Remembering...Spectacular Bid

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Carlos in Cali — Fri, 05 Feb 2010 02:42:16 GMT

Like Vic S. has mentioned,Seattle Slew was superior to Affirmed and Affirmed was superior to the Bid'.Plain & simple.These 2 couldn't keep up with Slew' on their best day if all were in prime form.No way. Seriously folks...who in their right minds runs a horse 3wks after sweeping the grueling Triple Crown?...they were asking to get beat that day in the Swaps.I hope the Taylors' spent the extra 'Appearance Bonus' wisely that they received from Hollywood Park to showcase that yr's TC Champion...they almost killed him.

Seattle Slew is and forever will be the Greatest Racehorse/Stallion combined...bar none!

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

LAZMANNICK — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:03:53 GMT

Footlick:

I agree with you about the Euro horses. I never say much about them in my posts because I usually talk about N/A horses. And the fact the the Euros race primarily or turf an many of the good N/A horses on dirt, it's kind of difficult to bring the arguement together. And then, of course, there are the Japanese and Chinese horses and the Australians.....so much to chose from. LOL

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

RGBSA — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:53:51 GMT

@ Vic S. I can't argue too much with you as 'Slew is in my opinion one of the two best horses I have ever seen and he always reminded me of what Walter Farley's immortal character, The Black Stallion, would have been like if he had been real, especially when 'Slew went into his post parade 'War Dance'.

Affirmed always had my respect and would rank in the top 3 in the 70's in my book, but most horse experts were in agreement in 1980 that they could not believe how Affirmed ever beat The 'Bid. No knocks on Affirmed, but just praise for how great The Bid was.

The 70's were a great period and maybe the 50's could rival it some with the stars of those days. In my opinion, no other timeframe has been able to capture the excitement of that 70's decade...

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Footlick — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:20:18 GMT

drfager01- I said out of those four horses- not the fourth best ever. I was commenting about Man O War, Spectacular Bid, Tom Fool and Cigar, as per a previous post. I would never put Cigar that high. I won't rank my picks because I would include a few European horses and a couple that people may not agree with, but Cigar is not one of them.

Rachel- since we are all quoting Mr Shoemaker on this blog, he told everybody a week before the Swaps that he didn't care who showed up- nobody was going to beat JO Tobin that day. And it was a huge race that JO Tobin ran and it is never given it's due because Seattle Slew ran a sub-par race.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Joan Ccowin — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:33:48 GMT

Spectacular Bid was one of my fathers favorites... I remember when he used to read an article about that horse that he would be all smiles and when he watched him race he would say "now thats what a real champion looks like"....Thanks for the blog on this topic....

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

LAZMANNICK — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 16:57:16 GMT

Dr Fager

I kind of agree with you in that I don't hold Cigar in the same awe that I hold many of those greats of the seventies, but in fairness he wasn't much on the turf. He broke his maiden on dirt and then raced 11 consecutive times on turf, managing to win an allowance race and was blown away in the G-1 Hollywood Derby. It was when he switched back to dirt that the real Cigar showed up. He ran his final 19 races on it, never had a Beyer lower than 104, that first race back was the start of his 16 race win streak which included 10 G-1's (he won an 11th in his 3rd last race, the Woodward), he won a BC Classic, the Dubai World Cup and in his last two races, the JCC and the BC Classic, he was second and third and each time by a neck. Not too shabby, but based against the over all level of his competitors, not top ten as far as I am concerned.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Bill Daly — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:09:54 GMT

Ronnie Franklin just wasn't ready for prime time or Angel Cordero during that Triple Crown run-up. He had some real talent, but was raw and it really showed when Angel had a horse in the same race such as the Florida Derby. Between Delp browbeating the kid and Cordero intimidating him he lost his cool and only won that race because he had tons the best horse. It's a shame in a way that he ever got on the Bid. He wasn't ready for that circus and perhaps his life would have taken a better course without that crucible.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Richie — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:55:39 GMT

PN: Thank you for saving me a lot of typing. You are right on about Bud Delp and the way his barn was run. I was working at Delpark in 1978 for a real horseman- the late, great Richard E Dutrow. Many times we would go and visit "Bid" or watch him work. It is just amazing to me that he overcame a mediocre trainer and a really bad jock to almost win the TC-and would have except for the damn pin-no excuse at all for that except bad help as far as I'm concerned.

Those times are long gone but are among the best of my life. This blog brought back tons of great memories of being on track.Thanks, everyone. BTW the statement of Bud Delp that I never argue with is that Bid "...was the best horse to look through a bridle" Looking back over the years, I'm not sure that he wasn't right.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Bill Daly — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:42:03 GMT

I well remember the Bid and particularly remember the buzz around Maryland for the Laurel Futurity. Jockeys, agents, trainers, fans, etc. all packed the track apron right up to the fence in order to see this great horse race that day. I remember the awe in which he was held by even the most grizzled of track veterans. The Sunday prior to the 1978 Preakness the management of Pimlico in an uncommonly brilliant public relations ploy actually let the public in free to view Bid's workout. I don't know how many people were there, but the place was packed. It was a very dark, gray day and the Bid was almost camoflaged by the weather. It wasn't much as workouts go, but the excitement of just being there was something I will never forget. I knew that whatever this horse did was something history would remember. Delp in all of his brashness may just have been right about Bid: he just may have been the best horse who ever looked through a bridle.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Rachel — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:03:18 GMT

Vic S, you are so right about SS, it was his OWNERS who got him beat in that race 3 weeks after his TC campaign...SS was a great race horse, those of you who never got to see him saw glimpses of his fire in his grgrandson Tiznow, who really does remind me of him.

Some of you who revel in dissing the greats...why can't you just celebrate the joy and success?

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

dr fager01 — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:35:06 GMT

Footlick! you must be mad, cigar 4th best, what! are you drinking dude,look at cigar 3 year old season the horse WON 2 out of 9 races, and ran an average beyer about 89. as he proceeded at the end of his 4 year old season into his undefeated 5 year old season. the problem i am having with cigar is he beat the devil his dues, the concerns who were better in 94 than they were in 95, cigar during his streak went on to beat a bunch of allowance caliber horses that we never heard of since. in the 95 bcc he defeated le'carriere, who the hell is le'carriere, by the time cigar got to the track and winning, the best horse of that era had broken down, holy bull, it seems that whenever cigar faced top company he lost, remember skip away, and remember the mugging the legendary richard mandella with his charges, the speed demon siphon, and classy son of alydar dare and go put on him. on that day had cigar let siphon go on the lead he siphon would have gone gate to wire, there is little chance cigar would have passed siphon in the stretch since cigar never passed another horse down the strech during his streak, he always had to have the lead at the 3/8ths pole coming for home. i give cigar top 35 for all he accomplished, had that monster holy bull stayed healthy your comments would be about a gray bull, not cigar.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

GunBow — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:42:42 GMT

To me, Affirmed is about as underrated as a two-time Horse of the Year and Triple Crown winner can be. Affirmed was a champion at 2, 3, and 4, and won big races in the East, West, and Midwest. During his championship campaigns at 2 and 3, Affirmed had to face another Hall of Famer, Alydar, 10 times(winning 7), so he really had to earn his victories. He won grade 1s from 6.5 to 12 furlongs, carried weight, and is famous for winning tight finishes. Both his Hall of Fame trainer, Laz Barrera, and his two great jockeys, Steve Cauthen and Laffit Pincay, rate Affirmed the best they had.

As for the 2 Horse of the Year's, it is true that one horse receiving more votes than another does not necessarily mean the former was better, or even had a better season than the latter(Think Rachel vs. Zenyatta- there are still plenty of people who view Zenyatta the superior horse and believe she had the best 2009). However, shouldn't we place something in the fact that more voters, evaluating the horses contemporaneously and not 30 years after the fact, voted for Affirmed over Seattle Slew in 1978 and for Affirmed over Spectacular Bid in 79'?

In the Affirmed-Seattle Slew debate, many point to their two matchups in the Marlboro Cup and Jockey Club Gold Cup and Slew's dominating displays of early speed as proof Slew was the superior horse. Yet, while it is true that Slew was unquestionably superior to Affirmed on those two occassions, it should be mentioned that Affirmed had run 9 times prior to the Marlboro Cup that year(in California, Kentucky, Maryland, and New York), including 4 slugfests against Alydar. Combined with 9 starts as a 2 year old, 6 against Alydar, one could make the case that Affirmed was tailing off by the time of the 78' Marlboro Cup. In his first after winning the Triple Crown, Affirmed struggled to reel in the talented, but distance challenged Sensitive Prince in the Jim Dandy, scoring by only half a length(while carrying 128 lbs). Next, in the Travers, Affirmed crossed the wire first, but after Pincay had dangerously crossed Affirmed infront of Alydar on the far turn, costing Alydar at least 3 lengths, it is difficult to say what the result would have been. Interestingly, Alydar's trainer, John Veitch, was extremely confident going into the Travers, believing Affirmed was in decline following the Jim Dandy and that his horse was reaching his peak after a 10 length win over older horses in the Whitney. Veitch has since maintained that Alydar was certain to have defeated Affirmed in the Travers had Alydar not be interfered with.

Whatever the reasons, it appears Eclipse voters did forgive Affirmed for his late season troubles, perhaps believing his demanding campaign had finally taken its toll, and he was awarded Horse of the Year over Seattle Slew

Given a 3 month break after his debacle in the 78' Jockey Club Gold(Affirmed's saddle slipped early in the race, although to me it did not appear that he could have kept up with Seattle Slew that day anyways), Affirmed and jockey Steve Cauthen continued to slump, losing both the Malibu and San Fernando stakes by over 2 lengths. Then, whether it was because Cauthen was replaced with Pincay or because Affirmed had needed those two races, Affirmed got into full gear. Affirmed would win the final 7 starts of his career.

Affirmed began the streak by winning the gr.1 Strub by 10 then won the Big Cap by 4.5 lengths in 1:58 and 3 under 128 lbs, defeating the likes of Tiller and Exceller. He next won the 8.5 furlong gr.1 Californian carrying 130 lbs. by 5 in 1:41 and 1 and concluded the California portion of his campaign by winning the Hollywood Gold Cup in 1:58 and 2 carrying 132 lbs. Following an allowance victory at Belmont, Affirmed then won the Woodward by an easy 2.5 lengths over Coastal and Czaravich, and concluded his career with the Jockey Club Gold Cup victory over the Bid'.

In each one of Affirmed's 3 championship seasons, he ran on both coasts, and defeated a parade of all-star horses.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

jkmooreelle — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:36:36 GMT

Yes Man O War was three. 11 for 11 and carried up to 138 lbs. For me though, it the way THE BID closed out his career, with a walkover. I believe its the only grade 1 walkover in the history of the sport.One of two walkovers granted in the last 60 years in a significant race. Running unopposed, now I call that domination!

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Vic S — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 16:09:51 GMT

@RGBSA - I don't think anyone would argue that Seattle Slew was not at his best when losing to Dr. Patches, coming off a near death experience and winning just a pair of allowance races. He needed a tightener and yes he lost but he wasn't at his peak level of fitness and needed that race to get him there. Lets not forget he carried 14 more lbs than Dr. Patches and lost by a neck. I'd have to disagree by saying you can't be the greatest when your best race comes as a loss. Also, I never said his JCGC was his best race, I said it was the best 1 1/2 race I have ever seen, it even trumps Secretariat's 1 1/2 tour de force in the Belmont. As for Slew's greatest race, its a hard call but his Derby was absolutely unbelievable. No horse, and I mean NO horse in the history of horseracing that would have had his trip in the Kentucky Derby would have won, yet Slew did just that. He won, and on the front end in fast fractions. A favorite quote of mine about Slew's Derby is as follows from horseracing historian Jim Bolus "A lesson in excuses; great horses don't need them." As I said before if you know the story of Seattle Slew you will know the horse wasn't right for the Swaps out west, and the trainer deserpately tried to stop the connections from running him, yet they ran, he lost and it caused chaos amoung the Slew crew. Turner was fired, Slew was sick, and it would take the entire winter to even find out if the horse was going to live. Not only did he live, he went on to race at the highest levels (even though it took time to get back to that level, like I said he needed allowance races to help tighten him up) but he did get there and went on to cement his legacy. Then after retirement he became an all-time great sire. Seattle Slew is truly unbelievable.

As for Secretariat, I am in total agreeance with you on how he would have been as a 4 year old. He would only win 4 of 6 after the TC, and lost to much lesser horses. People can say all they want about his training prior to his loss to Prove Out, but Prove out ran a hell of a race when he beat Big Red. I really don't know if Secretariat was going to beat him that day with or without "excuses" if you look at the all-time great horses(say a horse in a personal top 10 list) in terms of win-loss ratio at their peak. I bet none, have a higher loss percentage than Secretariat in their peak year of racing. One can't fail to acknowledge this.

As for Bid's 7 to 10 furlong record. It truly is unbelieveable, my arguement wasn't about his talent. I was simply stating that IMO I don't think he could take down Seattle Slew or Affirmed. I should be able to say though that due to his loss to Affirmed in the 1 1/2 JCGC that he wasn't capable of beating the horse. He simply couldn't get past him. Also, I don't buy that the Bid wasn't a great 1 1/2 horse. Coastal was amazing at 1 1/2, but Bid was better. The pin and jockey lost him the Belmont, not himself. Affirmed made Bid lose the JCGC. Not only did he finish ahead of Coastal he beat him by open lengths (3 I believe) when he lost to Affirmed. We can't look past that Affirmed was never getting past Slew. They could have raced 100 times and he was never going to beat him. Slew toyed with Affirmed in the Marlboro, and even though Affirmed saddle slipped in the JCGC, it looked as if Cauthen was doing just fine with having control of the horse until the final turn and Slew was still having his way with Affirmed at every stage of the race. Affirmed's stable sent out 3 horses to go help Affirmed win. Yet, that didn't help and Slew had the race in control then Exceller ran a good 1/2 length past him and Slew battled back in the final 1/16th only lost by a nose. At any distance, I really don't see any change in the outcome between Slew, Affirmed, and the Bid. Especially with speed (Slew and Affirmed) on the front end the shorter distances won't hurt them even had Bid been in the race. Everyone is entitled to their opinion so now you have mine. All three are great horses, in terms of ranking them though it goes by an individual's personal credetials of what they think a better horse has over another.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Mike S — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 06:29:30 GMT

Vic S, I'm going to agree with you that SEATTLE SLEW should not have been in the Swaps Stakes, and the blame all goes to his owners who went against the trainer's wise advice and ran him there anyway. And after they made that wrong decision the owners basically fired the trainer and the jockey. What a classy way that was for them to thank the trainer and jockey for winning the Triple Crown. That whole episode is one of the most nasty and ungrateful series of events in the history of horse racing. I'm just saying it, factually, not trying to be overly harsh.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Footlick — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:52:35 GMT

Laz- after Shoe rode Dr Fager the second time, he said he didn't want to ride him anymore because he felt he was uncontrolable. He also maintained that Swaps was the fastest horse he ever rode.

jkmooreelle- wasn't Man O War a three year old in 1920 or am I wrong. He carried tons of weight and ran against everybody, and as a 3 yr old. To me, that is the more impressive of those four, but just my opinion. In fact, out of those four, Cigar would be 4th best and I would tie Tom Fool and Spectacular Bid and give the edge to Man O War.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

jkmooreelle — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 21:19:31 GMT

Thanks Brian for the wonderful article on THE BID. To make a case who was the greatest is subjective and fruitless. I will put in my two cents worth. Too much emphasis is put on the Triple Crown series that are restricted to three year olds only. Not to diminish the eleven horses that accomplised this great feat, but there have been four horses that have gone undefeated while running full schedules in the much more difficult handicap divison- Man O'War-1920, Tom Fool-1953,Spectacular Bid-1980, Cigar-1995.Out of the four THE BIDS 1980 race years tops them all.IMHO.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

LAZMANNICK — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 19:33:13 GMT

I don't know about Shoemaker and Dr. Fager. He rode him in his 4th and 5th races as a 2 year-old and never after that. I'm not arguing about the Bid being top rate becaue he was, but Dr. Fager, in my mind, was as good as any horse ever. especially when you consider his record, the top horses he raced against, his times and the weight he carried. His last eight races he carried 130 lbs. plus and won all but one (the Brooklyn Hdcp. to Damascas). In his last race he won the Vosburgh carrying 139 lbs. and got the 7-F in 1.20.1 after doing the first 6-F in 1.07.4 at Aqueduct. The tracks records there for the distances are 1.07.2 an 1.20 straight......It's so tough to try and figure out who relly was the better horse and you can say that for a dozen or so of them.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

RGBSA — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:26:20 GMT

Vic S, you have your favorite in Seattle Slew and kudos to you. Slew was a great racehorse and a champion. The beatings he put on Affirmed were so significant that it took the 'iron-willed' Affirmed no less than two additional races to regain confidence and start winning again. His narrow loss to Exceller in the 1978 JCGC was his best race in his career, but you can't be the greatest when your best effort came in a loss. His loss to Dr Patches was something you can't sweep under the carper. 'Slew's record as a 4 yr-old was simply less than stellar. His lone try out west was a disaster as Slew simply got run off his feet from gate to wire.

Secretariat was less than .500 against older horses on the dirt in 1973 so my jury will forever be out as to what kind of 4 year-old he would have been, especially with Forego coming into his own. Secretariat never ventured further west than Chicago so we don't know if he would have been brilliant, effective or a bust out west.

No horse in my memory can make the boast of being undefeated in ALL races they ran from 7 to 10 furlongs. If one removes those two 12 furlong races, the Bid would have had an unheard of 22 race winning streak in graded stakes from coast to coast. The World Record on dirt at 1-1/4 miles that has stood for nearly 30 years speaks for itself. That is with the two village idiots associated with him. Buddy Delp was never nor will he ever be considered one of the better trainers out there. Ronnie Franklin was... let's just say lead weight in the Bid's saddle cloth pouches would have ridden him better.

To impress Bill Shoemaker as the greatest of them all, a man who rode Swaps, Round Table, Dr Fager, Forego, Ack Ack, Arts & Letters, Quack, Exceller, Cougar II, Agitate, Kennedy Road, etc, and saw all of the great ones from the 50's, 60's 70's and 80's, you have to sit up and take notice.

All of the great ones have an argument you can make against them. But nobody can make an argument against Spectacular Bid's unblemished record from 7 furlongs to 1-1/4 miles. None of the others can come close to matching it. That is what makes him the King of the 70's. I will not ever say of all-time, that is an irresponsible comment by individual who are too quick to judge (dr fager01, shame on you) since NONE of us has seen every horse who ever raced or will race. It is my fervent hope that we have one greater or just as great as The Bid in our foreseeable future.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

J O Tobin — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 12:40:12 GMT

Yes, Vic S, I do recall a horse named Seattle Slew.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Vic S — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 05:43:53 GMT

To clear this up before it comes a problem I, Vic S am not Vic, as the poster under me has no S after name. Just to let all know.

@Rangulzion - Slew was caught after blitzing fractions of 22.4. 45.1, 109.3, 201.4, this is on an incredibly sloppy track Exceller caught him at the head of the stretch and got 1/2 length on him, yet still Slew battled back to lose by a nose. He does not lose head to head, Exceller was 20 some lengths back I didn't see him head to head. Slew got caught on the wire but he was the best horse in the race, no one should argue this. His other close loss was to Dr. Patches, whom Slew gave 14 lbs, and coming back to non-allowance compettion after his near death experience the winter before. Slew was the best horse in both races, and most certainly was more game than both the horses that beat him. Head to head, neither Bid nor Affirmed can match him.

@Mike S - I said Bid had a better SEASON at 4 then Slew and Affirmed. I said at four Slew and Affirmed were both better than Bid at 4. Season isn't a horse. As for Slew getting "run off his feet by JO Tobin", we must really look deeper into this accusation. He most certainly did have the worse loss of his career. The horse wasn't right for the race and the trainer told the Taylors not to run, they got carried away ran him anyways when the horse wasn't even ready and he got beat. The only thing that got him beat was his owners, Turner was right and he should have never ran. Especially only 3 weeks after winning the Belmont!!!! That just wasn't right.

As for top 5 of 70's mine goes as follows:

1- Seattle Slew

1A- Secretariat

3- Affirmed

4- Spectacular Bid

5- Forego

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

sceptre — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 05:34:20 GMT

Not wishing to knock Ack Ack; he was a top horse (relative to others that year, when he was 5), but showed nothing all that special until he was 5. He won a couple of big races in California that year, but the competition wasn't that much, and he got loose on the lead. I can give a fairly long list just off the top of my head who were all better. Even his son, Broad Brush, was a better horse. Here's just a few who were better- War Admiral, Count Fleet, Nashua, Sysonby, Bimelech, Blue Larkspur, Ghoszapper, Cigar, Gallant Fox, Cougar, Round Table, Bold Ruler, Colin. I could go on. To offer an example of lesser lights- I'd easily rate Ridan and Jaipur superior to Ack Ack. Most of the leading 3 yr. olds of their years were better horses, including many females.

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

Bill Smith — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 05:15:15 GMT

I don't believe a person can really say who the greatest horse of all time was,since so many horses have done so many incredible things.But if I had to name a name it would be Spectacular Bid.

We don't know what Secretariat would have done as a 4 year old, but we know what the Bid did.

He was simply...SPECTACULAR!

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

LAZMANNICK — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:35:08 GMT

Footlick:

Don't forget, Buckpasser missed the Triple Crown races and would have been favored to win all three. he still managed to beat the Triple Crown winners before the year ended. LOL

re: Remembering...Spectacular Bid

dr fager01 — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 04:26:01 GMT

SCEPTRE, what disrespect for a alltime great,ACK ACK was a speed demon with much class, what disrespect. SEATTLE SLEW did carry 142 lbs in the fall high weight what about that, by the way slew almost died of illness that year, to comback to the track and win like that was impressive, what he went through would have killed most horses, or turned thier form so far south they would never run again, thanks to the tireless work of then trainer the late douglass peterson, my friend.