund of toe weights nailed to the font of their hoof.

Pacers also seemed to improve in gait, staring in the 70's. For pacers it isn't an issue of weight, but having the breed's gait evolve so they didn't interfere with themselves, especially by hitting their knees. The pacers or the 50's and 60's used to rap their knees pretty hard and required reinforced knee boots. Starting in the 70's, and related to the influence of dominating sire Meadow Skipper and his sons, the pacing gait become much more fluid, and the tendency to "hit their knees" less of a problem.

Harness horse trainers who have been around a few years will probably say they also don't need to work the horses quite as hard as they used to, or warm them up quite as hard to get the optimal performance.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Gulchfan — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:23:30 GMT

One difference I would note is in the stock and original purposes of these current race horses. Standardbred race horses descend from horses who were used as *the* mode of transportation for the family, they had to go and go and go, miles and miles, everyday. Thoroughbreds have always and only been bred to race, so the dynamics are different. One evolved into a race horse, it's all the other was ever was meant to be (which makes their ability to be retrained for second careers that much more remarkable).

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Qatmom — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:32:11 GMT

Way Back When, TBs were sometimes broken to drive and actually pull a cart prior to their track work. If memory serves me correctly, Dr Fager was broken this way.

I also recall seeing a photo of a line of John Madden's WEANLINGS under saddle, ridden by children!

There are ways of putting more conditioning into a young horse. Some inventiveness will be required, but the present approach isn't working so well.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Robert — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 18:48:56 GMT

To Pedigree Ann: BINGO !! You hit the nail on the head. You are right in that we can't prove it, but all these Quarter Horse trainers who work their horse in 58 and 59 seconds for 5/8ths can't be good. Those training methods seem to be the norm now. I wonder how John Sheriffs trains Zenyatta? I would bet money there is more stamina building than speed training.

Big Lou: Seattle Slew was broken that way with a lot of Long Line training and he learned how to pull a cart long before he ever carried a rider. A friend of mine does this now and you would be amazed how the horses are when they are trained to relax off the bit and to hold their head. Pulling the cart teaches them how to use their backend. Excellent Points!!

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Bill — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 17:53:27 GMT

Interval training, conventional training, fast to slow, slow to fast, etc. - regardless of the method what needs to be present is physiological measurements to ensure the horse is getting fitter.

Many different things can work, but not if you dont chart and analyze response to exercise in the HR/speed relationship and/or blood lactate.

Anyone who interval trained without an ONBOARD heart rate/GPS monitor likely did it wrong (Tom Ivers, etc.)

The key is to find the workload (speed/distance/frequency) that elicits improvement with little risk - and that will differ for each horse each week - some may 'graduate' to IT like an Afleet Alex, many will not.

You can't tell me that Rachel Alexandra and a $5000 claimer both need daily 1.5 mile gallops and breezes every 7 days at 4-6F to get and/or remain fit - whether not they are just starting to campaign or are 4 months deep.

One size does not fit all in humans or horses and yes D Wayne started this trend.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Apples vs Oranges ? — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 17:14:26 GMT

I remenber Tom Ivers promotion of Interval Training covered in a series sent out in a periodical by a Drug maker in the early 1980's. In Theory it makes sense, but in practicality it is very difficult to apply to TB's due to a number of factors. The first is Gait. TB's run much faster and utilize a complete differnt set of bio mechanical componnents for propulsion. Speed is the second and most difficult factor because Speed is where TB injuries most commomly occur. SB rarely breakdown catastrophicly. Lastly the people who tried to implement this type of training reported their horses were just worn out before they made it to the races. Economy factors such as the amoount of time required per horse per training session required increased fees by riders to ride them. SB trainers do not have to worry about riders because the can drive them on their own. I think Interval training would have flourished if TB' trainers were successful with it. But I dont kbnow of any top trainers in America who was in the 80's and 90's when this method was being touted to TB traiiners in America.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Robert — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:45:44 GMT

There was a Thoroughbred racehorse a few years ago that was trained 2 times a day and galloped 2 1/2 mile almost every day, except on the days he did speed work. Those days he only galloped 1 1/2 miles. All this training probably helped him recover from a near disaster during a race that the video show him slapping a front leg hard on the ground, but with no ill effects. That horses name.......Afleet Alex. He could sprint, go a route, and now his offspring are showing the same tendencies. If only more trainers galloped their horses into shape instead of fast workouts. I don't know if the breed is capable of lowering the times much more than they have done, but if they do then we will know we are doing something right.......Finally!!!

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Karen in Indiana — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:11:05 GMT

Don, the answer to your question is money. Standardbreds are frequently owned & trained by the same person & there are even a few owner/trainer/drivers. They have a vested interest in keeping costs low - that means as few vet bills and incidentals as possible. The money they spend preventively is more than made up by the health of the horse. In contrast, thoroughbred racing has escort ponies, gate handlers, and vets that all make money on the status quo. Team that with trainers who want non-involved owners who keep their mouths shut and wallet open and you have a formula for exactly what has happened the last 30+ years.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Big Lou — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:09:37 GMT

Some years back i met a thoughrobred trainer that will break all his horses as if they were standarbred.He told me that the horses were better racehorses for it

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Phar Lap — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:22:26 GMT

1. Several Harness Trainers have changed to TB with success . Roger Stein in Ca! Good but no Charlie Wittingham.

2. In 20 years the Standardbred has changed from smaller strong boned stout type to what now looks like a TB with a buggy behind it! Taller lighter boned and much more leggy with a longer stride is why times have improved!

3. The mental temperament is what makes the breeds very different. I have seen many rich smart people try to "Interval train" Tbs. They overtrained to the point the horses were flat and sour if not broke down! We do Interval train Tbs only it is every few days! The whole thing with Interval training is recovery of heart rate and respiration to normal and then training again well Tbs in a working training environment can not mentally do that in a timely fashion!

It doesn't matter how you train a great horse he will be great likewise it doesn't matter what you do with a slow one it will always be slow!

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:09:23 GMT

It's not that long ago that TB trainers knew how to get horses fit for lengthy campaigns with 10-12 starts from March to November. I remember those days, when the top horses raced one another every couple of weeks. The first Derby horse I followed from his 2yo year was Jim French, a horse from the old school who ran in Derby preps in Florida, New York, and California on consecutive weekends and won the last one (Santa Anita Derby).

Old-timers knew that you didn't get a horse fit in 15 minutes a day. They need miles of walking, trotting, and cantering as well speed training. I have a notion it was the influence of Quarter Horse trainers that changed the way trainers train, but I can't prove it.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Carmel — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:08:26 GMT

Great article! Hope someone will give these things a try!

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Bill — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:58:09 GMT

And Don, the 'edge' that everyone is looking for can come in a syringe and takes no extra time, attention, or effort on the trainers part.

TB guys can always blame genetics/pedigree when a runner fails - even though 90% of those genetic attributes can be improved upon through correct physiological training.

re: What Can Thoroughbred Trainers Learn from Standardbred Conditioners?

Bill — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:56:03 GMT

To Don: the chart in the article shows you those methods work.

Fact is that TB trainers play a different game: get as many owners as possible with racing prospects - put all 200+ of them through the same regimen at 4 different locations - and move in new ones when they break down or lose.

Standardbred guys mainly have fewer trainees, ride in the sulky themselves, and have to maximize the potential of each horse to survive in the game.

I'm not trying to criticize the top TB guys, but everyone who copies their methods who doesn't have endless owners with deep pockets should reconsider.

Plus training the standardbred way takes over an hour per day per horse, while TB's get 9-15 minutes a day of exercise. Simply a matter of time and economics in many cases.