Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Valerie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:47:14 GMT

Those of you unfamiliar with the Thoroughbred Bloggers Alliance should look at our history: thoroughbredbloggersalliance.blogspot.com/.../october-2005-1st-press-release.html

Founded in 2005, we are the original horse racing bloggers, comprising of industry insiders (owners, trainers, breeders, track handicappers and race callers) and mere fans with a love for the history of the sport. We are not a new creation of Bloodhorse, merely a group that has formed an association with this august horse racing publication, to provide a broader voice and scope of ideas. I claim no special credentials other than a life-long (more than 40 years) fan of the sport. I was unaware that only industry insiders or “professionals” of some sort could offer opinions worthy of contemplation. Fortunately, as a university professor in my “real” job, I would never discount a student’s views merely because they do not already possess a Ph.D. as I do. I would consider with high regard their educated opinions, as they may offer a perspective I had not thought of before. Challenging the status quo is not disrespectful or demeaning to those in the industry, and I am sorry some feel that way.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

SundaySilenced — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:45:19 GMT

Valerie,

I feel your pain, I get what your saying 100%. You obviously have proper credentials or the BH would not let you do this, and if that weren't enough, your intelligent, insightful, knowledge and PASSION is clear to those of us who have been in the biz' a long time.

I have to laugh at people who criticize those of us who are bitter. Most of the comments are out of sheer frustration from people, and they have a reason and a right. I support this buisness and have for 20 plus yrs, I have a right to vent and complain! Racing is not and has not been doing the average Joe any favors. This country our world as we know was founded on protesting, uprising, thats the only way to get things done. Look at the presidential debate. We are so fed up with the same old crap that this has become a truly important election. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a headline read from an in-depth survey, "core fans are pissed" if we make a curious person of racing run because of all the negative comments, don't blame the worker bees, blame what racing has become even to to die hard fan. Some of you bloggers must have the good life not to be even a little affected by the rising prices, now doubled by a two day event. You guys must be young because after 20 + yrs of going to Triple Crowns and BC's, I'm getting old and tired, and now, it's starting to really become un-affordable. It was in the past at times too, but now they are expecting more of the average fan and giving less back.

As far as the BC point system, your right it's LAME with a capitial L, and even I, who follow statistics, never, ever pay attention to the point system.

Points should be awarded for graded races ONLY. If we need more, then get rid of some of the Stakes, but for goodness sake let's agree on something. If by chance we still have BC spots open, then we can use earnings as an avenue.

I believe we have finally reached the bottom of the barrel as a fall out from the overspending, over breeding of the 80's. Hindsight is 20-20. We finally got the sight, but what are we gonna do with it. Don't stop shouting at the rooftops, even with radical ideas, maybe someone, some day will hear us. I hope I'm still around to see it.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Whatamidoing — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:58:58 GMT

Just a moment or two of down time before the card starts.

Valerie,

I agree with some of what you said. But some of it is outrageous. A point system for every horse? Better you than me trying to keep track of that. Although years ago diffierent tracks used to keep track of that and award claiming horse of the year etc. In fact there are a few that STILL do that to this day.

I agree that the big shots don't listen to the fans. Worse yet they don't listen to those in the industry. But to suggest doing away with the BC, that's where we departed ways. Unless you have a Derby type horse you're never going to get to one of these big races and be in the spotlight. If it's just for the black type, why do geldings run in it? Most of the people who are owners and sell their stock for breeding purposes reinvest and even if the divest themselves totally they never get back as much as they spend.

Also on the point system, you WERE talking about the Breeders Cup. As far as HOY and divisional winners. If you were a journalist you would have a vote. Those are selected by the National Turf Writers, DRF and NTRA. I can tell you there has been a lot of disagreement with their decisions in past.

As far as splitting up the races, then it becomes like all the TOO many stakes races one of your fellow bloggers is talking about (not that I agree with him either)

I agree with debate, throwing ideas out there. However like political debates, viable suggestions and plans go further than volatile rhetoric.

Now I'm off to do my job that so many of you want to do away with.

By the way what are your credentials? Just curious. This format of blog is new to me. I'm used to the Steve Haskin's and Jason Shandler's of the world. Steve in particular being someone who is widely known and respected in the world of racing. Even if I don't always agree with what they say I know where they're coming from and what qualifies them to say it.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Valerie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:31:22 GMT

Thank you all for your comments. The kind of provocative discussion that ensued as the result of my blog entry is exactly my intent. Whether you agree or disagree with my ideas, I think we can all concur that just by reading and post here we all reveal our passion for the sport.

I would take exception, however, to a few comments that completely misconstrued my thoughts. The point system I recommend is a completely separate notion from the current BC point system, of which I am fully cognizant (although not through watching “Dreamer”) despite what’s been suggested. The point system I suggest would apply to horses racing at all levels, and the BC races would earn points for horses as well—this point system would determine championship awards, not the winning of a single race. As it stands, the BC point system is lame, barely recognized even by fans during the course of the year, and only has relevance for entry into a BC race. It is meaningless in the greater context of racing during the year, unlike division standings in other professional sports.

I also did not “slam” the 1-1/2 mile distance, only criticized it being characterized as a “marathon.” In most countries, 12 furlongs would be considered “middle distance.” If the BC insists on having a Marathon category, then it needs to be a true long distance race—at least 2 miles. Exactly as Johnny said, when Kelso won the Jockey Club Gold Cup in five consecutive years (1960-64), it was a 2 mile race. We need to get that back.

It is a shame (although probably completely understandable given the current state of our society) that any constructive criticism is labeled as bitterness. Nothing could be further from the truth! I was brought up to challenge ideas, to not believe anything without having turned it inside and out in order to understand how and why it exists as it does. Too bad those in charge of horse racing—whether the BC, AGSC, TOBA, NTRA, or The Jockey Club—don’t believe similarly.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Whatamidoing — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:14:01 GMT

My colleague Atthebarn and I were discussing this along with the Big Brown deal.

First, the suggestions to radically change the TC races or switch them out with the BC is semi nuts. You change the Derby and you get rid of the one race nearly EVERYONE in the world knows about. We're still thinking on the TC Format. A lot of trainers have expressed a desire for change and they were shouted down by the public. More of just adding a bit of time between all the way up to changing the distance and adding the Travers as the 4th jewel, I guess a Quad Crown??? Still the tracks would be the same and the general time frame the same.

The Breeders Cup. Two days is a bit much, but the idea to move the ungraded stakes to Friday (the new races) and the established races back to Saturday sounds good. Also doing away with the track stakes but that's a day for the guys who can't make it into the BC to shine a little on a big day. The reason for selling the tickets as a package is to fill the stands both days, understandable.

Valerie, There is a set format and point system and you can check the standings.

Johnny, Thanks for being a fan!

The marathon, considering the average race for a TB is 1 mile and we rarely run them at a mile and 1/2 I guess that's the reason they chose that. Some tracks here in the U.S. run a 2 mile race as the final of the meet. Not like in Europe or the Steeplechase races where they run so far.

As far as HOY, remember Favorite Trick 2 y.o. in 1997, beat out Skip Away, Silver Charm, Gentlemen, FormalGold etc. Skip Away won the JCGC and The Classic, Silver Charm won the Derby, Preakness and came so close to winning the TC. Somewhere the last few years the voting has changed and is more based on the Classic, who shows up who does or doesn't win. Could be the younger or newer voters doing that in the last 7-8 years. The Classic is the ultimate for 3 year olds and up, just like the Derby is for the straight 3 year olds. It should be worth more money wise, it's got the best of the best. The BC as a whole is also designed to reward people for running their horses all year, garnering enough points to get in, winning a Win and You're In race and having a chance to run at a huge purse. (after paying a fortune to run in it 125g's or more if you supplement). One other thing about the HOY, Charismatic won in 99, we know what happened with him in the Belmont. Possibly the award was more for the Lewis', a lot of debate on why he got it. But even Baffert was shocked that he beat out Lukas for Outstanding Trainer, most thought it just shows how political it all is. Of course it's the Turf Writers and the DRF as well as the NTRA I guess it just depends on how well the writers like you and how well you get along with the powers that be.

Sharon, Churchill Downs is horse country. Those of us who have been in other circuits know the huge difference between Kentucky and the rest. The attitudes are much different towards the horse, the horsemen. Although Keeneland was down and that's worrisome, my thought is a reflection of the current economy. Saratoga is another track that treats the horsemen well and draws lots of fans, it was down too.

Just Heard CURLIN is running.

UC, Yes we have to think about improving the product, protecting the horse but wholesale change is the first step in making it go away forever. How many things have we seen change and then become something unrecognizable and a lesser product? They try to change back but by then they've lost the hard core fan and gamblers who valued the traditions and the nouveau fans have moved onto the next IN thing. Change for the sake of change never succeeds and the shotgun method of change rarely works. (Fire enough buckshot and you'll hit something). In my opinion, we need to keep the good things (like the Derby etc) improve on the things that aren't so good, make inroads into the problems and issues and most of all try to ride out the economic situation right now.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

BIGHORSEFAN — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:23:54 GMT

UC,

Actually I wasn't kidding about the 4 year old. That's not what I want, but I've heard it on here so many times from the people who own warmbloods, do other events etc that I figure that's the agenda.

As far as the TC for fillies. That's what my gambling buddy Jordy was pointing out, are the people on here really fans or just have an agenda to get across? There is already a Triple Crown for 3 year old fillies. It's now called the Triple Tiara and it's been changed to different races at different tracks and different dates a couple times. Like the guy on here suggested they do with the TC, now they want to change it to the Oaks, Black Eyed Susan and The Acorn. The filly races the day before or of (Acorn) the TC races. Guess the fact that the Triple Tiara is sort of forgotten shows what would happen if we start messing around with the TC.

Sharon,

There will be some of the races on ABC 1-3:30 ET, therefore the Classic will be on ESPN but any port in the storm although I'd prefer Network too. Less people have ESPN than some on here think.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Sharon — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:55:07 GMT

I don't like the fact that they have separated the Fillies races from the rest of the Breeders' Cup card. I have to work and cannot watch and I wait all year long to watch the Distaff events.

That said, Churchill Downs runs the Kentucky Oaks the day before the Derby and has since day one. It regularly attracts the same size crowd. What other track could host two back to back races with over 100,000 fans in attendance and make each one special? The trick is promotion.

What bothers me the most is putting the Breeder's Cup on ESPN. Not everybody in this country can afford cable or satellite TV, especially in these economic times. The Breeders' Cup is becoming more and more elitist. Maybe it is time to let it die.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Johnny — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:27:58 GMT

I've followed horse racing loyally and passionately for five years, including the Breeders' Cup, although when I started in 2003, I didn't really know what the BC was. I suspect most of the lay public may not know either. But most, if not all of them, know what the Kentucky Derby is, and if a horse wins the first two legs of the TC, they still might not recognize the Belmont Stakes by name, but you can be sure they're aware that something monumental might be about to happen in sports.

There are just too many BC races now, and although I've prided myself as a fan who's been able to stay abreast of things, I just can't keep track of all these new races or the horses running in these newly created divisions. It's too much. And after having a two-day affair last year, I wish they'd move the event back to a single day. This is just another day now that I have to ask off from work. Fortuntately I have great supervisors who have given me the time off.

The BC Marathon should be renamed because 12 furlongs is really more of a middle-distance race. The JCGC used to be two miles, which Kelso won five times, and two mile races are still run (on grass) in other countries; so I don't understand calling a 1 1/2 mile race a marathon. I have nothing against the race itself, just what I consider an inappropriate name for it.

Breeders' Cup races are not created equal, with the Classic being the "grand prize" and all others lesser prizes, which I don't think is fair, because it means that unless a horse runs in the Classic, he or she has almost no chance to be considered for HOTY (unless the Classic favorites don't show up) even if that horse dominates his or her division all year. Turf runners and sprinters have historically been left out. Not that a non-BC Classic contender can't receive HOTY, because it's been done, but since Mineshaft in 2003, no horse who hasn't run in this richest BC has done it. Having said that, it's also true that Ghostzapper, Saint Liam, Invasor, and Curlin have certainly been worthy recipients of HOTY.

To just mention the Classic for right now, Curlin went five furlongs in :59 today. He looks great, his coat is shiny, he's carrying his flesh well, he's seems to have moved smoothly and confidently over the Pro-Ride, and he looks well muscled. If he's in good order tomorrow, I think the Classic is his to lose. I was also impressed with Casino Drive's performance yesterday, but heart-broken today over Big Brown's injury and retirement; never-the-less, I think even without Brownie, the BC Classic will still provide plenty of excitment, and the Euros are coming to the party.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

UCLinden — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:53:32 GMT

" HorseFan " , your comments are noted , always welcomed and appreciated. It is nice to hear you have read my past ideas. I'm sorry to hear thou, you think this idea is one of my worst. You have to understand, I DO realize that no matter what ideas any of us suggest, they will fall upon deaf ears.

I do agree, some of my ideas are somewhat radical. But , keep in mind , they do offer change, that is why we are all here. If we all agreed with the status quo, we would not be posting our thoughts. If you look at the heading of this column, one of the words is " rethinking " , and the author offered their suggestions for change.

You won't change a thing if you don't think, no matter how radical a thought it may be.

I would like to expand upon one of your comments ( even if it was meant to be sarcastic ) ...... which is okay with me ..... criticism is good, just like change.

Your comment was this ...... "Just come out and say you want to run the Triple Crown races as 4 year olds " and to that I'll add another comment you made ......

"One of our big fan bases that are non-gamblers are women ". Now what " if " we had a female Triple Crown that featured 4 year olds !!! We all know the tragedy that befell Eight Belles this year. What if the female division had a 4 year old Triple Crown series ?? Would you think that might generate racing interest among woman ??

What if those races for fillies / mares was an all turf event , no dirt !!! Maybe one of the races could be held at Colonial Downs in Virginia, who happen to have " woman's day " at the races.

One thing I sincerely hope you have gotten from any of my comments / suggestions / opinions ...... is my feeling for the welfare / health / safety of the horse.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

JordanA — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:53:52 GMT

On the point system recommended by you, I really think if you were going to write a blog you would have done better research. Even though a Blog is just an opinion.

There IS a point system in effect. It IS based on Graded stakes races with a certain # of points awarded for 1st through 3rd. Entry into the races are based on Perf in the BC Challenge races, then points then panel decision if the field is oversubscribed. This year they're taking also eligibles. The dirt entries, points only on dirt graded will count. Turf entries, only turf points in graded count. Except the 2 year old races, all graded race point will count for them. The standings are published on the BC site, DRF and NTRA sites. More of these sweeping statements and changes recommended when as one trainer on here said, no one listens to the people who do this every day. (you could have gotten this info from the sites I mentioned or even watched Dreamer and you could have gotten it there).

I'm starting to wonder just how many posting on here are really fans of racing and how many just want to give opinions.

justwatching,

nobody's forcing you to buy a ticket. Here's a newsflash though. My friends alma mater is charging $25,000 to secure a premium seat for basketball, that doesn't include the cost of the actual tickets. My alma mater charges 100-2500 just for the privilege of buying a ticket then we pay between 450-3000 per season ticket and this is COLLEGE Basketball where the guys supposedly don't make a salary. Somebody on this blog stable suggested they do away with betting, if so $1000 would be the norm. Also reserved tickets to Saratoga are on a lottery basis and are limited, same for Churchill etc, nothing new there.

I also don't know why you say those people don't still exist. Jerkens, Mott, VanBerg, King Leatherbury, Lukas, etc have all been doing this for 30-60 years. My buddies and I all jump between hollering for GoGo (Garrett Gomez), Mikey (Mike Smith) Victor to the horse's name if it's pronounceable if not then we might say go #4 rather than saying go Nothonthesamepage etc or the now famous Go baby go, a lot of the trainers do that to, because they ARE their babies. Every single trainer and owner I know or have ever seen always call the horse's name, nickname or jocks name.

What needs to be changed is this constant bitterness, trying to find fault and something to complain about. A would be fan probably looks at stuff like these posts and thinks if it's so miserable and everything is so bad, and all I read are complaints and telling how lousy it is why WOULD I want to be a fan.

Now I'm turning off my *phone and watching Curlin work in a half hour.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

justwatching — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:39:23 GMT

For working people who love what horse racing WAS, I find it appalling to be charged $1,000 for two days of racing. Not to mention being expected to take a day off work just to make good on the ticket they FORCED us to buy. What has happened to racing is that the crass has replaced the class. Gone are the days of Whittingham, Shoe, Arcaro, Pincay, etc. What we are left with is people calling out the numbers of the horses, not the names of the jockey or the horses. I remember calling out "Go Shoe GO" - now its "Go 8 Go". Whoever is to blame, greed is now the name of the game.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Atthebarn2 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:08:28 GMT

Steve Stone,

The powers that be don't even listen to the people who ARE the industry, why would they listen to a fan? One or the other of us might give them a good idea. Especially those of us that do it every day. We have a perspective nobody else has.

Then you have those calling for a racing Czar like that'll help things. Somebody playing to the big shots so he can stay a big shot.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Whatever — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:36:58 GMT

Horse of the Year: Curlin

Best 3 yr. old filly: Proud Spell or Music Note???

Best 3 yr. old colt: Big Brown-only IF Casino Drive does not win the Classic, and he has a good shot. The rest, draw names from a hat and you'll probably do a much better job than the actual voters, who haven't got a clue how to vote for a good horse even if the animal walked up and kicked them on the side of their head they would still be clueless.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

Bradgm — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:01:01 GMT

Kyri, A lot of people don't have cable or satellite, frankly a lot less are going to have it in this economy. That sounds elitist to say that. An even bigger uproar occurred when Mon nite football was moved to ESPN.

Maybe a lot of coincidence that the viewing #"s declined so dramatically when they first took it over, but doubt that. The commercials on network are maddening enough without the ESPN running the same add 3x in a row.

UC,

The NORMAL (well that's questionable) average everyday people have no idea what it takes to keep a race horse sound, running at the top of their game. Nor do NEP have any idea what it takes to put one of these events on. Just like an armchair quarterback, it's so easy to tell everyone how to do things when it's no skin off of your back if it all blows up in their faces. You'll go on with your life and maybe miss racing once in a while. Meanwhile, you're messing with other people's lives that don't actually affect you one way or the other. Sort of like the government.

re: Rethinking the Breeders' Cup

BIGHORSEFAN — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:25:51 GMT

UCLinden,

I've seen you suggest some radical things but this is the worst.

Why in heavens name would we take the ONE race that millions upon millions watch, are interested in and move it? To try and get people who won't watch horse racing if their life depended on it to suddently become interested?

One of our big fan bases that are non-gamblers are women. My various buddies with kids say their wives are so busy in the fall they have no time to do anything. The guys get involved in all the same stuff too. Hauling the kids to their activities, helping with homework, trying to spend family time together on the weekends.

The Kentucky Derby Labor day weekend???? The last Holiday before school starts in some places or the last while Summer is still here? You've just cut into the fan base further.

Let me tell you about the fan base. The 20-40 something males that make up the majority of sports fans don't like horse racing for whatever reason. If they aren't gamlbers they don't see a huge amount of 'beauty' in the animals. Right or wrong that's just the way it is. Don't believe me? Just look at the way Jim Rome used to bash racing, until he became an owner. Mike Francesca talked about the Belmont and all the stories surrounding it. BOTH guys get/got harrassed to the max by that fan base whenever the subject of racing comes up.

Also your comment about the names of the races is condescending, duh like the majority of people on here don't know that. However, I doubt Belmont Park would release the name to use on a Triple Crown race. Not sure Pimlico would do that with the Preakness name if a different track was to hold the race. So let's just change the dates, change the tracks, change the names. Have the races on the Eastern seaboard in the fall and almost always guarantee bad weather, change tracks and what do we have anymore? Change the names and it's just another race.

Hey why don't we start calling the World Series the Fall Super Championship of Baseball, have it in April.All so logical (sarcasm).

As far as the BC at Monmouth, well Belmont has held the BC a number of times. You seem to forget that you're talking to racing fans on here and a small number of owners and trainers.

As far as having more horses, more mature running let's ask some of the RACE HORSE trainers how hard it is to keep a horse together for that long. Just come out and say you want to run the Triple Crown races as 4 year olds. All of these changes would destroy any remaining mystique, credibility or lure IMHO. They'd become just like every other ill-attended horse race in the country.

The Breeders Cup, which by the way was great when they started it, in the Spring would flounder like it does now. Us gamblers love all the stakes races together like that. The average fan doesn't have time to watch that many races over that many days or that long of a day. My suggestion is to move the core races back to Saturday, move the new-ungraded races back to Friday. Do away with all non BC races on BC day and shorten the time between posts. Like In the Mountains said,(a horse owner by the way, according to another blog) the same people that would most likely be the governing board made all these wholesale changes, we see where that's gotten them. Right, let's let them do the same thing to the TC.