Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

jjr272 — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:39:44 GMT

It boggles the mind why a lot here would discount sea the stars as HOTY.

In the Arc, he destroyed a field that included this and last years french derby winners, this years easy, irish derby winner, last years st leger and BC winner (conduit) and a multitude of grp1 winners.

He's beaten all before him and sometimes more than once.

He's won, arguably, the best 6 grp1 races in europe over distances of 1 mile to 1 1/2 miles over 6 months. Dont take my word for it, listen to the likes of mick kinane who has ridden some great horses who have won arcs,derby's and BC's, who says hes the best hes ridden. Listen to owners, trainers and jockeys who believe he's the best.

Sea the stars isnt a champion, he's a champion slayer and i hope and dream he goes to the BC

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Slew — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:39:04 GMT

Sea the Stars is a FREAK! He

cruises around the track gawking

at the grandstand, checking out the

fans. When it comes down to the final furlongs (when most horses start accelerating through their

higher gears to the line) he puts

his head down and goes directly from cruising speed to overdrive.

There are no in-between gears.

I'm usually stunned when I watch

him race. He just ran ahead of

Fame and Glory and Master Craftsman

for the Irish Championship. Considering that his turf races have been on uphill and downhill courses, can you just

imagine him on a flat track?

Rachel just nipped the older males

in the Woodward...one of the hardest run races I've seen her run. She and STS seem most comfortable at 9 furlongs. Zenyatta

is formidable and she's 12/12.

They are all freaks, and I have to wonder what a race between them would be like????

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:18:26 GMT

I wonder what the excuses are now that Quality Road didn't win the Travers, and Summer Bird did, since QR is such a monster that he should have won @ 1 1/4 with one 6 1/2 furlong race since March? : )

The truth is that all of these awesome horses are 'ducking' one thing or another. RA's connections are avoiding the plastic (though to be fair, Jess Jackson said he didn't want to run his horses on it months before purchasing Rachel Alexandra), and possibly 1 1/4. Sea The Star's connections are avoiding soft ground and extra distance. Zenyatta's connections are avoiding a lot of things. One thing they all have in common is that they seem to be avoiding losses in undefeated seasons, which is unfortunate.

It seems to me that people in the racing industry the world over complain that horse racing is losing fans, and I, for one, can't understand why, when we have a year with such outstanding horses, they aren't being sent on to bigger challenges. Who cares if Zenyatta retires undefeated if the only

people who know about it are those who are already fans of the sport? Who cares if Sea The Stars has an undefeated season when, again, the only people who will ever know are already fans of the sport, and he'll likely disappear into the anonymity of stallion-dom at the end of the season instead of showing just how awesome he could have been as an older horse? Or if he could have been a Triple Crown winner (which is usually enough to make news outside the fan base--and he probably could)? And who cares if Rachel...well, sorry. I can't offer quite as big of a who cares, because she's up against older males next, and who knows where after that? Too bad the World Cup is going plastic too. How cool would that have been? Speaking of, maybe that's what Zenyatta should point for...

Just my ten cents. : )

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Cyd — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 23:16:59 GMT

Ooops people maybe we should not say anyone or horse is great until they run the race. Looks like Summer Bird is great which makes Rachel Alexadra great and Quality Road a really really good horse at 6 1/2 furlongs!

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Abbie Knowles — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 23:28:25 GMT

Yes Jim I used to work at Timeform 1980 - 1983 calculating the ratings for the racecards! p means capable of further improvement! P will improve further. If my memory serves me correct! i did the calculating from the ratings from those who handicapped the horses! I loved that job!!! Was only 18 when I started and very immature so the men in the Editorial Office had much to put up with but were unfailingly kind! Andrew Caulfield who writes about pedigrees on TDN was one of them! Like me he was a big fan of Seattle Slew! Jim McGrath of BHA and C4 racing another! And Graham Dench and Tony Elves of the Racing Post, so I had great mentors!

Timeform like the Bloodhorse is great for racing! I got on well with Phil Bull too! The novelty of being a young woman in a man's world I guess! Though for me the horses were the big attraction!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Karen in Texas — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:49:43 GMT

Jim P---I had wondered about the "p" in the Timeform rankings, too. Their glossary page states that a small "p" means that the horse is likely to improve, while a larger "p" means the horse is capable of much more. There appears to be very little difference in the size of the "p" examples that they use though.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Jim P — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:11:26 GMT

How does Sea The Stars compare to other greats? He has the highest Timeform rating in the last 10 years: 140 Dubai Millenium; 137 Montjeu; 136p Sea The Stars; 136 Hawk Wing, Sakhee; 135 Manduro; 134 Galileo, Hurricane Run, Sinndar, Rip Van Winkle.

Does anyone know what the "p" means in Timeform?

Sea The Stars has it all -- the total package, including a fantastic temperament, though he wants his head early, and plenty of guts and courage. The Juddmonte International brought all those qualities out.

If he comes to the Breeder's Cup I just hope his campaign has not been too demanding. I'd like to see him at his best.

The only downside to this horse is remembering his dam all the time. What a loss Urban Sea was -- with what was to be her last foal. Sh..! What else to say? Her last baby is by Invincible Spirit -- let's hope he lives up to his name. Maybe they will call him Spirit of the Sea.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Abbie Knowles — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:35:11 GMT

Galileo was such a great racehorse and is such a great stallion that it is far too early to say that Sea the Stars is better than him but he is a phenomenon.

Apparently Mastercraftsman was out on his feet after that epic encounter in the Juddmonte and Sea the Stars was strutting around as though he knew he had won and had barely had a race. It does come easily to him, he is very intelligent and he has the most wonderful temperament. Nothing bothers him. He reminds me of Cigar in that respect!

i sincerely hope he stays in training and that a change of heart sees him in the St Leger although that may be sheer optimism even by my standards!

God Bless

best wishes

Abbie

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

ace — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:18:28 GMT

Wish the top horses wouldnt just run once vs each other, rather once on each of their favorite surfaces.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Ida Lee — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:20:40 GMT

Incredible athlete. Wish he raced in America. He's gorgeous too.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Josh — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:32:44 GMT

The Travers is the most prestigous race for 3yos after the KY Derby and worth 1 million dollars. Yeah your right lets run against older horses for 500k or the Penn Derby instead. If what the people say is true, that Rachael can beat anybody at any distance, then why haven't they entered her in the Million dollar race. Please don't use the excuse Kensei is going to run there. The real reason is Quality Road and Jackson doesn't want to see her lose. People just remember this, Medaglia D'Oro himself ran 1 1/4 or further 7 times and won once @ 75 cents on the dollar by a half length against the legendary horse Repent. Jackson wants Rachael at a 1 1/8 because that is her best distance distance just like her DAD. I understand the whole thing and as a person who has watched horse racing for 40 years, I have never seen anything like Jackson considering running a horse he paid 10 million for a portion of in a race worth considerable less money when his horse will be 3/5 to win.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

ABZ — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 00:50:56 GMT

I have a great deal of doubt Kathryn.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Cheryl. Newmarket — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:06:00 GMT

Sea The Stars may not have been visually impressive in his races, but all his victories have been with ease and against top class horses.

If you listen to the post race interviews you will hear Mick Kinane say that StS was idling because he finds it all too easy. He had to give him a few cracks with the whip to wake him up and set him about his task.

Don't forget he broke the track record yesterday.

He is a horse in a lifetime and I only hope he runs again here in Britain so I can see him in the flesh again.

His younger sibling, a foal by Invincible Spirit, will be worth an absolute fortune should the Tsui family choose to sell him.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Kathryn — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:45:43 GMT

Best horse in the world...no doubt.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Ranagulzion — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:42:44 GMT

Gun Bow,

I understand your point but that is not the only perspective that HOTY voters may have. HOTY is intended to crown the REAL champion of the sport that has graced the track in America, not a "tactical champion". HOTY voters will not be outsmarted by connections who duck competition against the best while piling up "win" statistics. HOTY considerations should not compromise quality (no pun intended).

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

John T. — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:11:17 GMT

I was sorry to hear that Urban Sea

died from foaling complications.Her

record as a broodmare was outstanding as well as being a grade 1 winner on the racetrack herself.It certainly is beginning to look like Sea The Stars has been the best of her offspring.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Virgil Fox — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:36:42 GMT

Link to race?

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Marcia — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:28:40 GMT

Sea the Stars is indeed a spectacular European star; but, American Horse of the Year? I think not. How can you award a horse that, if he won the Classic, HTY honors? We have different classification for end of years honors for a reason. The best sprinter of the world would lose a classic distance race, and a turf great would lose a dirt race. European horses run and are trained almost entirely on the turf and now with "plastic" surfaces (as Jess would say) some turf horses do very well. So, how can we say who is the best. Competition, race record and such I understand, but..... And I am completely against Eurpopean horses winning one Breeders Cup race and getting our American title of any sort.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

LDP — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:08:55 GMT

Josh,

As of now neither Zenyatta or QR have run that far yet. What if QR looses at the 1 1/4 distance, what then. Zenyatta has never been that far in her entire career so far, and she's five. To state RA must race against two horses and beat them at a distance they are unproven at, to become legit is rediculous. If QR wins the Travers, she still does not have to beat him to do anything. In his absence she came on stage and took command, if he wants the spotlight back he must face her where she pleases. Zenyatta, you want to talk about hand picking races thats your best example. She has raced three times against who Annabas Creation. The horse couldn't win a group one in England so the sent her over here to Cali because they knew how weak the division was. This is like what was going on with Red Rocks, he can't win over in England, so they bring him here hoping for softer competition. LIS is no longer a fresh horse and she showed that in her last start. You say lets stop all the hypothetical talk yet you sit there and do it yourself.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Pam R — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:49:27 GMT

I can't believe how many people are so down on Rachael just cause Sea the Stars and Quality Road have just had some impressive victories. Rachael has already won more races than Sea the Stars has even been in, and has done so with incredible ease. I do believe Quality Road is a very good horse, but he has not done enough yet to convince me he's necessarily better than her. Rachael's Haskell was very impressive. She almost broke a record and in the slop, too yet. She has shown that she can handle just about anything. I think now she needs to face Quality Road in the Travers, or race against older males. Quality Road might actually give her something to compete against. As far as calling Sea the Stars the best horse in the world, I don't think you can truly give him that title yet. He runs on a different type of surface and should not avoid the off tracks. To prove he's a great one, he needs to conquer even those. Until then, it's hard to argue against how great Rachael is.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

GunBow — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 07:29:06 GMT

Josh:

You criticize Rachel Alexandra because Jess Jackson may pick a race with a shorter distance, yet fail to acknowledge that Sea the Stars scratched out of the Irish Derby(and another matchup with the very classy Fame and Glory) when Oxx thought the ground came up too soft, and that OXX appears to be pointing Sea the Stars for a race at a shorter distance than the St. Leger(bypassing a shot at the Triple Crown, if it has any meaning anyways).

Ranagulzion:

Sea the Stars will not be the US Horse of the Year, even if he wins the Classic. Rachel has had too good of a season running throughout the US for voters to give the award to a horse that made one start in North America. Sea the Stars may get champion Older Male(given the weakness of that division), but no way he wins HoY; winning North America's highest honor off only one race on the continent has never happened, and would make for bad precedence. Eclipse voters have given divisional awards to one-race Euros, but never the Horse of the Year. And they are not going to do it this year when an American horse, Rachel, is doing things not seen by a 3 year old filly in 60 years(Busher).

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Ranagulzion — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:48:37 GMT

Abbie Knowles,

I share your views that Sea The Stars should be pointed to the St. Leger (3rd jewel of the English triple crown). The owner of this amazing 3YO colt is a young man who perhaps doesn't understand what a monumental and historically significant achievement it would be for his classy charge to cop the event. The horse's performances are so reminescent of the great Nijinsky II of 40 years ago. I sincerely wish that there is a change of heart because rare/phenomenal horses like Sea The Stars will overcome their age group going long on sheer class as Nijinsky did in the 1970 St Leger.

If Sea The Stars were to show up for this years Breeder's Cup Classic to face Quality Road (in the likelihood of the latter sweeping the Travers and Jockey Club Gold Cup), the current HOTY front runner, RA, by skipping the BCC would find herself in an interesting quagmire of a contest that she could very much lose to either of these colts. That would be an unfortunate twist of fate for the "flying filly" but her competitors for HOTY are also once-in-a-lifetime sorts. What an intriguing year of top class racing we're having.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

scarletandgraypimpernel — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:31:42 GMT

The only issue with this horse is his connections unwillingness to run him on soft ground. He was pulled out of the Irish Derby because of the give in the turf. Oxx has been saying for months that an Arc run is not assured because it tends to be damp in Paris come October. That might be to our gain as the Breeders' Cup has always been mentioned as a possible, if not probably destination.

As for next year, I thought I had read where they were seriously considering a 4YO campaign. This is not Ballydoyle or Godolphin, so they don't have as big as breeding interest as the two goliaths.

As for comparisions to Dancing Brave--Dancing Brave's hightest timeform was 140. STS is at 136. So, in the same ballpark, but a ways to go.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

ABZ — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:31:08 GMT

He will only run if the turf is not soft...that doesn't bode well for a trip to the Arc.

re: Horses Americans Should Know VII - Sea the Stars

Josh — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:59:35 GMT

Why do people continue hypotheticals? Jess Jackson hasn't even decided to run against Quality Road at 1 1/4 for 1 million. He want his horse in races she has all the advantages. Sea The Stars is the best horse in the world! He doesn't compete against bad older horses, or sprinters trying to go a 1 1/8. The real good horses in Europe aren't overrated they are legit. Until Rachael faces Zenyatta or Quality Road at 1 1/4 or even Gio Ponti then hypotheticals can be addressed. There is a reason Jackson hasn't committed to the Travers yet, because QUALITY ROAD is a BEAST!