Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

gw_bushwacker — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:41:30 GMT

I was watching a minor state restricted 75k stakes over the weekend and was wondering if the smooth air I saw was the same super horse draynay has been touting. Imagine my "shock" when this must be "imposter" was beaten by a horse that was 7 lengths behind him with only 2 furlongs to go. The eventual winner had trouble in the lane as he had to veer outside another who came out in front of him and still managed to blow on by. Tell me it ain't so, smooth air beaten in a restricted 75k race? It had to have been an imposter, right?

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

gw_bushwacker — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:58:14 GMT

Draynay,

Smooth Air is nothing special. He's only beaten to date horses from last years pathetic 3 yr old american class. Someone had to win those races. His stakes wins come with a big asterisk in that regard. As for Curlin his loss in the Classic was to the best 3 yr old in the world last year by far and the 2nd best 3 yr old in the world last year finished in 2nd in the same race. Every horse who beat Curlin in his lifetime had one or more G1 race. I know of no other horse in history who can make that claim and if there is it's a very exclusive group. Unlike your Big Brown he NEVER got beat by a mere Maiden or NW2 Other Than Allowance eligible Horses.

Curlin would have run Big Brown into the ground if they had ever met on dirt. Big Brown's best beyer figs didn't even match up to Wanderin Boy's best figs much less Curlins.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Slew.em.All — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:50:26 GMT

some people will NEVER get it..ahem!draynay!

Those 2 "very good horses" last week weren't "Lone Speed" types cruising on the lead at Talladega,er..Gulfstream Park.

And what's with the Smooth Air stuff?..who did he beat on dirt/turf?...yeah,I thought so.

Jason,your welcome,..anytime bro!(lol)...do I get a free grab-bag?

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

draynay — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:17:47 GMT

gw_bushwacker same old tired argument Big Brown beat no one. Funny thing is Smooth Air won stakes races on dirt and grass something Curlin could not do and finished right behind Curlin in the Breeders Cup. When Curlin faced a decent 3 year old he got whipped. Lucky thing he never came across the best 3 year old last year he would have lost by 10. Say what you want you let me know when ANY HORSE in stakes race on dirt at Gulfstream going 11/8 pulls a win out of the 12 post. Two very good horse last week were stuck out wide and got beat by a marginal Maiden winner.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

gw_bushwacker — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:38:44 GMT

Winning from the 12 hole at 1 1/8 will happen again when the race sets up the way it did in last years Fla. Derby. There was nobody to beat there and by far the best horse landed in the 12 spot. Added to that was the fact he was a speed or up front running horse and there was no other speed in the race. Everybody knows GP plays heavily to speed as this years Hutcheson and Holy Bull showed once again. You are either on top or near the front if you are going to win. Last years feat in the Florida Derby isn't what you want it to be. The race set up for the winner and he had nobody to beat. Ideal circumstances to pull that one off. If it never happens again part of the reason is that maybe in the future no race will set up so perfectly for those relagated to the 12 hole. He didn't have much to do to win that race. Just get out front and cruise and beat nobody to the wire.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Slew.em.All — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 05:08:32 GMT

Now here's who I'm following at the moment:

West Coast; Shafted and I Want Revenge..both improving and would appreciate the longer distances.Stardom Bound,goes without saying.

Mid-West; Flat Out and Poltergeist..both had impressive last out races,will see how they do against tougher next outing.

Florida; not impressed by ANY of the horses so far,but watch for Beethoven to kick it up a notch after his wide trip last out.Should be a lot fitter for his 2nd race off the lay-off.

East Coast; Tranquil Manner has every right to be top-class.Look for him in the Whirlaway next out.

Louisiana; I'll wait til' after the Risen Star,though I'm hoping that Indygo Mountain shows something besides all that hype and Au Moon drew a terrible post.Friesen Fire looks like he finally figured it out,but we'll see.

Slews' Rule!!!

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

draynay — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:12:18 GMT

No horse has ever won a stakes race from the 12 post AT GULFSTREAM GOING A MILE AND 1/8. Nor are you going to see it anytime soon. I don't care what happend on turf going a mile or anything else. Tell me when a horse wins from the 12 post going a mile 1/8th on dirt at Gulfstream. For the record I am saying it can't be done again except by GOD himself.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

slyder — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:45:04 GMT

draynay,

I'll do that. Didn't know I needed your permission to express my opinions though.

Yup Curlin won HOY once again. He won because he consistently beat better horses than the other nominees even faced. It's no wonder that Big Brown finished a distant third in that voting, he faced or beat nothing special and of far less class than Curlin did all year. I'm tired of the debate, Curlin deserved HOY, the connections of Big Brown had their chances to face Curlin prior to the Br. Cup and chose to duck him. If he had beaten Curlin I would have been inclined to say he deserved the award. It didn't happen. Curlin faced better, beat better, and was barely beaten by better than Big Brown ever faced, much less beat. Curlin didn't get beat by a maiden and allowance eligible horses either last year. Every horse that ever beat Curlin had a G1 victory or more to their name. Not many in history can match that claim.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

LDP — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:45:15 GMT

Dray, according to you Curlin sucks, so why is Smooth Air finishing behind him a big deal. I mean you have bashed him all year, so wouldn't in your logic that make Smooth air an even bigger nobody? Another thing is Smooth Air finished right behind Curlin on Pro ride which playes like turf, which Smooth air like probably better than dirt, and Curlin doesn't, so it makes sence SA would finish closer to Curlin than he might have if the race had been on dirt. Back to my question, why all of a sudden is Curlin such a good horse, when last year he was just a one trick pony?

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Wanda — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:48:36 GMT

phoenixky1:Checked your horse out. His sire was pretty handy{turf and dirt} and his first crop seems to be able to run on anything. The mare is a nice out cross on the bottom side. Nice to see Graustark on the mares side. The best of luck to you and hope your "mom and pop" operation gets some glory this year! Hang in there cause it's people like you that keep the game going in tough times.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

gw_bushwacker — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:28:41 GMT

None of the performances in the Hutcheson or Holy Bull did much for me. I do however see that we had another instance of a horse that won from the 14 hole, yes the 14 hole in a stakes in case draynay wonders, and this in a route (mile turf on jan. 18, Jack Spratt the winner) where the turns sre much tighter and it's far more difficult to do than on the dirt at 1 1/8 from the 12 hole (not 14 hole like this was)with a longer run to the first turn, kinder turns, and a speed favoring track like his hero did against far inferior competition.

Stakes win from the 14 hole starting much closer to the first turn and with far tighter turns to negotiate. Guess it's not impossible once again.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

draynot — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:51:38 GMT

All the hype leading up to these two races and what a letdown. I saw nothing much here in either race to write home about. At least it's only the beginning of the Derby Trail. There is still hope this years Derby field comes up better than last years where they were so weak it allowed a horse to win from the 20 hole because of lack of competition. I hope we never see a Derby field that weak again.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

draynay — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:42:16 GMT

Slyder Smooth Air is a multiple stakes winner and a stakes winner on turf as well. His feet have been a problem but like I said he finished right behind CURLIN in the Breeders Cup so you can continue to bash him but a healthy Smooth Air this year will continue to win more stakes races. Curlin won horse of the year for beating AP Arrow and Wanderin Boy so ease up on Smooth Air.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Householder — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:53:16 GMT

Great Jason! On to the Robert B. Lewis...Pioneer of the Nile is working up a storm. Stardom Bound goes a little earlier that day (Feb.7).

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

slyder — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:03:26 GMT

The Hutcheson winner didn't impress much as he had a dream trip. The good thing is that compared to last years running at least the winner didn't crawl home the last furlong.

Yes draynay Smooth Air has never impressed me. 2nd in the Fla. Derby was a gimmee, he beat nothing to come in there. Someone had to win the Ohio Derby, it was a patheticly weak race, Cherokee Artist, Z Fortune, Medjool, Your Round, Instill, Celtic Metal, and Stolen Chevey? That's who he beat. NOBODY!! After his win in the Hutcheson he was whipped next out in the Sam Davis by Fierce Wind and Big Truck, two more nobody's. He got whipped by Anak Nakal and Acai (WHO?) in the PA. Derby as well. Not exactally world beaters there either, I see Anak Nakal hasn't gotten any better as his effort in the Donn showed. In each of his races aside from the Ohio Derby at 1 1/8 or longer he drifted in the stretch and was tiring. Hardly the sign of a good horse. His Derby effort if you can call it that was horrible. Maybe a year of maturity will help him but that remains to be seen. I see he didn't win the Sunshine Millions as you predicted he would, guess the competition came up too strong to enter.

Nobody in the Holy Bull excited me much. A rather pedestrian pace and the final time wasn't anything to write home about. I'm hoping someone steps up next out from this effort, but I don't see a Derby winner here either.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

draynay — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:58:04 GMT

West Side Bernie was the best horse in the race but the 10 post proved to be too much. The wide post caused him to head for the rail 8 to 10 lengths back into the first turn and despite a good looking move at the top of the stretch he simply didn't have enough to go 6 wide and hawk down the leaders. With each stakes race that goes by I am more and more impressed with the Big Brown victory from the IMPOSSIBLE 12 post at Gulfstream. Just ask West Side and Beethoven how impossible it really is.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

phoenixky1 — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:19:26 GMT

Once again the horses we thought would be shoe in winners in the Hutchinson and Holy Bull disappointed up. The Derby trail is always full of suprises. I am happy to report that Take the Points won is allowance race at Gulf Stream yesterday, with Edgar Prado up, by 2 lengths and he was coming off of a 4 month layoff. I am hoping that his connections will point him to the Fountain of Youth. I think he could be the sleeper. Yes, I bred him but until he proves me wrong I think the is the real deal. This is for all the mom and pop breeders like me who have only a couple mares and a dream in our heart.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Householderj — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 05:02:40 GMT

Could be a Candy Man Chocolate/ Candy exacta in Kentucky.

Signed...The Undefeated (on both dirt and turf, highest Beyer of the year-123) Candy Ride.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

bobbywine — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:34:37 GMT

To "TonyC": Too bad you're not a betting man, your "SARATOGA SINNER" won a 12-1. For the Feb 12-15 Future, I like "Old Fashioned," he worked in 58.4 for a Fairgrounds race on the 16th. "Big Drama," and "The Pamplemousse," along with "Vineyard Haven," are horses I'll use in this 1st pool wager.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Wanda — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 00:09:39 GMT

Good day at the OTB Jason I boxed 2,3,4{EX} in the Holy Bull. Hey more money for Vegas!

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

MIKE RELVA — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:03:07 GMT

To: 2TIME VALLEY PLAYER

Your crystal ball will go haywire today when Nicanor wins or takes second. You seem to already have him beaten before he's even in the gate,let me know how that works out for you,lol!

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Wanda — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:40:47 GMT

Well one thing about the Holy Bull it will separate the men from the boys, a 1 1/8 will do that.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

Draynay — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:49:37 GMT

West Side Bernie is a Graded Stakes winner in this race vs. Allowance and Maiden winners. His race against Big Drama and Midshipman were impressive and there is no Midshipman in this race. His works say he is the one to beat. Lets see if he can do it from the 10 post.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

DONNA — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:34:37 GMT

I also would like to know what happened to Breakwater in the Hutcheson. He did not run a lick, very disappointing. Never thought Bee Cee Cee ever had a chance where did that horse come from? He cost me a tri. I'm kind of leaning towards Idol Maker today for the Bull, still not quite decided yet.

re: Hutcheson and Holy Bull Selections

TonyC — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:12:17 GMT

Kinda liking Saratoga Sinner as an upset value today. Obvious ones to watch are Danger To Society and West Side Bernie. Stately Character is coming around and is bred out of this world for the distance. Not a betting man, but would use him under the top three.