Where are All the Stars?

re: Where are All the Stars?

Skip — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 03:11:26 GMT

I hope you get your horse you want.

I sincerely mean that.

But, your sarcasm falls short. I wasn't trying to one-up you, it just works out that way. You have mentioned all of your connections, your millionaire friend and your lavish lifestyle long before I did. You wanted me to validate that I do have horses, do have a couple of breeding farms and what I didn't mention was a small ranch with oil wells. LOL

Well you asked and when I didn't answer sufficiently or seemed to have something comparable or better you got a bit snippy.

Maybe you realize don't ask or insist if you don't want to know?

My experience has been with people who offer up that much info and attempt to force others to prove their worth, are usually not too happy or don't really have what they claim.

Sarcasm isn't your forte and I'm sure you're a very nice person, even though your claims sound remarkably similar to some others on here.

What I have, I've worked hard for as have my entire family and we've had some good fortune along the way.

I do wish you happiness and hope you enjoy everything you have in your life.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Sat, 11 Jun 2011 01:30:45 GMT

1 degree BS--Biology-- not many

Here's the deal--I know nothing or anyone about or in the game--I had low priced claimers except one who won a 50K claimer and allowance on a B track.

I'm sorry I would of have been thrilled owning part of a horse that may be running in the biggest harness race in the country with a million dollar purse and has won stakes and $200K already--and actually was asked to buy in for $8000--hardly a $5,000,000 horse. If he runs he will be an outsider with little chance.

They're is no big name trainers that took edges in the history of racing--I was wrong to air a suspicion.

Dancer's Image was disquified from the Derby---I do NOT like the trainer personally but do know him and rode his stable pony as a young boy and was around his stable in summers because of my dad. He was the hardest working trainer I ever saw and a great horseman, never a day when I was around do he not even check the cheapest of claimers. I --like you-- know he didn't anything wrong personal feelings aside. Again-He was the most honest hard working trainer I ever saw who wouldn't dream of cheating or did he need to. I think a few people thought he did---were you one that ever wondered not knowing him???---"Personally"---for the record--I didn't like Lou because he was cheap and a cry baby if he lost a $20 bet. Honest as the day was long and I defend him---and again if you missed it--I did not or do like him when we crossed paths when I was an adult. Last check he is still alive and well in retirement--he is my Lukas wronged if you want to feel better. Even then he only won 1 KY Derby and ahd to give it back--2nd in the Belmont---again you are better as your man won much more.

You win, you're better.

Have a good life. Wish you well as I do anyone---Have no fears after this weekend my wife and 4 yr will be spending time in a lakehouse with a dock and pool. Even here I am a claimer man--my friend is divorcing and rented it to me for less than an mothly air condition bill because he doesnt want his wife and her new boyfriend to go there. I bought a small boat and plan to spend weekends there so won't see any races for a while nor blog after tomorrow.

Take care

re: Where are All the Stars?

Skip — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:42:35 GMT

I don't have to read slowly. You need to learn to write, spell and make your thoughts more lucid.

I'm pretty sure that someone with a couple of advanced degrees can read and comprehend well written comments.

Most of our Stakes winners were TB's a couple were QH. I'm not the one bringing up all of my connections, you asked I told you a bit. Being on an internet and not knowing how crazy you are I'm not divulging any identifiers.

What questions didn't I answer? Don't most people in other professions take it up as a hobby? Although two members of my immediate family could be called professional, one having trained race horses and another with a degree in an equine affiliated industry and a true horse trader in the old sense of the word.

Just let me say my family is a mix of educators, medical professionals, businessmen etc.

As far as how many RACE horses we have owned? Too numerous to count. Some I can't even recall that well unless I pull out their WC pictures. Who owns or owned them? Myself, my parents, partnerships with others, my siblings and a mix of people, close friends, extended family and an ex. But I don't consider those friends et al as being our horses.

Cheap claimers, not really, we've stayed away from them.

If you frequent the sales maybe you know a friend or two of mine, one and his partner in particular who sold a broodmare for $5 million a few years ago and another who is a regular sales agent.

If you're thinking out loud as you put it, maybe you'd want to think twice then write?

What do I have to apologize for? I said you speculated without being fully informed and that still holds true.

My comment about the harness horses was just an innocent comment based on your comment. I mentioned my preference for excitement and so on.

I'm not the least bit familiar with the Canadian HOF, I do know at least one horse who ran there and one trainer fairly well. The trainer mostly from reputation, the horse very well.

However I do know several HOF trainers, living and deceased as well as the same in jockeys.

Still I don't see what you being a big player in Canadian horse racing qualifies you to make assumptions. That was what my whole original comment was.

Also I'm not on here telling everyone how to think or write or how many people I know and who is suspicious, just out of the blue.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 19:46:31 GMT

My writing skills and spelling sometimes lacking for the 5th time---your reading skills are seemingly worse.

YES- EP TAYLOR KNEW MY NAME and liked me. Was I a great friend with the "then" 8th richest man in the world-NO. I worked for him as his "messenger" and as my sight was better than his because he was older then-- called races ala Carl Nafzger for him many times when his horses ran---we also talked horses and breeding---not just a go-for never did he treat me like a pion--but I was hardly in his will- Read Slowly.--- He owned 3 tracks and I know 2 others that do--one knows me to see me and by name but I am not a good friend. Actually I will go as far as to say we don't like each other. I don't hate anyone just avoid some.

Did I or do I know HOF inductees- yes--read slowly---2 alive ---friends---not casually--another 2 are dead---I was in the picture of a graded stakes winner last year---I did not know the owner---just the trainer said come along into the winners circle when I was on vacation. He is in the Canadian racing HOF -known him since my teens--he sent me a copy of the picture a few weeks later---by mail because he knows my address. Friends do keep in touch.

Read Slowly--the "owner" of my company owns "harness horses" as well as thoroughbreds---read slowly--- I have owned 12 and 21 whichever way you would like to count it--thoroughbred races horses from above READ SLOWLY

Me alone--I owned 12 racehorses-- outright 1975-2008--I think 21 if you count partners---we did take back the same horse 2 times we lost in claiming but I am only counting him as 1--as above Blue Snow was my first 1975--a $2,500 claimer--I owned alone-- $45K IN Partnership was the most expensive claim I ever made and $30K also in partnership was the most for one at a yearling sale $1100 the cheapest also in partnership. Never had a stakes winner--one allowance winner if call $17K purse an allowance--had claimers run for more.

One last time "read VERY slowly" also from above

Skip--It is speculation--and as mentioned previously it is only that I have absolutely no proof.

AND although I can say I have met 100's of top and famous trainers Lukas is not among them.

"READ SLOWLY" I GUESS THE ABOVE WASN'T THE LAST TIME

REGARDING LUKAS

I was thinking out loud and that really isn't right but honestly I have had those thought for years. "You want me to say I shouldn't have" I can live with that.

THAT'S ME ADMITTING I WAS WRONG---YOU LACK THE SAME HUMILITY IT SEEMS

Whatever I lack in tact or political correctness you lack in ---------Comprehension------ If I am pompous, you are off the charts know it all--quarter horse person.

I thought we were talking thoroughbreds

The harness comment was just my lamenting I didn't get in when given a chance to own a special animal. I would be happy to own a stakes winner of $200K with the prospect of much more in any breed---EVEN A QUARTER HORSE.--Sorry you can't understand that.

Noteworthy you still didn't answer even half my questions or even narrow down if it is YOU PERSONALLY or family, or if you are a secretary, nurse or in in the business. Again, I am assuming here, even though it is SKIP--I am guessing a female.

re: Where are All the Stars?

Skip — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 17:56:57 GMT

Sniper I didn't say you were a newbie. I said if you don't know the facts it's empty speculation. You seem to think you know everything.

Right now we (as in my family)own 9 race horses. We have 6 mares on the two farms, 4 of which are in foal and we also have a couple of studs.

We've owned a couple of claimers but mostly allowance and stakes horses. This really isn't about who we know or don't know because I'm pretty sure I could trump you on that, mostly based on how long we've been in the business.

We aren't as active as we once were because other things have gained interest in our family. Such as College Rodeo, Pro Rodeo etc. A retired QH race horse makes a great barrel racing horse a lot of the time. If one has the patience. I have my own business which takes up a lot of my time now and other family members are busy as well in their professional careers.

I personally do know Wayne and have for many decades. Also over the years I've known many of the greats of the game, past and present living and deceased.

But there again I didn't make any disrespectful or outlandish claims of wrongdoing without knowing the facts.

I know several millionaires, a couple who actually own race tracks. So what, that doesn't make me one.

Sounds like you are more into harness racing/standardbreds. Good for you. It's not for me, I prefer the excitement of Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred racing.

You might want to work on your writing because half of what you write is difficult to figure out just what you're saying.

If you're speaking of just seeing someone in the game and knowing them by osmosis I don't count that.

I only count people I know as someone I've had a conversation, dinner, friendship, relationship or so forth with as actually KNOWING them.

Spectulation? What the heck is that? Lord I thought good communication and writing skills were essential in succeeding in the world of big business and multi-million dollar wheeler dealers.

MikeRelva, he admits himself he doesn't know the people he is making accusations against. I don't think my discussion was directed at you?

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 06:37:25 GMT

Skip,

One last thing ----"we"---- if you want to go to "we" which counts my family or partnerships I had---bred 1 horse-raced horses. What is we??????????? Mommy, Daddy, Husband, Wife, Mistress (Count that one and my numbers go way up given my dad's wonderings with rich women around the track One had 3 stakes winners)-? My best man at my wedding and also best friend is a millionare--does that make me an expert on rich people?

The person I work for now I met at the track--became friends and owned horses with him in the 80's 1999 I went to work for him and left the track----he with luck will have a trotter he owns run in the Hambo this summer--he won 4 stakes last year--I told him to sell for $150K after he won his first race--told him he was on drugs when he turned down $250K after he won a sires stake---he made $200K last year--I am not always right-- I could have bought in for $8K.

Whats your story--horses -breeding works--- OR, WA, GA, CO breds or KY, FL, MD, CA breds there is a big swing in doing it for a living or hobby ? How much and where does your stud stand? Where do you race?Do you work in the racing industry or elsewhere?

Forgive my questions if you have contacts in the "biz" and been around since 1965 we may have met or have common aquaintences easily with the given I have been on tracks in the backstretch and stands in ON, NY, MD, KY, IA, LA, PA, VA, FL and do know many in the game although I only go to a few in the last few years if you count seeing horsemen--must is to watch racing--you just say you are just "an expert" from your post or is it "spectualation" of your position in the racing world?

re: Where are All the Stars?

Mike Relva — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 01:27:16 GMT

SKIP

Question? What eveidence do you have that Sniper "isn't in the game"? For all you know he could be. Pkease.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:15:43 GMT

Skip--It is speculation--and as mentioned previously it is only that I have absolutely no proof.

AND although I can say I have met 100's of top and famous trainers Lukas is not among them. I was thinking out loud and that really isn't right but honestly I have had those thought for years. You want me to say I shouldn't I can live with that.

I HAVE seen horses shaked and some nerved. I have even held the shank during. No--- I am not claiming it is proper. I have also seen a bevy of trainers going from winning everything in sight when they had an edge others didn't then go back to being those you throw out when looking at a race because they just don't win many.

Tell me I am a newbie and know nothing about the game??? Skip- who are you to say that?

Did Ron Turcotte ever come to your house? (although he didn't come to see me and not related to my next statement)? Ever golf with Sandy Hawley or have his agent live in your families house? Meet or work for a hall of fame like Mr EP Taylor? As a kid I walked the Dam of Danzig---which puts me in game a few years back since he was a top stud for a long time before he died and I was around way before he was born. I truly was there at the sale when Northern Dancer didn't sell---With my dad and his mistress to be exact. Check any of my posts when I say I knew someone or bet a horse and the amounts I stand behind them "as fact"--NOT when I say I may be wrong or not sure as in the Lukas musings --those are opinions. Maybe you are right and I shouldn't make them--but I did--- and your response was uneducated and just a stupid.

AND when going to HS I worked weekends on a thoroughbred breeding farm. Were talking late 60's and early 70's---PS my memory although not perfect I am sharp enough to do million dollar deals as a manager in a industry completely unrelated to Horse Racing for a company with 1000 employees---in just 12 years--I may not be the best in racing or this business--but I am good learner and don't miss much--in any field--I think he had an edge and used it in his heyday even if I shouldn't post it.

re: Where are All the Stars?

Skip — Thu, 09 Jun 2011 07:37:37 GMT

Sniper your posts are confusing at best.

I'm not lecturing just saying that you are speculating.

I assure you I know quite a bit about breeding, first hand. We have been breeding racing stock since around 1965. We always have had several broodmares and at least one stud.

We breed to outside studs and also purchase at the sales.

I just don't appreciate speculation by people who aren't fully acquainted with the person or their practices. It's empty speculation.

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Thu, 09 Jun 2011 00:16:47 GMT

Sniper1

I was there the day that Kennedy Road set that 6F mark. I think you mentioned Ramblin Road was trained by Robertson. He won his first LT race at Fort Erie at 7-5 then they sent him to Aqueduct and an allowance race. Tough Field because he faced Mr. Brick who would compete with Norther Dancer the following year in the TC hunt and another in the race was Raise A Native in his second LT start. RR would later be owned and trained by the Van Bergs. Back in the seventies I worked the mutual on the harness circuit at Greenwood, Garden City and Mohawk. I also worked a few times at Woodbine and Fort Erie on their bigger race days. I worked the day at Fort Erie when Sound Reason was running and they had their first ever million dollar mutual day. Just as an aside, our friend AAF can be a *&^% when he wants to be. I usually ignor him.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 22:58:23 GMT

Laz

Chillicoot went from a $2500 claimer "directly" and won a stake---at one time--no stepping up the ladder--Merrill

Was I right about your 3 horses mentioned and their trainers?

I think I am.

Later Mel was a large blackish mare--maybe not black but very dark and big. Mann and his brother were friends ---I think he trained him and drawing a blank on her owner but I think they owned Enternal Search as well---a very nice mare

I was a clocker so I saw everyone work and also a gap/horse identifier man so talked to just about every trainer/jock/exercise rider regularly and kept a book on how each horse looked and who would be training them. Carl Chapman and Jerry Levine would always try me and give me the wrong horses working. Chapman because he was joking Levine because he was sneaky

Blue Snow 5yr g never raced in my name as a clocker I couldn't own horses then and was claimed off me the first start after I claimed him and won $1460 purse $750 profit on the claim and $2600 back on a win bet. He was a revenge claim for his trainer stiffing me. He was the stable pet who also could run when they turned him loose I was sure they would take him back--something that really doesn't happen today --everyone is alive every race at major venues in my mind. I also worked on the mutuels in the afternoon and again we were not supposed to bet--the day Royal Chocolate won with Teddy C I went about $200 short in my float and was called in for it and pulled a few thousand out of my pocket and said why would I take it out of my box if I had thousands???? The matter was dropped and they saw the logic of my argument. They turned a blind eye to my betting because I used to put EP's bets in for him as well when I worked upstairs. The mutual manager also like to bet and gave me them to make.

Strange as it seems I would bet huge in those days and as long as I had my clockers or gap job I was quite successful because I am very adept on how a horse is moving in the mornings---a big edge--- especially with unstarted 2 yr olds or classy old ones returning. I had over $100K once in the bank across from Greenwood (Old Woodbine) not bad for some punk 20 something kid making only $380wk from 2 jobs

I make more now than any 4 jobs put together at the track and have made use of my American Citizenship since 24 and my wife makes very close to six figures, but I very rarely bet more than $400 although on rare occasions I will go to a thousand (I haven't this year). I know the bills are paid and really have nothing to gain by betting anymore. Its a hobby and got rid of my last racehorse 2 yrs ago. If I can't do it myself it is very expensive and they don't race thoroughbreds here in my state--only simulcast. I saw my last horse I owned run once live from the time I claimed him in Chicago to a year later when he was claimed off me at Woodbine.

Then- if I had 2K and liked a horse I fired it without a second thought.

Interesting bit of trivia ---I always say the biggest overlay I ever got was on Kennedy Road when he set the 6F mark @ Woodbine in an allowance race with Gomez actually waving back to the field down the stretch---he paid $4.20 and I bet $3K ($1500 which I had in my pocket and $1500 I promised the seller at the $50 wicket I would get in a minute out of my cashiers box if he lost and borrow it from somebody to replace it) near the start of the race when unbelievably he was 6-5 split choice with a Calvaris entry one they were betting was just claimed for 20K---Kennedy Rd was coming out of a world record 7f in 1:19 which he lost by a nose to Triple Bend. $4.20 really??? If ever there was a true 1-100 I had no intentions of betting that race until 2 minutes to post.

Ancient history--I had a $20 Double on Shackleford and small ex in the Preakness and was going to bet a few hundred on NP the other day until he opened @ 3-5 then I bet exotics instead. I was fortunate Atta ran second. I made close to 2K on the day on that and a few other bets so Belmont Day is a freebie--not that I want to lose it back-2K is still real money to me

I promised my wife after the Belmont I will retire until the BC---but trust me I will have my betting acct loaded for the horse I touting Check Your Soul in the Queen's Plate if I get 2-1/5-2 I will be betting a K. I suspect I will get my price.

I have industry meeting to go in a few hrs to as I am in Denver and will visit a few companies tomorrow while here. Friday I will do the very obvious when making my Belmont selections---my last hurrah's on these blogs for a while--since I am travelling there is a little time to kill since getting married.

Shackleford and Animal Kingdom keyed over Brilliant Speed, Nethro S and AK---all of $12 and probably because of prices all its worth---hopefully I can find something on the undercard to make a real bet.

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 20:56:01 GMT

sniper1

I can't say I remember Blue Snow right off. If she/he raced past the late seventies I wouldn't know (I kept up with the top stakes horses but not the entire horse colony). If your horse race when I was around I probably might remember because i knew virtually every horse that raced back then. Back when I followed the JC Circuit horses they raced a lot and we followed the claimers just like we folloed the top stakes horses.

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 20:32:19 GMT

sniper1

Great memories eh? The eh is a Canadian pun, but of course you know that. You forgot about Brockton Boy. He turned out to be a better sprinter than router, but he was named after Rocky Marciano who was from Brockton Mass. I mentioned Later Mel because she was a filly and I believe raced in the Dancer’s Plate. I also remember Royal Chocolate. I bet him in the Plate and if I remember correctly it was a muddy track and his jockey was Colangello (I know the spelling it wrong). I also remember some pretty good hard hitters back in the sixties like Titled Hero a Can. HOY I believe and Stevie B good his arch rival though I believe he was an American bred, Chillicoot which won the Highlander in Canada but I believe one year had the distinction of winning the most races in N/A that particular year, something like 16 races. I’m probably boring you, but I could go on for years.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 20:31:47 GMT

Very possible-- I go from memory only I do know Doug Davis later and I believe Gord Huntley had RR when he beat him -best 2 yr old trainer ever until W Ward came along. E Day was basically a one horse stable and he was claimed or ran for for $2500 before he got good.

Remember a horse called Blue Snow?---first one I ever owned

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:39:44 GMT

sniper1

I think you got your distances mixed up with the Dancer. He never raced in a 2F race. He did race in a 5.5F race which he won and lost the Vandal at 6.5F to Ramblin Road (I still have some of Road’s PP’s). Ramblin Road was a crack sprinter along with E Day and later raced in the mid west circuit. The Garcon that defeated ND in the Cup and Saucer on turf was Grand Garcon who wore him down when the Dancer tried to stay on the lead pretty well for the entire race.

The Dancer’s full brother, Northern Native was basically a dud, but his half brother Native Victor, one of only two geldings from Natalma, won a few races. I believe that Arctic Dancer was owned by JL Levesque who also owned Franfreluche. Arctic Dancer also was the dam of La Prevoyante.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:32:56 GMT

Laz--I met Jack Stafford in the Turf Club and disliked Gil Roundtree his trainer when I worked in various Jockey Club and backstretch postions-- Jack's son married a groom who I saw in the raw as did a lot of people no idea if that marriage lasted just hope she didn't wear white at her wedding. What ever happened to their ketchup and mustard empire? You could see their plant from the QEW.

I cashed one of my biggest tickets of my youth on Stafford's Chocolate Candy in the Queens Plate but I was betting on the other half of the entry Good Port and won by default.

Pierlou was a Lévesque horse I believe was trained by my friend Jacque Dumas (his 2nd trainer who got the lesser horses but he trained La Prevoyante when she went to FL -Starr didn't go although she ran in his name--) rather the Yonnie (Johnny) Star who I knew quite well and joked with often but I wouldn't call a friend like Dumas because I also knew his wife and family.

Later Mel I remember I believe as a horse that came from the clouds and had a lot of 2nds and 3rds in good company but didn't win often. I believe maybe a Mann trainee? Wouldn't bet my life on that. I also think the horse was quite large.

Arctic Hills---I may again be wrong here- was a Mort Hardy trainee that liked to lead in turf races and would win wire to wire. Cairns used to ride him---one of his few winners--but he was a nice kid. As a kid Mort or Richard Grubb would pick me up when the races were in Fort Erie and take me to the track to walk hots. My dad worked for the Ontario Jockey Club in the afternoon and wasn't about to wake up early and it was 2 miles to the track

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 19:01:05 GMT

Skip-Newbie I am to this breeding and racing thing

is a May/2008 post I could still find--here on Bloodhorse

I saw ND ran 3 times in Canada and twice he was beaten. Once in a 2 furlong race. The horse that beat him at 2 furlongs was a nice horse and very fast the other only ordinary. Rambling Road (good sprinter) and Garcon d' Or I think was the second horses name to beat him in Canada who was nothing special-Dancer was a great stud who especially sired great turfers as well as dirt. He himself was better racing on dirt.

I agree there are too many from his line and anybody with a Storm Cat colt in the last ten/fifteen years thinks they own a stud. If they weeded out the bad ones and average runners it wouldn't be so bad.

Windfields got rid of ND's full brother Northern Native and sent him to Mich. and oblivion. Nostrum was OK but nothing special in Maryland as a 1/2 brother stud to ND. His full sister Arctic Dancer produced a champion NA 2yr old filly I actually worked with La P. Arctic Dancer ran well but skipped maiden and went directly into stakes. I am not sure I remember her winning.

Except in a few cases (Some horses like Silver Deputy-I thought he was going to be one of the best ever when I saw him run and Danzig were meant to be superstars and didn't race more than a few starts due to breakdowns) No matter how well bred the horse is-if they doesn't race well the foals don't normally as well. By sending so many non-preforming well bred horses to stud the lines have been diminished and expanded them too much. YES, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. Viceregal from ND's first crop I still say is the best horse I ever saw run regularly in person (Dr. Fager would be my pick otherwise) yet he was basically a dud at stud and was sent to France -then disappeared, but his full brother Vice Regent was probably one of the most underrated studs of all time and he only broke his Maiden and failed to hit the board in his other races.

It was a good thing they gave him a chance.

Bottom line if they don't produce get them to somewhere they can't do damage to the line.--Turkey or somewhere.

15 May 2008 2:46 PM-

I also in the past on "Breeding" was very high on 3 studs going to the breeding shed

Tiznow, Candy Ride, and Yankee Gentleman --two of three isn't bad.

Search hard enough computer breeding expert and I am sure you will find those posts---I also pushed for a breeder friend to buy shares in Silver Deputy but that is only my word with no proof. The person is dead now.

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:33:21 GMT

sniper1

Impressed that you know Brockton Boy. Do you know why they named him Brockton Boy? Do you remember what he was best at? Do you remember Pierlou and Later Mel and Arctic Hills? Also, E.P. used to put his horses up for a pre-price with a reserve bid and when half were sold it was his practice to keep the other half for racing and if they didn’t race, for breeding. It was standard practice for many years, but it was still an auction. Nijinsky was put up for auction also and sold for $84K to Charles Englehard. E.P. himself was quite the story, how he legitimized Canadian racing by forming the Jockey club, building Woodbine and taking Canadian racing out of the leaky roof circuit and building it into one of the most respected racing organizations in the world.

Do you remember Stafford Farms. When I used to live in Toronto in the sixties and seventies I went to the track just about every day, even if it was for the last two races. Stafford used to race a horse called Port Master who was out of the mare Bel Sheba. It took many years before I realized the Bel Sheba happened to be the dam of Alysheba. Lots of great Canadian racing history. One of my favorites will always be Windfield’s Regal Embrace. This guy was crippled but he still won the plate and I always thought that if he was totally sound, he would have made a big splash on the US TC scene. He had lots of class. The same for Cool Reception, a good Canadian horse that had the lead in the stretch and finished second to Damascus in the Belmont and finished the race on a broken leg. He had successful surgery, but thrashed about when coming too and they had to put him down. Like I say, lots of good Canadian memories, though I’m hard pressed to tell you much about the sport in Canada now.

re: Where are All the Stars?

sniper1 — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:28:35 GMT

Skip,

While sitting calmly in a airport---I read your piece. First thing in handicapping is LEARNING TO READ A FORM--or learning in some cases to read period.

AGAIN AS NOTED--from above

No I am "NOT" saying that was what happened ---but there are other edges that certain trainers have had before the general population has the same---it just could have been his great help of that era which are the who's who the games talent now on their own and his son who got hurt. Either way giving credit where it is due he changed the game and deserved to be in the HOF my suspicions aside.

ADDED---As in my handicapping I am not always right--maybe it was completely legit--I just have my suspicions doesn't everyone at some time? --- he has good start to this year--but he still has and always has had big money behind him. I also know a shake trainer that never won races in any numbers more of a 2% man then was 2nd leading trainer at a major track one meet, then they tested for it and he disappeared again. Things are not always what they seem. Sage you put on your food in a another form has recently been made illegal---but for years it wasn't. It was much quicker acting and more powerful than grass or alcohol---but legal and not monitored.

Please do not lecture about breeding because I suspect you are not a match unless sitting at your computer (I rarely check and go on memory and as in the case of Dynaformer my memory lapsed and I am sure it will again in the future)--quite willing to admit there are more knowledgeable than me--but I am very well versed. I come from a horse racing family and have met, worked with, and for some very well known people in the game. There very many positions in racing I tried I started at 6 yrs old going to the track and was going to yearling sales as well. Did you know Windfields didn't auction at one time -just put a price on their horses and it was first come-first serve and Northern Dancer was up for $25K with no takers they raced the ones that didn't sell--one trainer had him as a buy as well as another who turned out a stakes winner called Brockton Boy and went the wrong way--he was a drinking buddy of my dad so I heard the story 1500 times--I was at that sale---I am pushing 60---last 10/12 years I took a different path doesn't mean I don't follow my first love closely. I also know a man "I personally don't like" nevertheless who wouldn't cheat or drug a horse illegally if his life depended on it. He had his horse disqualified from a VERY major race

PS I was Edward Plunkett Taylor's personal messenger in the Turf Club at one time for a year- he bred a few good horses in the day if you know of whom I talk. I used to spot his horses during races and tell him how they were running on the overpass between the Turf Club and Grandstand he also made a $10 wager on all his horses that ran---not a $100 not $50 always $10. He was very nice to me. (not so his Heir who was a legacy a-h ) I asked questions then as I still do today as I am as curious as I have ever been. I don't know everything nor claim to--I am not that pompous---but I am to the extent I think I know more and have more experience than most.

re: Where are All the Stars?

Mike Relva — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 16:04:48 GMT

DRAYNAY

Do you already have "a surefire lock" to win next yrs Triple Crown? Right.

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 04:15:41 GMT

Draynay

We just received a fax from Rachel.......she wants you to shut up already. she also said the Pepper's Pride was sensational.

re: Where are All the Stars?

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 04:12:51 GMT

Just checked out Zenyatta's spits in the 2008 Lady Secret (She set the stakes record in 140.30)

24:4, 23:4, 23:1, 22:3, and :06 sec flat for the last 1/16th! That's spinter's speed in reverse.

Talk about a "grinding" locamotive.

Householder 06 Jun 2011 3:58 PM

Doesn't that kind of remind you of another great one called Secretariat when he ran his splits in his Derby? How many great horses or any horses for that matter run each quarter mile faster than the predeeding one?

re: Where are All the Stars?

JayJay — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 22:07:41 GMT

Draynay : And what was the test for males in the last hundred years ? Run against inferior horses ? Run against whoever shows up ?

Filly or Mares DO NOT NEED to run against boys to be proven worthy of a championship. YOU, you're not capable of understanding that.

I think Goldikova would be proud to be mentioned alongside the great Zenyatta. I know Citation and Cigar is looking up to her and most likely admiring her.

re: Where are All the Stars?

Skip — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:22:45 GMT

Draynay, you have many pictures of your winners? We have many, many of them as well. I find that they get more difficult to preserve as they get older. Some of our older stakes race winners pictures we have had restored.

I assume you're speaking about the only pictures of winners that really count?

re: Where are All the Stars?

Skip — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:19:32 GMT

Lukas trained Thunder Gulch from his 2 year old season. Same with Capote.

Grindstone? Sire of sires (at least one, Birdstone who has had some impressive get). If you aren't in the breeding and racing game the bloodlines are probably not your area of expertise.

Stud fees were way overblown for years. Storm Cat? How do you think his stud fee got so high?

Humm who was it who trained his Dam?

Lukas had too many good horses for too many years to attribute it to what you're trying to do. He had the cream of the crop for a long long time.250-350 horses at a given time.

Maybe it's best to take a look at his drug violation record as compared to some others?

Steroids just affect the physicality of a horse, they don't make a slow horse run fast just by the interraction of the drug.

I'm not sure what TESTS you're talking about but for a couple of decades he was THE trainer that everyone wanted and he had great horses that he got to run big in big races. That's what a trainer is supposed to do.

The greats of today that worked for him? They credit him with teaching them how to be good trainers.

To compare Dutrow to any trainer who hasn't had suspensions, embarrassed the industry isn't too fair. In my opinion, whatever it's worth, I'd say that there are maybe 4 or 5 trainers in the upper echelon who could be compared to Dutrow and Lukas isn't or wasn't one of them.