Derby Thoughts - One Day After

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

GOCURLIN — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:12:30 GMT

Amazing Derby Day, huh? Rick Dutrow is such a loudmouth. RIP 8 belles.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Matthew W — Fri, 09 May 2008 17:11:47 GMT

Re: the (supposed ) soft fractions--there was a tremendous headwind in the stretch, indeed MOST of the race was run in the headwind--I don't believe any horse in training including Curlin beats Big Brown that day, yes the crop is weak but he's not, you're looking at a super-horse.....

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

freshfan — Thu, 08 May 2008 07:26:57 GMT

I have been watching this sport since my great grandmother placed a bet on Thunder Gulch in the Kentucky Derby and won. I absolutely love it. I have read stories of many of the past winners. I find it silly that people complain so much about the cruel treatment if the horses and the sorry conditions of todays racing. Racing has come a LONG way from what it was. In fact, I think it may be becoming too soft. Past horses such as Seabiscuit ran 35 times in his first year of racing! Go back and look at past triple crown winners and their careers. Don't get me wrong, I don't want horses overworked and I don't want to see another Eight Belles tragedy. I just think the more running a horse does, the stronger it will be. As to this years Derby, I loved seeing Big Browns domination. I hope he continues on to win the Triple Crown. I was kinda hoping to see Pyro do better though. I would love to see Colonel John run in the Belmont, he is bred for the distance from what I understand of his pedigree. I want to see Big Brown prove he is the best against the best. By the way, anyone heard how Pyro came out of the Derby, I have been reading up on Preakness and post Derby and haven't heard anything at all about Pyro.

side note to jmark: I had hoped the time would be a little quicker, but then I recalled the horses had been running into a strong headwind, according to track announcers. With that considered as well as whatever effect coming out of the 20 post may have created, Big Brown ran quite a nice time.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Gman59063 — Thu, 08 May 2008 02:23:19 GMT

Mississippi Rick if horseracing is so cold and cruel and barbaric, can you please explain why you are on a horseracing website and he writing on a horseracing blog!

I have never seen so many self pro-claimed horse experts in one place. I think its time to stop trying to blame anyone for a tragic event, if the jockey had any for warning that Eight Belles was injured I guarantee he would have done all he could have to stop Eight Belles, I don't think it would have mattered where or who she was running against, she was trained to gie her all when she was on the track, all true athletes give their all when they perform! Once again I am sorry for a tragic loss!

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Matthew W — Thu, 08 May 2008 01:19:42 GMT

Big Brown has run three races this year: first, a tremendous alw race after which Kent thought this may be the best he's ridden...second, his awesome Fla Derby, where he rebroke at the 3/8 pole, a Derby prep I've not seen surpassed in my 37 years of racing....third, The Derby itself revealing himself to me as the best horse since 'Bid, and surely "Bidlike" in his total dominance----I'm interested in what happened to Col John as I think he's a good horse in a weak crop...hopefully he can get that (awful) 1 1/2 dirt mile at Belmont cuz you're lookin' at the triple crown winner---he'll smoke'em at Pimlico, just like 'Bid.....I'm exited....good thing I live in So Cal for the Breeders Cup vs Curlin....Hello!!

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

jmark — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:12:11 GMT

"Easy fractions" complainers, go to www.kentuckyderby.com and click on "History" All the charts from prior races are there. Other than years in which a speed and fade burner is entered (Spanish Chestnut, 2005), the fractions typically are 46-47 for the half, 1:10 something to 1:11 something for six panels. Please get your facts straight. Given where he was placed on the 1st turn, BB probably ran about a 46 flat half, maybe even 45 and change.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Mississippi Rick — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:27:12 GMT

Although I appreciate the content of this blog and the insightfulness of Jason and the many contributors, how can you all call yourself true "horse-lovers" and keep supporting this sport that is so barbaric and cruel in its treatment of animals. This sport should be outlawed! Bet on yourselves folks, bet on yourselves...

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

lorraine biffath — Wed, 07 May 2008 15:37:13 GMT

I didnt watch the race, but when I heard what happened it brought tears to my eyes.I watched the replay, I know accidents do happen but you can clearly see there was a slight problem when she pulled to the rail.An experienced jockey would of noticed that.In my opinion that accident should of never happened. What a waste of a beautiful animal. My heart goes out to those who are connected to her. RIP EIGHT BELLES

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

insider p — Wed, 07 May 2008 14:20:42 GMT

Joe: Denis of Cork will never beat BIG BROWN,time to face up to it you picked the wrong colt to put your money on.Denis of Cork is nothing more then a nice colt.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

brenda — Wed, 07 May 2008 14:19:18 GMT

Eight Bells breaking down was a tragedy, but this filly had proved she deserved the chance to mix it up with the boys. If she had not been hurt I doubt any one would be saying she didn't belong. As for Big Brown's average finish time, I wonder how many more lengths he ran than if he'd had a ground saving trip on the rail like we saw last year. He's a good colt, and I'll enjoying watching him in the future.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Gman59063 — Wed, 07 May 2008 03:08:40 GMT

That was a well written letter, Rubyfree. Your letter and well thought out analysis about horse racing really was right on target. The only thing I would add is how many people have been kept out of joining the ranks of owning horses strictly because of the cost. Thanks again Ruby for a wonderful letter!

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

joe — Wed, 07 May 2008 02:29:37 GMT

Dooge--I agree about the fake tracks, and really forgot about the Breeders Cup being out west this year. So much for a match up of Big Brown an Curlin. I almost think Steve Sexton and Churchill Downs are to blame for this, since they are so greedy.

Anyway, I am tired of arguing about the soft fractions and all. Need to give Big Brown his credit. Ran awesome. Cant stand the jock though. I actually thought Dutrow was very likeable and fun to watch. I didnt take him to be cocky. I thought he was having fun, and it was entertaining.

Hope I get my showdown in the Belmont, with Denis of Cork, and I hope I can get back on here and say told you so. If not, I will be happy to see a triple crown winner.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Johnny Mas — Wed, 07 May 2008 00:21:06 GMT

In all sports, humans as well as animals can die. It has always been that way and it will always be that way! Some horses like Go For Wand, Ruffian and now Eight Belles have run to their death. Why does this occur? It could be for many reasons but these horses like some humans in their quest for greatness will go for bust because their determinded hearts don't know no other way. Rare things sometimes can be explained and learned from but sometimes they can't. But I do know one thing...a hero will never be forgotten and a legend never dies!

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

hank — Tue, 06 May 2008 22:21:20 GMT

Rubyfree i love your analysis of whats happening, inbreeding has made a very fragile product, with the emphasis's on speed, training methods have evolved to generate speed. Horses race 10 or so starts and to the breeding shed. I is great to see Curlin brought back to the races. It was really great to watch top handicap horses like Tom Fool, Bold Ruler, Nashua to name a few who toted a lot of weight over 130 lbs and still won. Racing needs older horse to keep interest.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Karen — Tue, 06 May 2008 22:19:35 GMT

Ruby free: your post was long over due and so very well said. I couldn't agree with you more. It's Tuesday and I am still trying to make sense of this tragedy and the more the media and PETA get involved, the harder it gets. I believe the trainer and owner of this amazing filly loved her to the end of the earth.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Mike Antonetti — Tue, 06 May 2008 19:48:56 GMT

Big Brown's performance in the Derby was frankly quite impressive and unlike any of the last 30 years, it would seem nothing can stand in the way of Big Brown and the so elusive Triple Crown. Even in the years of Silver Charm, Real Quiet, and the other good horses that won the first two legs of the TC, those crops were deep enough to count with horses capable of preventing these big horses to sweep the Triple. Not the case this year. Big Brown has shown to be so superior to his peers that nothing seems capable of preventing the inevitable. And it is about time. The younger generations of racegoers need a Triple Crown winner and Big Brown couldn't be a more deserving crown bearer. It is a shame that this crop of three year olds have come up so weak, because a horse like Big Brown could have gotten the job done with a little stiffer competition.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

dooge — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:58:52 GMT

Pffffft to all you who say the fractions in this years derby were slow by derby standards. Those fractions were plenty solid. Add in the wind factor and they were even better. C'mon give the horse its due. Big Brown is simply a much better animal than the rest of his class. As for Denis of Cork in the Belmont, not so fast. So many handicappers are lulled into thinking the longer race means a closer has to win. It's all about pace and the Belmont has proven over the years to not be kind to one run closers. Denis ran a good race in the derby but still hasn't run near fast enough to catch the Big Brown Machine. I say we need to get a movement together to get the Breeders Cup off the fake track in Cali and get it on dirt where it belongs so we can see the match of a lifetime in Curlin vs. Big Brown. If they don't meet on dirt this year I'm afraid they never will. I for one could care less about racing over the fake crap. As a longtime handicapper who plays the bets frequently I will not bet a single dime at a track that goes over chopped up gumbies.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

joe — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:13:10 GMT

Class of 66-

Quality speed horses, on artificial surfaces maybe, but not dirt!!! To hell with the polytrack. Where were all the calinfornia and other horses who prepped on artificial surfaces? No where. Monba was last.

I think its safe to say, by quality of speed, there was no Smarty Jones or Lion Heart. War Pass ran the best race of all, in his last start. A mile and eight, and went .21 and .45, and still refused to quit!!! Thats way faster then .22 and .47 that Big Brown went. And War Pass had to duel and put horses away while running on the front. That is one reason I was able to cash on the Super, since I knew Tale of Ekati would improve off of that effort. He was so determined to get by.

I will say it over and over again. Big Brown ran an awesome race. He won the KY Derby, and is undefeated. That is pretty special. I still dont think he is a great horse, or has really been tested. That isnt his fault. Cant take nothing away from him. But the folks who are making him into the next super star, must be blind. A very slow Derby, with a suspect field. Kind of reminds me of the LOST IN THE FOG ordeal. Everyone said he is the best sprinter we will ever see. But he hadnt faced anything. Breeders Cup day, he got hooked on the front, and had to duel, and faded.

I still think if Big Brown gets hooked, and has to duel, he will not be able to sustain, not like Smarty Jones, and some of the other speed oriented horses from years past. Denis of Cork ran awesome to close on such soft fractions.

What I dont want to see is some of these trainers, who have no chance, throw a rabbit in there to cook him intentionly.

I want to see some quality horses, who have a chance, take him on, and let the best horse win. But I know that wont happen. Have a feeling some "cheap speed" will be entered just to cook him. I dont want that, as I dont think he is as good as he is made out to be, and once hooked by a quality horse, he is done.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Marvin J. Gentile — Tue, 06 May 2008 15:59:37 GMT

In my ten years experience training and racing horses, I don't believe there is one specific problem with the present day racing of horses.

No doubt a list of possible considerations can be easily constructed.

Other than a horse being under trained, or racing on chemicals, both of which did not contribute or exist in Eight Bells tragic demise, hers was the ultimate breakdown of the equine athlete.

Today's racing horses, no matter the breed, receive the best in veterinary care, the utilization of knowledgeable blacksmiths and enjoy the best in nutritional availabilities.

Eight Bells demise was the tragic result of a young fearless filly chasing the American dream of capturing the Kentucky Derby which demanded the total exertion of all of her abilities as a Thoroughbred, doing what she loved to do, run.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

insider p — Tue, 06 May 2008 15:25:50 GMT

draynay thank you for solidifying my comment,it would appear that you are a student of the game.I still can't believe that people go by the time of a race since conditions of the day play such a big part of the outcome.If I'm at the track the first thing I do is look at the flag to see which way the wind is blowing it will determine if the speed horses or the closers will have the advantage.Class plays a big factor a form horse might show a real fast time and the horse with class will still beat him,Why??

Good racing to all

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

draynay — Tue, 06 May 2008 14:09:14 GMT

Big Brown has accomplished the same thing on the track that Barbaro had.

Big Brown is now two races away from becoming one of the greats of all time. His performance in the Derby in windy conditions going 4 wide all the way around the track was simply unreal.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

insider p — Tue, 06 May 2008 13:57:13 GMT

joe in reference to your comment. I was at the derby, the wind plays a big factor as to the time of the race. Im anxious to find out what the beyer figure was. for all out there BB had a better beyer then Barbaro in FLA Derby does that make him better? certainly not however the mark of a champion is to overcome all adversity and still win and BB has done that, lets give him his kudos until he loses.R Dutrow has done a great job he told us all like it was and caught hell for it but, the IEAH group of people are class A if you ever happen to be at the track stop by to say hello they greet and talk to everyone.If Denis of cork runs againts BB in the belmont I'm still sure he won't beat BB not in the same league.Always remember there might be a fresh contender waiting in wings.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

RunFast159 — Tue, 06 May 2008 06:24:11 GMT

How refreshing it is to be here in this forum, when I have just spent much time over at MSN responding to an article about the "Dark Side of Horse Racing." Ugh.

Big Brown did exactly as I expected him to. I was a non-believer when the gates opened at the Florida Derby, but less than 2 minutes later like so many others, I thought this horse was a potential monster. I read Dutrow's comments about running Brown back so soon in the Preakness. He seems less confident now. I hope the horses feet hold up...

Eight Belles, wow my condolences go out to her connections. She ran an incredible race. Who could have expected or prevented that? I am sorry her connections are facing such scrutiny and criticism, as is the industry as a whole. She definately proved she belonged in the Derby, besting all but one of the top colts in the country.

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

Rubyfree — Tue, 06 May 2008 03:38:41 GMT

I am a casual handicapper, and therefore considered a casual racing fan. But I am a passionate professional horse woman who has devoted my adult life to the retraining of OTT tbs; have worked at racetracks large and small, clean and dirty, and care deeply- very, very deeply- about the fate of this sport, which I truly believe to be the most majestic enterprise in animal husbandry. Why is it that these breakdowns- George Washington, Pine Island (so easily left out of the media's eye), Barbaro, Eight Belles- are happening to this degree at what should be the pinnacle of the sport? As far as I'm concerned, the answer lies almost exclusively in irresponsible, short sighted breeding tactics. To say that this filly never should have run, or that her jock, trainer or owner was responsible for driving her past her limits, is narrow sighted & immature- and certainly will do nothing to salvage the sport and a moment of real grace for a powerful, deserving race horse. We need to look back to the 'breeding boom' of the 80's to find the heart and soul of the matter. Before we jump on track surfaces, connections, or even racing age- a point I might be willing to consider- we should recall that in the heyday of this sport, horses ran farther, more often, with shorter (sometimes MUCH shorter- 2 days?) breaks, under kids who may have only ridden a farm horse at a gallop (and who also, for the record, tended to beat the ever loving crap out of them), and these horses did NOT suffer breakdowns of the nature that we are seeing- certainly not with this frequency. When we started to put the emphasis on how fast we could get a decent running colt from the training barn to the breeders shed, we lost sight of what made racing popular & profitable in the public circle for generations- the triumph, the glory, the majesty and the beauty. Horse racing began to decline in popularity not because of a lack of relevance, but because of a lack of names that the casual fan could follow, love and get behind. That happened because we started retiring good horses at 3. That happened because stud fees and auction prices went through the proverbial roof- and now we can't breed a sound horse to save our lives, because we don't KNOW who's sound. These sort of breakdowns also don't happen at the lower levels of racing- and again, those horses are coming from long lines of solid, sturdy runners whose owners knew they were more likely to make money on the track or at resale then in the shed. Those levels of horses also tend to go on to successful careers as pleasure or show horses- and stay relatively sound until old age takes them. I have an 18 year old off-the-track gelding in my barn who ran 37 starts in 6 years. He's sound as can be, and still puts up a fight for kids learning to jump. We're doing something terribly, terribly wrong at the upper end with bloodlines, and until that awful misdirection is rectified, we will continue to suffer losses in attendance, handles, and the very animals we base our livelihoods on. No surface will change that. I hope Larry Jones, a consummate horseman, gets some sleep tonight. I hope that ferociously fighting filly rests forever with her head towards the finish line; and I hope so much that we learn from her loss. She deserves that much, doesn't she?

re: Derby Thoughts - One Day After

terry hill — Tue, 06 May 2008 03:09:32 GMT

I concur with Mike B.

I do have have a 28 year old ex-track horse and I have to belive that the owners/trainer/jockey cared for Eight Belles dearly.

What happend to her was a tragedy ---and in my heart I think she did not suffer for any lenght of time --- I would like to see the age be raised to true 3/4 years olds - - - how would that change the racing industry??

She is now with Barbaro among the other MANY GREATS!