The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Bradgm — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 00:00:36 GMT

joe, it may be a suckers bet but I dang sure wish I was as big a sucker as Jordy. The kid WINS.

What is your suggestion lower the takeout? Thereby lowering everything else at the track including the quality of horses because it's tied to the purses. Where would the tracks get the tax money, purse money etc? Us gamblers know that, if it's such a suckers bet why do so many of us do it and do well at it?

I know, I'll go play slots at the casino, now there's a guarantee. 80-94% over the lifetime of the machines. Could be the 94% all hits on the last day of it's life.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

joe — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:00:45 GMT

JordanA,

Agree,Horsesracing is more intertaining than Wall st.

But Horseracing at 20 to 30% takeout is still a Suckers bet.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

JordanA — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:33:00 GMT

Dreamers Mom,

A lot of tracks do a barn tour. Saratoga has a breakfast with the works and tram tours to the backside. Keeneland has a breakfast with the works and demonstrations in the paddock. Lot's of trainers will get you a visitors pass for the backside and Churchill has tours for little kids and such. I don't know where you train, or if you still train but the big tracks do this all the

time or have some kind of activity where you can get up close and personal. If you're at a small track then it seems like you should push for it where you are, be a driving force behind it. A lot of the Saratoga breakfasts are packed.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

JordanA — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:03:56 GMT

joe, at least with horse racing you can watch what's happening up close and personal. With the stock market you are at the mercy of the greediest guys on the planet. It's not gambling precisely because your payouts take 30 years, I collect most of my bets a lot quicker than that. You know I'd much rather bet a few bucks, win a few hundred or thousand and get my money back right away. One of those immediate gratification guys Attherbarn, aren't I. The other thing is everybody betting horses has the same risks and same takeout. I just don't trust what I can't see while it's happening right then and there. Besides I think those traders on the floor screaming like fools are just that, fools. I don't feel quite as stupid yelling for a horse as I would a piece of paper.

Well Bemo, that answers your own question. Even my friends would prefer horse racing over Cricket, lawn bowling and croquet. Here in America we have so many sports to choose from your entertainment dollar is stretched to the max. Then when you figure like here in California, the theme parks, golf, surfing, on and on it really is tough.

and man, I don't think there is any comparison between the greyhounds and horse racing no where close to the same perception. I can talk some of my non racing buddies into going to the track once and a while but mention greyhounds they run for the hills shouting 'Heeere comes the bunny.' The girls have heard about how they're even crueler to the dogs than the horses and the dogs aren't as pretty as the horses, the girls comment not mine.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Bemo — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:34:26 GMT

To Atthebarn:

Thanks for the comments.

The reference to greyhound racing had nothing to do with the merits or demerits of that sport vs ours, it was simply to point out that our "perception" of that sport is similar to the perception of the general public to OUR sport. - They neither know or care.

With respect to the newspapers, publicity does not have to be in PRINT. The Australian sports news was off their web site, right on the front page of the Sports section. Very rare to ever see that here.

I agree with you, a day at the races is as good or better than a day spent doing anything else that takes 4 hours whether it's golf or some other sporting event. I don't think that it's any different and actually much more fun because you can participate actively using the wager as your opinion.

I don't know if we ever be able to translate the reasons why 25-30 thousand people showed up every Saturday at Arlington Park and somehow make that work today, but the fact is that this is an extremely popular sport in other areas of the world.

If horseracing can compete with Cricket, Soccer and Lawn Bowling and be successfull, what is so different here?

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

joe — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:27:49 GMT

The whole economy is going nuts because the market is down around 15%.

Can you imagine what it will be like if it reaches a NewYork pick-4(26%)

Anyone with a half a brain would walk a way from Racing as soon as he/she saw the Takeout.

What Is It with people who defend HIGH takeout?

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

da3hoss — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:10:42 GMT

atthebarn, you and I are on the same page a lot...my observation was personal, I'm not saying the perception of "gambling" doesn't turn some people off...I have just personally ever had aomeone say that to me well, maybe not horseracing directly, about gambling period. ;-)

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

JordanA — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:19:04 GMT

joe, and you think any other kind of bet is less of a sucker bet? If you're a good handicapper you can make money even at 70%, because even though luck plays a part, you have factors you can definitely win on. A casino, pure D luck, unless you can count cards and of course get banned. Sports, well maybe but then you have the human variables there as well and look at the NBA etc.

They aren't actually talking about attracting any more of us degenerate gamblers, they want the fans back like in the old days. Probably not going to happen. My 20 something buddies would rather PLAY sports, ride their dirt bikes, surf, ski, snow board than go watch the grandeur of the horses. (p.s. I do quite well on that takeout, make a lot more than I make at my very lucrative job.)

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

joe — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 02:14:32 GMT

The real problem is that Horseracing Is a Suckers Bet.

Why would more people want to bet on this game?

If you Gamble on something that has a takeout of 20%,25% or 30%

You are a Sucker.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Atthebarn2 — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:48:27 GMT

jeff, don't we just wish it was 1958 when we had huge crowds at every race track. Course NFL was split into two different leagues, NBA same and neither was very big attall, No BCS bowls, NIT was the Big Dance and hockey (a sport from Canada). The Olympics huge, in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Then kids born in the late 70's early 80's, fast life, video games every kind of sport known to mankind, X Games for the thrill seekers. We have sponsors for the big races and some of the not so big. Toyota Blue Grass etc. Most of the tracks ARE owned by private entities. The Stan Fulton Sunland Park, CDI Churchill, Calder etc. Oh and of course Magna tracks. People had a fit when the Yum brands sponsored the Derby, those that didn't already think racing was cruel didn't want to come to the race sponsored by those vicious chicken killers. The advertising, well the basic issue there is we are all private contractors for the most part. We aren't salaried even on a sliding scale like other sports. Rodeo is in the same boat and they like our jockeys would rightfully want to keep the advertisers money to support themselves. I guess if you took all the money from all the advertisers and put it into a pot, split it between everybody, well then you'd have corporate stables,and nothing but because somebody would get short changed in the deal.

As far as the newspaper coverage, heck most of the newspapers are struggling, closing up shop left and right, the internet is the way over 80% of people under 50 get their daily news. As far as embracing television, we bent over backward, getting them to televise any race they would, live wiring folks who are superstitious by nature, leaving them with a hope they weren't jinxed. Well then ESPN started televising us. The Draw was shortened for a replay of a 'football' (soccer) game. We've been bumped for nearly everything, like my 90 y.o. Pops says, "they bump us for a re-run of the marble shooting championship for 8-9 year olds".

Bemo, You keep harping on the greyhound deal. Like I said before, I love animals but I have no interest at all in watching dogs chase a fake rabbit. Wrong of me maybe so, but you don't even have a jockey or human figure to connect them to and it isn't really a thing of beauty to watch in my opinion. It isn't the same thing as Horse Racing. You can't even compare different Horse disciplines let alone different species. Maybe that's part of racings problem too many different types of sports try to piggyback onto each other. What you said is kind of like saying just because people like car racing they should like horse racing and greyhound racing because all of them go fast around an oval.

Most of the stuff being talked about has been tried over and over but I guess we could pick out the best ideas and try again.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Dreamer's Mom — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:03:00 GMT

I cannot begin to count the number of people I have dragged, yes dragged to our barn to meet our horses. Once they get there they realize they aren't "just horses" and I have managed to convert a few of those folks. Some have become regulars at the track, but I have no idea if they are betting. I do know they are cheering because they know one of the four-legged competitors. And I know the old-time image of cigar-smoking, chalk-wielding, big-time-under-the-table gamblers has left their minds.

I have begged track management to do barn tours. Lord knows I rarely leave our barn, so send the people on over! Mostly I hear grumblings about insurance risks, blah, blah, blah. Our tracks cater to the "big gamblers" and the big gamblers don't really give a rip about the horses. They REALLY don't give a rip about the people involved with the horses.

I wish I knew how to fix the decline. I will continue to drag people to our barn. I will keep trying to show people that it isn't only about gambling. These horses are our lives. We have to be able to give people long term rooting interests. We have to put on a good show and give them horses to follow. We have to make them WANT to go to the track because there is something fun there-radio broadcasts, prizes, playgrounds and oh yeah, awesome horses to watch. We are such an immediate society and time between posts takes forever! Give them fun and eventually they will realize there are races being run. And they will decide that the reason they come really is for the horses after all.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Handride — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:51:18 GMT

Cool, I think we're mostly on the same page, I'm kind of shocked. @ BEMO, Early Fires is right, but I'd take it a step further and say we don't have coverage because gambling is a negative that papers no longer want to be associated with. Yes, they publish NFL, NCAA lines, but the sports are somehow able to overcome the gambling aspect of their sport. Racing needs to overcome it's gambling side, it's just that our gambling side is the entire sport. Pretty tough stuff.

@jeff - love to see more advertising, but as long as gambling is as associated with this sport as it is, it's a tough sell.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

jeff1961 — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:15:48 GMT

Horse racing has to move into the 21st century.Get looser with advertising for starters. Let the jockeys advertise on their silks,pants,& caps(owners,tracks,& horsemen can split the profits)and get the big corporate money involved.If you're trying to get generation X involved, they follow the money.And since racing occurs year-round,they need a big racing weekend every month that is heavily advertised. You create major events,they will come.And why not sell sponsorship of the tracks to the major corporations like they do with the major league stadiums? I see nothing wrong with "Home Depot's" Belmont Park.And the Jockey Club should let people or corporations buy commercial names for their horses if they wish,another avenue to make more money. If you want to be major league you have to do what they do-it obviously works.The year is 2008, not 1958.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

STEVE STONE — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:28:37 GMT

Hello..Weighing in on why thoroughbred racing is no longer covered in the print media as comprehensively today vis-a-vis in an earlier era is primarily that the traditional dailies in our major markets across the land are experiencing substantial loses in their advertising revenues...and w/plummeting vital and essential ad sales to continue to operate these titles..and with no end in sight...papers are rachetting down their staffs accordingly and the turf writer whom was covering the local scene is now covering not only racing but other sports as well..therefore racing is not only her/his beat..Sports editors today are ubiquitously assigning writers to more than one event in order to rein in out of control expenses..all tanamount to dwindling revenues..thanks to the soft economy... The mere fact that we are commenting via-e-mails to this very column and question is the very culprit for the slow and deliberate demise of the newspaper industry..The computer..internet is now the source of news..Its no longer the world of newsprint.. Sadly but true..Computers/internet bring instant news gratification..Print news does not..And the internet is an whole lot less to produce...Another reason for the dearth of racing coverage in the local dailies is that racing has fallen on its proverbial sword resultant from dwindling attendance at the races...negative publicity and the list is infinite..Now one could very well say that if the papers covered it more extensively with daily features..and full result charts..perhaps the public would rally and respond around its popularity more..The NASCAR world has been so much more aggressive over the years in promoting its own environment..as horse racing should unquestionably borrow an page from them..The real real problem though is that its an spectator sport..as an child you don't play horse racing with your friends or family.....you play other sports in school and after school..You have teams and it follows you throughout your life...Your incolcated at an early age...You gravitate to horse racing when an parent/grandparent or relative takes you to the track for the first time at an younger age..Once you leave the track..you cannot play horse racing in your backyard as is the case with other sports that are participant...The long-term outlook for racing to return to the sports pages is probably non-existant..save the Triple Crown events..The Breeders' Cup and perhaps an marque event or two at an local track....Or another regretable mishap occurring on the track....i.e. Eight Belles..That generates news....as adverse as it may be...Its most unfortunate though that the sport never embraced the new medium of TV over 60 years ago as other sports did..If it did..we wouldn't be conducting this conversation here and today.....But perhaps thats for another day and another column..Thank you always for your kind window..Best regards..Steve Stone..East Hanover..New Jersey

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Bemo — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:17:32 GMT

I posted a blog on a similar topic yesterday, although not on this forum.

To reiterate, the great jockey Earlie Fires retired at the end of the Arlington Park 2008 season. He was asked what were the major changes that he had seen in this sport over the last 5 decades - he began riding in the 1960's. He replied that the greatest change that he has seen was the dramatic decline in the mainstream media coverage of this sport.

For those of us who began going racing in the 1960's there was at least occasional coverage of the sport in the daily paper and nightly news, beyond just the basic morning line and results type of coverage that we see today. Our local CBS affiliate here in the Chicago area had the late Bruce Roberts doing sports and he always showed the stretch run of the Saturday feature race from Arlington. No more.

The only real coverage of racing in the mainstream media either takes place ONLY during the Triple Crown events or in the event of some major negative event. Other than that, it is basically non-existent.

Without mainstream coverage, how will this sport ever attract any new fans? What news outlet wants to report on a sport that is not broadcast on regular TV, has daily attendance in the hundreds or very low thousands, and is completely off the radar screen of 99.99% of the population?

To put that into perspective, how many readers of this publication, the Daily Racing Form, Thoroughbred Times, TVG and HRTV viewers can tell me the location, current "Stars" and schedule of the local Greyhound track?

This is the same impression the general public has about horseracing - they don't know or care.

I guarantee you that if you stop a stranger on the street in any large city and asked them the name and location of the local horse track, they couldn't tell you.

Just for fun, I was on the website of the Adelaide Sun from Australia. The Sport section had 8 lead stories on their website - four of these stories had to do with horse racing! You would NEVER see that here in any newspaper in any US city, large or small except maybe in Lexington.

IF NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT, WHY WOULD THEY EVER ATTEND, PLACE A BET, OR CARE?

I think that this is the greatest challenge facing this sport. There will always be racing fans, just not very many of us.

Bottom line - maybe the gambling aspect of it SHOULD be the emphasis. The fact is that a large segment of the public enjoys gambling. The easy type of gambling is especially attractive - slot machines and lotteries. Why can't racing make access just as easy? If we have a state lottery machine in every tavern, grocery store and 7/11, why can't there be some form of inexpensive "quick pick" machine tied to horse racing? Imagine the betting pools if that caught on. The return is absolutely better than either slots or lotteries. Exploit that.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Atthebarn2 — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:03:28 GMT

da3hoss,

while I've agreed with you a few times and whereas I agree with part of your comment, I know from being involved in the sport for many years that a lot of people don't like the gambling aspect. The people questioning you might stop if whips and drugs were banned, but they still wouldn't support it because they'd find fault with some other facet of it. Trust me in 50+ years I've heard it all. And you know that's fine because it's different strokes etc. However, they've always used the stick and maam let me tell you in the old days it was violent and vicious against horses and other riders, still we had huge numbers of fans and if you listen to some on here the drugs were around then. However I think I've heard more people say it isn't a sport it's gambling, from the average person to the bigshot media types. Problem is we're deader without it than we are with it.

Don't know if you're old enough to remember the days when a lot of tracks didn't allow kids in the track AT ALL, none in the Turf/Jockey club and definitely none in the paddock or winners circle. My thinking is I've heard many more complain about the unsavory flavor of the track due to the gamblers and the nomadic nature of the game. Well with longer meets and a lot of wealthy people coming in we started to lose some of that but the behavior of some of our brethren, be it drug positives or remarks better left unsaid, we have that same aura again. Like one of my fellow trainers said however, we will always have the degenerate gamblers we just need to attract families. Well most mom's don't want their 3 year old hanging out with degenerate gamblers. It's toughter than just the drug and whip issue. Still goes back to ALL of the sports available and the demand for action and immediate gratification.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

TerriV — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:57:19 GMT

This is a tough one. I too have never had one person say a negative thing about racing with the word "gambling" in it. The negative comments I hear always have to do with the perceived treatment of the horses or feeling frightened by the possibility of another horse being injured or dying on the track. (funny I haven't heard much concern for the jockeys) Maybe if someone could figure out what it was that made racing one of the top 3 back in the day, that could be used to resurrect racing. But I doubt it. People today expect constant, unrelenting entertainment. Example: what movies are most successful? And if you have ever been to the Preakness you know that the entire infield barely realizes there is a horse race going on. But most of all I don't think people understand racing. There are so many more facets to racing than to any other sport. The more you know, the more fun it is. To people who have never experienced it and are not interested in the experience, horses running around a track is boring. If only they could see the beauty!

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Bradgm — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:34:22 GMT

Dany, the problem is we aren't a country owned by a beneficent ruler. Not a problem to me but a problem to supporting race tracks. Face it without gambling there will be no racing, no way around it period. We can have all the fans in the world but unless they're willing to ante up $100 each to watch the animals run it won't work. The owners won't own, the trainers won't train and the jockeys won't ride. You just have to look at competitive horse shows to know that. I hear from all my show friends that if they get 30 in a class at a fairly large event they're all jumping for joy (literally and figuratively both) usually it's like 10 or less, sometimes only 1 or 2. In an ideal world it would be like you wish but the simple fact is 100,000 fans wouldn't support the industry, pay the purses, maintain the facilities unless exhorbitant amounts were charged for the fans to show. We've heard many people grumbling about that very thing for the Derby and the Breeders Cup, you think we could get that attendance even if it's one or two days a week? Which brings up another issue. Connections would leave because it's too cost prohibitive to care for these animals without an opportunity to make money. A slim chance to run in 1 or 2 races that fit your horse, not smart economics. The owners would bail for something else.

Japan, well, they also slaughter Derby winners without conscience. Those 200 people don't want anything to do with them when they aren't making money or bringing them glory. Yes that may happen here, we do have some laws though and I'd like to think we wouldn't let it happen to a revered horse. Also some of the things their culture believes or believed in don't exactly coincide with ours.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

da3hoss — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:13:13 GMT

Not one friend or member of my family has ever said to me "How can you support the gambling in horseracing". Every single friend and family member, except my best friend and my husband, has said to me: "How can you support a sport that uses so many drugs and steroids on animals" and "How can you support a sport that always whips the horses?"

It ain't gambling that's turning off making new fans.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Kelly E. — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:02:13 GMT

My Sunday newspaper this past weekend didn't even have ONE WORD about Curlin becoming the all-time leading money earner in racing! I was horrified (and saddened).

Being a resident of Michigan where tracks have been historically scarce and/or irrelevant...I have long fought for horse racing as a fan's fan sport. Gambling is not such a big issue as there are casinos all over this state. I think gambling is the extra little bonus of it. I just think you can't help but fall in love with the racehorses - and their power, beauty, and determination to win. There are some really great stories in racing - human and equine! I think we have the opportunity to promote this sport as a "pure" experience with an edge. We work to clean the sport up - and hopefully become the first sport to achieve this - and then promote the heck out of it as the opposite experience of Vegas. Why not? The attempts to use Vegas-like ads, etc., on TV have failed miserably. Why not work to bring back the golden age of racing? I think people in the US need something we can perceive as good ol' boy fun - with the chance to make a profit. What more could we want?

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

Richard R — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:41:59 GMT

Cut out the gambling and prepare the RIP notices for horse racing. If you think that attendance is low now, remove the gambling and see who shows up.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

DANYLSON — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:27:18 GMT

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU . SINCE I HAVE BEEN A CHILD GOING TO THE RACETRACK GAMBLING HAS BEEN THE ATMOSPHERE OF HORSE RACING. THE SAD THING IS MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT IS WHAT HORSE RACING IS ALL ABOUT. FIRST, THE BEAUTY OF THE EQUINE IS AWESOME AND THE COMPETITION OF SOME OF THE BEST HORSES AROUND. TRACKS NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB TO NOT CREATE A GAMBLING PRONE ATMOSPHERE THAT TRUTHFULLY REPELS FANS. THE TRUTH IS GAMBLING IS BIG FOR RACING BUT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO GO ABOUT. THE BEST EXAMPLE IS THE DUBAI RACES..NO GAMBLING AT ALL, THOSE PEOPLE ARE FANS AND THEY ROOT THERE HORSES OUT WITHOUT A BETTING INTEREST. JAPAN HAS THE SHARE LIKE OWNERSHIP FOR HORSES,THEY HAVE LIKE 200 OWNERS PER EACH HORSE, YEA THEY BET BUT MOST GO BECAUSE THEY OWN 1 PIECE OF SOME TYPE OF HORSE,THEY ARE ATTACHED TO THE PRODUCT. I THINK SOLUTIONS ARE THEIR TO EXPLORE, MAYBE PROVIDING FANS WITH A HANGOUT PLACE AND FOCUSING ON SOME OF THE THINGS DUBAI AND JAPAN HAVE GOING..MARKETING IS KEY BUT WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE AND SCOUT FOR THE NEW FANS AND I THINK LIKE ANYTHING GETTING THEM INVOLVED IN NOT SO MUCH GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE,TRUST ME IT IS NOT EASY BUT JUST LIKE U POINTED OUT THERE ARE WAYS TO GO AFTER. THE CONCLUDE I LOVE WHAT THEY DID WITH THE SANTA ANITA IN THE INFIELD IT IS FAMILY PRONE AND YOUNG ORIENTED ATMOSPHERE PLUS WHAT AN IDEA, MAXIMIZE THE SPACE THEY PAY FOR AND GET A BUCK OR TWO OUT OF IT, THAT IS A POSITIVE.

re: The Largest Problem Facing Racing - It Ain't the Papers

aspradling — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:25:27 GMT

Gambling definitely has mixed emotions from people. I don't watch horse racing for the betting, though that is a nice bonus for me, but I have seen enough controversy and drama among the outlets to know it isn't helping the industry. I still feel it is the lack of exposure to the general public and how to appeal to them.