Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Wanda — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:50:46 GMT

Carol: Serious your taking HRH the Aga Khan to task because he retired his homebred Arc winner Zarkava? He has been breeding and running his own for many many years and believe it or not the BC was not the objective of this filly the Arc was. He breeds top class racehorses and when they achieve their goal they are retired to the broodmare band or to stud.Did you happen to read the article on BH.com in which he thanked his trainer and all his staff for the wonderful job they did preparing her for this brilliant win? Please don't put this highly respected personage in with the get in get outs that are currently in racing.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

katsan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:22:08 GMT

Michael, If you read my post I made the comment about walking in my shoes to those who have not done so.

As far as my comment to Carol, she was sarcastic to a poster who I am acquainted with thru months of posting on here, we are board buddies. She can be snide but a response is not allowed?

My offer to let her work at our barn was a legitimate one. Because frankly I am so tired of the sarcasm and jabs at us by the uninformed who would no more put up with being talked to or about like that at their jobs than they would fly without an airplane.

We've been doing this for over 50 years and the industry is treated with total disrespect and disdain, not even taking into consideration that a lot of us are decent, honest people.

I can also say that if you are indeed an owner, which I googled you and cannot find that, but at any rate I would think you would be more understanding as to the plight of the trainers, grooms and all of the backside workers. Particularly since you say you are a volunteer and to my knowledge that is the only volunteerism there is, to help backside workers.

As far as unringing a bell, that just means that you can correct what you say but the initial thought and writing stays in the mind of the person. It's human nature.

I also congratulate you on any wins the horses you own may have had and wish you good luck as well.

I was not aware that when someone in the industry comes on and states their opinion they will be further lambasted for trying to defend themselves. Now that I'm aware of that I'll refrain.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Michael Nikolic — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:17:58 GMT

Katsan-

A few points.

I am on owner and I volunteer on the backstretch so please refrain from demanding I walk in your shoes.

You read that I amended the article so you know I am not unringing a bell since the original version is posted on my site.

I attend the races 6-10 times a month so my contributions to the industry are steady.

If you are so concerned with the new fan and their opinion of the game, perhaps you might reconsider your tone when commenting on someone's comment. Carol was expressing her opinion and your attack on her was uncalled for.

The post, which is opinion, has no inaccurate information, the decision to not bet on the BC is mine and your opinion of my choice of words is of monumental indifference to me.

Congratulations on your wins and good luck in your future endeavours.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

katsan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:34:24 GMT

p.s.

you also said you amended your blog, yet you can't unsay what was originally said. My point made about not being thoughtful and cautious about what is said. Like my 85 year old mother says, you can't unring a bell.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

katsan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:32:24 GMT

I've been off the blogs for a while. Several family tragedies.

As an owner/breeder/trainer and rescuer of race horses I can only say that all of the negativity on here isn't helping to save horse racing and I'm starting to think that is the agenda.

Michael, A graded stakes race DOES mean a lot to someone who actually has a race horse and not just for breeding purposes/hype. How many of them have you won? We've won a couple and we're prouder than punch of them, not G1's but G3's. To us it was like winning the Kentucky Derby, All-American Futurity and BC Classic all rolled into one. You all are taking the minority and turning it into the norm. Also, exactly what is it that you are accomplishing by all of this? You're going to "hit them where it hurts" by not betting. Yet you aren't skipping the BC or not watching it on TV. THAT is what hurts the powers that be, not the betting. THAT hurts the track, the horsemen and the community, not the powers that be. They've got their money for your ticket, the sponsorship the ads etc.

Through my tragic last month of life I've learned a number of things. One is to not let the negative people of the world color my vision of what reality is. The other is that people take the negative and blow it out of proportion, skew the facts to back up their arguments and even when faced with the true picture, argue for their side.

As far as someone saying that a lot on this new blog obviously have a negative agenda to get across, how true.

Carol, The point about Mr. Zayat was that he is NOT retiring his horses to the breeding shed, like so many are being criticized for. He is selling developed horses to continue running or breed if that's what the person wants to do. What he is doing is injecting life into the horse economy since he is reinvesting in yearlings, not taking the money and running. No he isn't doing it for free, do you do your job for free? If so we'll hire you, even if you know nothing about horses. We'll teach you. Even if you were doing it for pay my hunch is you'd head for the hills in a month because it is a tough job.

Mike Iavarone is trying to reinvest in the horse economy as well. Like them or hate them, they are trying to support the game.

If you knew ANYTHING about horses you could tell that the colt obviously grabbed himself. Unfortunately his inherited thin hoof wall made the injury a little uglier than it would have been otherwise. Also it's very difficult to take someone seriously when they don't even know a horses name. It's ZARKAVA.

These blogs and posts may just be people ruminating, throwing their thoughts out for discussion, but with electronic media being so prevalent, a LOT of new fans, people who aren't really savvy as far as racing goes are taking this stuff as the gospel. A little bit of caution, education and better information on the parts of the posters might be advisable.

Further question, HOW many of you attend the races regularly? How many of you have EVER attended the races? How many of you have ever taken care of a RACE HORSE? How many of you have ever owned, trained or run a race horse at ANY race, let alone a GRADED stakes race? I don't put much credence into the words of people who haven't walked a mile in my shoes. Unfortunately, and I have read this on the other blogs, the casual, new or interested in becoming a fan sees all of this negativity and figures that people who post know what they are talking about and have lived it. NO that's not the case folks, a lot of this is just opinions.

One last thing Michael. The old, overused Kool aid expression is incredibly disrespectful. Never did like it, never did approve of it being said. It's demeans and disrespects a tragic event in history and truthfully the minute I read that, any agreement I may have had with you about too many races at the BC or the Friday filly/mare card, went out the window.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Carol — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:38:37 GMT

Michael, I think you are absolutely right. I believe ultimately its all about a dollar. How many horses are achieving group status and we barely have heard of them and they won't be around long enough for us to remember them. Look at Big Brown, if we are to believe what we are told, he grabbed a quarter, not a career ending injury. Middle of the road horses would be given time and run again next year but of course he must be valuable in the breeding shed to someone. Look at Zavarta, is the Agha Khan running short on funds? Why are we getting tremendous race horses that run briefly and are then sent to be bred. If you have already achieved a great horse why then stop to try and get another. Oh I forgot, its about a dollar. No more Alydar and Alysheba type races.

So nice of Mr Zayat to let the rest of us have a chance at having fun with his good racehorses. Is he selling at a discount?

Sorry to be so cynical.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Bellwether — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:23:43 GMT

venting is good & you do bring up some interesting points for another day...thanks...if we could only win TWO claiming races in a row!!!...i think ANY BLACK TYPE is still Hard as HELL to win...how bout SEVENTEEN in ROW...KUDOS TO PEPPERS PRIDE!!!...GO GIRL!!!...Long Live The Queen!!!

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Kyri — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:58:04 GMT

Huh.

Well, I agree there are probably too many graded stakes, and I definitely agree about the early retirements of breeding prospects being a bad thing.

And I don't like relegating all the female BC races to Friday.

But I honestly can't see the problem with having more races. There was a genuine need, IMO, for a Dirt Mile and Turf Sprint, and that and the 2YO Turf will attract interesting European competitors. I'm not sure we needed a F&M Sprint, but I don't have a huge issue with it, and while the Marathon is arguably quixotic without the supporting stakes races throughout the year, it's a gesture in the right direction, again IMO. Now, I don't want to see them add any *more*, but as far as it goes, I'm fine with it -- and BTW, the new races were not given graded status at all last year. I'm not sure about this year.

I don't have a problem with the synthetic surface. It plays pretty much like dirt. No more horses will fail to handle it than would fail to handle any other track, I think. There's always someone who doesn't like the surface -- Skip Away hated Churchill, AIRC.

I'll be betting both days and attending the event for the first time on Saturday.

My .02.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Michael Nikolic — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:42:17 GMT

Bradgm,

"For those of you who say there are far too many stakes races. Well, the graded stakes committee decides on those, the others are just called stakes races with nice purses for people who might not get that shot."

The whole post was ABOUT the AGSC and how the grading of stakes is skewed. Breeding is the new black. I have no problem with stakes races. Have as many stakes races as you want; I think most of the current graded stakes should just be stakes races.

A graded stakes race should mean something. What have Jazil and Da'Tara done since taking down the Belmont?

I agree with you that we should express ourselves to the powers that be. I think that speaking their language is the only way to do it.

What misinformation is present in the article?

Reasonable people can disagree and I welcome a healthy debate but snide comments do nothing to forward the discussion.

Bighorsefan-I am familiar with the process the AGSC uses to award graded status to a race. The committee is also encouraged to exercise judgement in their decision. According to your criterion, the Belmont should soon be downgraded.

How many juvenile turf preps are there out there? Is it not conceivable that within a few years the juvenile turf will receive graded status?

What do you think will happen to the horse that wins that and wakes up one morning with an abscess?

Thank you all for reading.

We are all passionate about this game and want to see it succeed. Discussion is healthy and disagreement is inevitable.

Decisions are made by those who show up, either way.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Valerie — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:37:19 GMT

Bradgm,

As I posted in the comments section of my original post, the point system I recommend is a completely separate notion from the current BC point system, of which I am fully cognizant (although not through watching “Dreamer”) despite what’s been suggested. The point system I suggest would apply to horses racing at all levels, and the BC races would earn points for horses as well—this point system would determine championship awards, not the winning of a single race. As it stands, the BC point system is lame, barely recognized even by fans during the course of the year, and only has relevance for entry into a BC race. It is meaningless in the greater context of racing during the year, unlike division standings in other professional sports.

There is no misinformation there so rest easy about this group of blogs. We are hardly the anti-Christ trying to take down the sport of horse racing. Just fans who like throwing out new ideas, and our two cents, for the betterment of the sport we love.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

InTheMountains — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:29:46 GMT

Okay, I'm one of those owners. My dream is to make it to the Derby and BC with my partners on the TB and to the All American with my QH partners. As for the TB, I'd have to spend whatever I made on the qualifying races to pay the 125,000 fee. Obviously I'm not in it for the money or to get rich.

dana I'd say you are holding the little guys hostage. Even though it wouldn't be a big bankroll (you said it not me) you're saying to them and everyone in racing that just because the bigwigs aren't doing things the way we think they should we're taking our toys and going home. Every bettor lost is lost revenue. With the economy the way it is every dollar counts. If things keep going the way they are and horse racing keeps getting beat up you're going to have to take your monthly paycheck to support all the horses that'll end up in rescue.

I have two of them, in addition to my race horses, they aren't cheap either.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Bradgm — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:59:15 GMT

dana,

Well I partner a couple of rescued horses and it costs a bundle each month. You said 'sizeable' bank roll. To me, a gambler that really means 'sizeable'.

I agree with you that the economy is the fly in the ointment. My point about the BC and life altering amounts of money was directed to those who think the BC should go away, those people who actually have no control over anymore of it than we do. The horsemen. If you're one of those people(sounded like) then I was talking to you, if not then I wasn't.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Racingfan — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:40:31 GMT

BIGHORSEFAN,

I was not referring to the average owner which I know doesn't make much if any profit. They ARE in it for the love of the game. (I think that was pretty clear when I said selling the colts for "millions" of dollars) I was talking about the ones who CAN afford to be in it for the sport and not the money. IEAH has stated they are in it for the investments which is why they opted to take the money and not run Big Brown next year (prior to his injury). I also know how graded stakes work-I have been following racing over 30 years and I read Blood-Horse and the national stakes conditions. I was even briefly involved in breeding and knew owners and trainers. I said I agree there "may" be too many graded stakes - which in turn detract from one another. My point was that when racing was not a "for profit" venture with the racing families like the Whitney's, Widener's, Mr. Vanderbilt, etc, it was a completely different game and I wish it could return to that on some level. (and yes they all wanted to win money but it was not the primary objective) I also know the horses still run in the big races but they also skip them often-like where was Big Brown in the Traver's? That is the race many of us would have like to see him run in I'm sure. Obviously it's up to them what they do with their horse but it just isn't the way "I" personally like to see it. That's one reason why I think some of the historic races don't seem to be that important anymore.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

dana — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:49:38 GMT

Bradgm, not to worry, the little guys got my money (and presumably the other 4 people's) on the way to the Breeders' Cup. They just won't be getting any of it on the 24th or 25th.

I'd be willing to bet that the current state of the economy will be more responsible for the handle being down than a few alienated players.

And wow, I hardly see how deciding to donate my bank roll to rescue is holding anyone hostage. It's not like I'm not Mike Maloney! Although, It is flattering that you think my bank roll might be life altering to anyone other than a horse or two lucky enough to be saved by one of the many hard working rescue groups out there. Thanks!

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:05:02 GMT

Racingfan,

No it's not all about the money, just ask an owner how much they make on racing. In the U.S. you have to show a profit at least every 7 years or it's considered a hobby, find out how many of them have it as a hobby or are just making ends meet.

Mr. Jackson can afford to be sporting, so can anyone else on Forbes list of richest.

As far as owners and trainers not running at the big races, that's the only way they can get the big bucks for the breeding prospects. Yes maybe they take them to the breeding shed sooner than we'd all like but let one of them tell us when they think we should change jobs or retire and we'd be telling them to shut up. Trainers may get a breeding share so may jockeys but they don't prosper near as much as the owners. Many owners put the money back into the game. Like em or not that's what IEAH wants to do with the BB money. Now we have people wondering if Zayat is getting out of racing because they're selling a ton of horses at the sale. No they just don't want to be in the breeding business and are selling horses that can still run so others can get the same enjoyment and Zayat can start with a bunch of new yearlings.

The Graded Stakes committee only names a certain # of grade 1-3 stakes each year. In fact they wouldn't even grant graded classification to the new BC races last year or this year. The Winstar Derby in Sunland Park is huge purse wise, no grade. Read up on it you'll find out. They don't get the bold type unless they win a graded stakes.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Ed Zepplin — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:49:35 GMT

I stand corrected 99.2% of all horses NEVER win a graded Stakes race! Winning a Graded stakes race for a horse is possible but not probable.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Ed Zepplin — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:34:16 GMT

If you think Graded Stakes races are easy to win anywhere, then you really have no Idea of what you are talking about. 98 % of all horses never win a graded stakes race.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Racingfan — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:52:53 GMT

I am a traditional racing fan who loves the history and prestige of the "former" traditional big races where the major runners meet each other multiple times. I agree there may be too many graded stakes now but I also think in some cases owners or trainers purposely avoid the toughest races to try to keep their runners records as clean as possible for the big bucks they get in the breeding shed. As long as millions of dollars are being offered to retire our 3 year old colts there is no incentive for them to keep racing. It is no longer like the glory days of the past where owners raced horses for the sport with money being a secondary benefit. Now it's all about the MONEY! I don't know what will change that but I hope something does! Mr. Jackson has been a good example of doing the sporting thing! Maybe others will follow. I also wish the Breeder's Cup was Saturday and Sunday as I will have to TiVo Friday which is not the same as watching it live to me. I imagine though that a Sunday card might interfere with football...?

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Bradgm — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:51:29 GMT

Folks by not betting on the race you're hurting more than the powers that be and the wealthy owners. You're hurting the guys who are out there working their butts off everyday. You're hurting the little guy who worked a lifetime to get into a big race like the Breeders Cup, the partnerships of 20-100 people, you're hurting the people who work for the race tracks, etc. Stick to your HIGH principles and do the sport a favor. All 5 of you. Excluding Dale who apparently sees the big picture. For those of you who say there are far too many stakes races. Well, the graded stakes committee decides on those, the others are just called stakes races with nice purses for people who might not get that shot.

As far as Sunday, we'd probably get even less viewers than we will on Friday, NFL football is far bigger on TV than we are. I don't like the Friday filly/mare deal either but expressing our opinions to the powers that be may be the way to go, not hurting the barn help who gets 2-4% of the trainers share of the purse. Life altering amounts of money to a lot of those people.

If you want to rescue a horse do it for the right reasons, not to hold a bunch of people (who have no more control than you do), hostage.

I sort of questioned this group of blogs, now I'm seeing one after the other putting a lot of misinformation out there. First about the BC points in the blog just before now this one.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Robert — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:08:29 GMT

Great idea, if you are betting, your choice, if not, take your bankroll and give it to the horse charity group of your choice.

Vote with your wallet this year.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Michael Nikolic — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:54:46 GMT

Dale,

A few points.

Due to mistakes, entirely of my own making, the post has been amended since you read it. I stand by the content but it was an early draft I submitted in error. I will post the version you saw on my site.

My apologies for the universal reference.

I take issue with your characterization of my work as grousing. I most certainly do not grouse.

I did not write that I was skipping the BC, I'm just not betting on it; my job affords me plenty of leisure time but I am fortunate in that regard.

The issue I have is with the seemingly endless parade of graded stakes winners that go off to stud, while still eligible for a N3L.

I am not betting on the BC because I am passionate about the sport and am tired of seeing it cheapened by the scramble for mediocrity.

If horse players, and I am not including you, want to see change, they can send a resounding message to those in control by hitting them where it hurts.

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

dana — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:40:38 GMT

Dale, to each their own, if you're not bothered by anything the BC has been doing lately, good for you. But you don't see anyone chastising people who are excited about the BC.

I won't be playing or watching either day of the BC this year either... in fact, I'm taking my sizable bank roll and donating it to rescue. If this kind of willingness to not participate in something one can't support in good conscious makes your head explode, then sorry for the mess!

----------------

greenbutgame.org

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Keith - Triple Dead Heat — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:18:18 GMT

This is such a touchy subject and I admire the author for not sitting on the fence and opining in extremely well-written fashion.

I'm in partial agreement.

There are far too many graded races available which make it next to impossible to find a level. Everyone's a winner - almost literally.

That said, the plethora of "Win and You're In" races will hopefully serve its purpose of funneling the best of the best to the BCC.

I don't mind that there are so many BCC races as the championship now represents all specialties. However, the races should be run Saturday and Sunday. People who cannot afford to take a day off work deserve the chance to watch these races live.

Plus, wouldn't the weekend provide a bigger televised audience to showcase the sport?

The linked article deriding the distances for each race makes several good points. However I disagree on the issue of surface. Each course is different and provides its own bias. Whether it's a long stretch run or a too-tight course, there will always be an argument there.

Synthetic surfaces are a part of racing life now and we all will have to get used to it.

Perhaps this author will follow up his post with his own proposed changes to better the championship.

Well done! I look forward to reading more of your work at Gathering The Wind.

--Keith, Triple Dead Heat

re: Why Nobody Else Uses a Circular Firing Squad Anymore

Dale — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:40:41 GMT

Michael,

Come on now. So you're just going to take your bankroll and go home because the Big Day is now the Big Two Days.

If I hear another horse player grouse about not being able to get off work on ONE Friday ONCE in a year I am going to explode. I don't understand how people can be so passionate about this wonderful sport but so reluctant to play hookie on the sport's biggest weekend.

I work too. I am on the clock. But, I save my vacation days for Del Mar and the BC. I would just skip work even if I had no vacation time.

If you skip that Friday in some kind of mis-guided protest then it is your loss, both spiritually and financially.

By the way, I am not made cheaper by anything the BC does, so please don't try to speak for everyone. That seems a bit pretentious and diminishes the point you are trying to convey.