Eclipse Award Choices

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Slew — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 15:36:53 GMT

Ranagul: you said "Regading the "Pletcher Punch" he could knock you out with Discreet Dancer this year. Ignore Todd Pletcher in the Derby preps at your peril. His record speaks for itself."

Uhhhh...he won his first KD ever in 2010 with Super Saver. You're right...his record speaks for itself.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Coldfacts — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:40:59 GMT

Gemologist,

This colt is slow by Derby standards and appears to have a major issue on his front left. In short, I think he will not be around come Derby time because of soundness issues. In any event he is by a Mr. Prospector broodmare and the prospect of him getting the Derby distance in a competitive time is extremely romte.

I would focus on the The Gaints Causeway filly and the Smart Strike Colt.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Forbidden Apple — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:42:49 GMT

In my opinion the three horses I mentioned above were extremely hyped up. You might call them superstars, but not me. Your comments could not be further from the truth. I was completely against Eskendereya and Uncle Mo long before they were injured or sick. Especially when people like you are so easily flattered by Pletcher's every move. When people started compairing both horses to racing immortals like secretariat, I do find that offensive. Eskendereya won one grade I race and Uncle Mo won two grade I races, that's all. There are many reasons why I don't drink the Pletcher punch every year. This includes how his horses and workers are treated. For example, last fall he fired around 10 workers at Saratoga because they had visas. Trainers like Pletcher and Zito prefer to hire illegal immigrants(mainly from Guatemala) who will do whatever they say. Working morning and afternoon for $5 per hour. There have been many Pletcher trained horses that I have followed over the years. Left Bank, English Channel, Panty Raid, and Rags To Riches are a few of them. But those horses had tons of natural ability and could have been trained by Charlie Brown. With Gemologist I like his name, his sire Tiznow, his dams sire Mr. Prospector and the way he tracked the moderate pace in the KY Jockey Club.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Ranagulzion — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 01:39:08 GMT

Forbidden Apple,

I've observed that you dislike certain horses no matter how good they are, simply because they are trained by Todd Pletcher. You keep quiet when they win impressively but become quite verbose when things don't go right with them. Consequently I'm very curious to know what is it that makes Gemologist an exception for you.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Forbidden Apple — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:34:13 GMT

First off, I do not consider Uncle Mo, Eskendereya, or Quality Road superstars. I'm not picking on them, just pointing out that you declared two of them as triple crown winners. And I was pointing out that it's far to early to start talking about Union Rags as if he is destined to be a triple crown winner. There is no gloating from my end, I tend not to believe the hype that's all.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Ranagulzion — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:14:10 GMT

Forbidden Apple,

Eskendereya displayed arguably the most impressive pre-Derby form of any 3YO in the last decade yet you scoff. I notice that you pick on injured or sick superstars in order to gloat that you didn't support them in races that they were unfit to race in. Shame on you "Apple".

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Forbidden Apple — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 05:15:22 GMT

I witnessed Eskendereya in the paddock before the Wood Memorial and he looked fat and average to me. He beat Jackson Bend, just like Uncle Mo, big deal. Super Saver was a one hit wonder that loved the mud, no one was beating him in the KY Derby. Lookin At Lucky was far more impressive to me, it's sad that he retired so early as a sound horse. And Drosselmeyer loved the distance of the Belmont. Eskendereya was a preseason star, nothing more. With Uncle Mo I am not fabricating anything, you and Draynay were all in on a horse who's biggest accomplishment was beating up on Boys@Tosconova. Both horses never even entered the starting gate of a triple crown race, just like Quality Road. Let me know when Discreet Dancer wins a graded stakes race. As you know I'm not a Pletcher junky, but Gemologist looks interesting to me.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Ranagulzion — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:02:38 GMT

Forbidden Apple,

I agree that Out of Bounds is a colt worth watching. He's obviously a very big strapping colt that is improving with each race and could potentially be among the elite. I'll wait to see if he can outrun Creative Cause and Laison in the battle for supremacy in California.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Ranagulzion — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:54:39 GMT

Forbidden Apple,

I'm not shy to admit predicting Eskendereya as triple crown winner in 2010. In hindsight even a doubting thomas as yourself can now see that he could easily have romped all three legs against the likes of Super Saver, Looking at Lucky and Drosselmeyer, had he not been injured.

As for Uncle Mo, you are misrepresenting my position. I supported Mo for the Derby and Preakness but expressed doubt about his Belmont capabilities, based upon pedigree. As soon as it became clear to me that Todd Pletcher was training him with "kids gloves" I switshed to Dialed In, and the records are here to show. Please don't fabricate stuff. Lets have an honest conversation.

Regading the "Pletcher Punch" he could knock you out with Discreet Dancer this year. Ignore Todd Pletcher in the Derby preps at your peril. His record speaks for itself.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Forbidden Apple — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:29:13 GMT

Ranagulzion,

I did not know that a lumbering plodder like Out Of Bounds could sit 2 lengths off from splits of 22.66 45.89 and still finish the mile race in 1:34.56. All you have to do is watch the replay of his maiden win and his Sham win. The horse quickly caught his rivals and finished up in style. I thought his turn of foot was excellent when Gomez asked him to run.

In 2010 you predicted a triple crown winner in Eskendereya. In 2011 you predicted a triple crown winner in Uncle Mo. It's far to early to even consider this thought when it comes to Union Rags. But I will say that Union Rags is physically impressive and he is in good hands with Mr. Matz. I'm happy to see that you are not drinking the Pletcher punch this year.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

MonicaV — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:21:29 GMT

Chucky,

Now I understand why you hate Rachel Alexandra and knock her every chance you get. She won HOY for 2009 and you can't forgive her for that. That I understand.

Also, as far as Rachel not being able to run 10 furlongs, she did run 10 furlongs. She was beaten by 1 length and was well ahead of the rest. Had she not been pushed to the front all the way, she probably would have won.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Karen in Texas — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:18:07 GMT

Coldfacts---I'll try to link the replay from the BH site.

cs.bloodhorse.com/.../a-wild-win.aspx

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Slew — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:30:12 GMT

Coldfacts: Thank you. I think we should take note at this time that since Citation..(bloodline of Bull Lea and Hypeion) we have had only 3 TC winners. Affirmed is an RAN, but Secretariat and Seattle Slew both were from the Nasrullah and Princequillo (xfactor) lines. Since the 70's the pinnacle of sires have been Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, and Secretariat. There has been so much inbreeding since the 70's, that the horses running today usually have 2 or more of these sires in their bloodlines. You cannot differentiate the probabilities of winners from any one sire line. RA and Zen also have Princequillo in their bloodlines. HDG has MR.P, Northern Dancer, AND Buckpasser. Buckpasser was from the Man O'War line. I would sincerely like to see more outbreeding...more Buckpasser (which is why I think Einstein will, in time, prove to be a worthy sire). Lonrho looks exciting. Consider that leading sires in the world (Galileo and Sea The Stars) are both Northern Dancer and Mr. P. It's difficult to find any outbreeding...but maybe it will happen. We need more stamina in NA horses. We seem to have bred it out of them in favor of speed. Perhaps the 70's will remain the "golden age" forever. It would be a sad indictment of our breeding potential.

Congratulations San Fran though I was rooting for the Saints...it was a great game. Tebow...you're a running back, not a QB. Laser precision from Brady and all the Pats. With my 'Boys out, I'll have to pick an NFC worthy Champion.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Coldfacts — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:20:06 GMT

Karen in Texas,

Ribot was the grand dam sire of Risen Star. His son His Majesty was the dam sire. I have not seen the race but the final time of 1:24.51 is moderate at best for the Gulfstream Park strip. Unless he was in hand a 100 meters out, he is probably not amongst Mr. Pletcher’s top string. Pleasantly Perfect was sired by Pleasant Colony and his dam was sired by Triple Crown winner Affirmed. Spring Hill Farm has the Ran on top and the Ribot on the bottom. Pleasantly Perfect was a late developer and Spring Hill Farm may be better as a 4YO.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Karen in Texas — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 00:16:49 GMT

Coldfacts---Thanks for your reply. I realize that Pleasant Colony is the broodmare sire of Spring Hill Farm. I was wondering more if you or others had seen the race today; and how his physical appearance, running style/characteristics, professionalism, etc., impressed you.

You mentioned Ribot. He was on the dam side of Belmont winner, Risen Star, as well, I believe.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Coldfacts — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:35:43 GMT

Karen in Texas,

You might have seen my numerous posts citing the number of TC races won by horse sired by RAN line stallions. You asked for thoughts on the Smart Strike colt Spring Hill Farm. The 47 TC races won by horses sired by RAN line stallions were produced from 34 broodmares. Interestingly, none of these broodmares were sire by a Ribot line stallion. Spring Hill Farm’s dam sire Pleasant Colony was a grandson of the great Ribot. Pleasant Colony broodmares have not been associated with many top class horse. In fact, broodmares sired by Derby winners have a strained relationship with Triple Crown races. The last time a broodmare sired by a Derby winner produced a derby winner was 46 year ago. It could be argued that a broodmare sired by a Derby winner is well overdue to produce a derby winner.

NB: Ribot was dame sire of 1974 Derby winner Cannonade. It is not inconceivable that his classy grandson can do the same.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Karen in Texas — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:56:29 GMT

Off topic, but about a 3-year old colt this spring...did anyone see the George Bolton owned Spring Hill Farm run at Gulfstream this P.M.? He won his maiden start at 7f., is by Smart Strike (yes, a RAN), and looked really nice to me. Any thoughts??

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Pedigree Ann — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:25:22 GMT

When speaking of 3yos for the Derby, all of you seem to be forgetting Creative Cause. Looking at his pedigree, he has the best chance of the three on-the-board BC Juvie finishers to progress to be a superior Derby/Belmont horse. His sire hit his peak at 3 as a 10f specialist, while his millionaire dam didn't hit her peak until 5, and her sire was a 10f G1 SW. Not a fashionable damside, but an accomplished one.

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Slew — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:13:52 GMT

Aside from the Eclipse and the TC and pedigrees..I can't sit still any more as I watch horse racing devolve.

Let's assume you work for a company that does not allow alcohol on its premises. Well, maybe you want a pick me up. I think it's one thing to surreptitiously slip a bit of Bailey's in your coffee, or some Vodka in your OJ. But it's a whole different ball game when you take a few fifths out to the main lobby and sit and drink them while welcoming clients with a stagger.

The infractions by Rick Dutrow are as blatant and demeaning to the sport as they are to the NYRA. I'm sorry he was allowed to be re-instated, while his suspension was pending appeal. I don't know the man, I don't like or dislike him, I'm just disgusted to constantly read about his continual abuse of the system, and smearing of the sport in the national news.

Perhaps, Jason, you can shed more light on recent events than we have been fed by the media??????

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Coldfacts — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 06:18:58 GMT

Slew,

I agree with all your points. Excluding the influence of the 34 broodmares associated with the 47 Triple Crown victories associated with RAN line stallions is inexcusable. Why do broodmares bred to RAN line stallions produce the winners of so many TC race? If these broodmare are the dominant influence, why is this dominance significantly less with other sire lines resulting in their moderate record in the Triple Crown races? Mr. Prospector was most prolific son of Raise A Native at stud. He was via a Nashua broodmare. Could the fact that he was produced from a Nasrullah line mare contribute to his dominance? Your Guess is as good as mine. Exclusive Native, Alydar and Majestic Prince did not have the longevity of Mr. P and their sons and grandsons did not advance the RAN sire line to any significant degree.

Going forwards I will Cease and Desist from mentioning the Raise A Native sire line. I do believe the Mr. Prospector sire line is the more appropriate one to highlight. BTW what do the 2009 and 2010 HOY and likely 2011 HOY have in common. It certainly could have nothing to do with Mr. Prospector. Well sorry to say it does. Rachael Alexandra the 2009 HOY was produced from a Roar broodmare. Roar just happens to be a grandson of Mr. Prospector. Zenyatta 2010 HOY was sired by Street Cry who just happens to be a grandson Mr. Prospector. Havre De Grace the 2011 HOY designate was produced from a Carson City broodmare. Carson City is a son of Mr. P. Blame who denied Zenyatta a second BCC was produced from a Seeking the Gold broodmare. Seeking the Gold is a son of Mr. P.

The Mr. Prospector broodmare line is starting to dominate just like his sire line. Can one sires of sire be that influential? Based on the evidence where should the credit go?

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Racingfan — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:44:47 GMT

Pedigree Ann, in theory I agree with what you said about moving the Withers. However, I actually think I like it better as now it can be a Derby prep and generate some excitement. Gone are the days when the triple crown runners entered that race also during their quest for the crown. It had been relegated to an after thought in it's previous place so I like the idea of the change much better than discontinuing it altogether!

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Slew — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:01:10 GMT

Ranagul: My point was that Dixie Union never WON at 10f. That's what bothers me. Hansen's pedigree too, is not short of talent and TC influence. When it comes to the TC (I've already noted that I don't choose my favorite early since I had BCJ winner, Vindication tagged as the next TC winner). I need to see more from more colts (and fillies) before I pick my favorite. So far Hansen is my leading candidate...so far.

Coldfacts: I think my problem might be that while your attribute so many winners to RAN bloodlines...a portion of those winners also carried Seattle Slew and Secretariat bloodlines. It's a potent combination for any horse.

You continue to obfuscate that fact by deluging us with too many facts.

I could say Slew is also the only Belmont Stakes winner to sire a Belmont Stakes winner (A.P. Indy), who in turn sired a Belmont Stakes winner (Rags to Riches). That's a fact!

However, the true fact is: there would be no AP Indy without a Secretariat dam.

You need to give credit where it's due, but I think you mislead when you give all the credit to RAN alone. Mr Prospector is a potent sire...but...although his sire was RAN, his dam was by Nashua, a son of Nasrullah.

My point is...you tend to spin the facts to support your agenda, and you rarely consider the xfactor of the dam.

Enough said...it's been fun

...Ranagul..Coldfacts..

re: Eclipse Award Choices

KY VET — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:28:12 GMT

Coldcuts....somehow you think you are mr.stride....tell me your thoughts on shacklefords! Do you think he is sound? sweaty...bad sign #1...changes leads late...runs sideways....in the cup, he changed leads late.. then finally changed..then went back to wrong lead! One of the worst signs.......beware!

re: Eclipse Award Choices

KY VET — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:24:18 GMT

Who is the best horse ANY 3 yr old beat? WOW! 118 beyer means nothing huh? The horse got sick...big deal! You dont know a good horse!

re: Eclipse Award Choices

Forbidden Apple — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:08:40 GMT

ColdFacts,

I like the fact that Out Of Bounds is not a lasix junky yet. A ban on lasix is coming soon. What's important is that the Sham provided graded stakes earnings. And of course I would like to see Gomez get healthy too.

KYVET,

The best horse Uncle Mo ever beat as a 2 year old was Boys@Tosconova. And the best horse he beat as a 3 year old was Jackson Bend. Wow, that's amazing! Uncle Mo is on course to receive the Hype of the Year award. He is just what horse racing does not need, a horse with 8 career starts calling it quits. Seriously, he has 2 career grade I wins, the marketing of this horse is more impressive than his ability.