Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Mike Relva — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:34:08 GMT

TO: ROBERT H

Guess you were wrong today regarding FF. If you read the blogs you will see I picked him for the homerun. Guess you aren't right all the time!

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:40:26 GMT

Mike,

Good, i was wondering if it sent it or not, lol. Sorry it was soooo long, probably scared you away. I look forward to reading your email.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Mike Relva — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 16:05:28 GMT

TO: LDP

Last nite I discovered your letter,thanks. Will write you over the weekend.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:15:32 GMT

Mike,

Of course it's fine. I know i took ten years making up my mind on whether to email, but i'm fine with it. Feel free to write away.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Mike Relva — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:14:59 GMT

LPD:

If it's ok,I will write you

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:56:02 GMT

Maybe it didn't send, but i was talking about mainly my two horses in there, it was kinda long, lol. I have AOL, so maybe it will take a while to get to you. My address was radianceparadise@aol.com

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Mike Relva — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 01:57:55 GMT

TO: LDP

Which email,dear?

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 01:15:59 GMT

Mike,

Thanks, so much for defending me. I have to say it feels like every time i talk on a blog i get into a fight, lol. So did you get my e-mail?

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Mike Relva — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:16:11 GMT

TO ROBERT H:

You don't have the "franchase tag" for this blog! If LDP and others' have a different opinion than you then that's their business. Many on this blog are"in love with their own voice" that in reality know,at best little regarding racing. Many are here only to serve as a distraction to what this blog should really be about. No one here "wrote the book",it's about that simple!

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:55:03 GMT

Robert,

What smack did i talk? I said i blame him, smack would be like Elliot sucks, that rider stinks, he shouldn't be a jockey, and where in any of my post did you see anything to that??? Alan state his oppinion w/o going into a fit. I don't expect you to not to respond its your right, but you can at least be like alan and be respectful. I only said again, that i blame Elliot, one of the big reasons is because he moved way to soon and i still feel he could've urged Smarty more. That is all i said. All i do on these blogs is come on and state my oppinion. If you don't agree fine with me, you can tell me, Mike Relva and me disagree on many things, but we don't get in each others faces. When you get in my face for no apperent reason other than you don't like what i have to say, you can expect me to get rude right back.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Robert H — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:22:58 GMT

Robert: Street Sense was far from being just a Churchill horse. While he ran his best races at that track, he did follow is Derby with a bang-up run in the Preakness, losing to the wonderful Curlin by just a nose, and then swept the Jim Dandy and Travers. In the Kentucky Cup Classic, he ran 2nd to a quality horse, Hard Spun, who had a huge pace advantage; Hard Spun had already proven an affinity for Turfway, having won the Lane's End. The only poor race Street Sense ever ran was in the Breeders Cup Classic.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I never said he was a bad horse- I said he loved CD-CD loved him- and after that.....he slips and slips and his only victory was a against the flop Grasshoper.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Robert H — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:18:27 GMT

LPD,

You can have whatever opinion you like, but when you slam a rider talking smack on a BLOG- WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN LPD?

This is a BLOG- people TALK- they supposedly exchange opinions or pass on info. When you slammed him for losing the Belmont- I responded in detail with specifics-THAT is why this a a BLOG.

Most of the writers back then thought Purge would defeat SJ- so Purge was sent off as the favorite- in a perfect ride- and brilliant tactics, Elliot crushed Purge and if you are two blind to see all he did for that horse- YOU ARE RIGHT- you can have whatever opinion you like.

But in a Blog- don't expect to talk smack and then nobody responds.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Robert H — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:06:14 GMT

MP- I don't have a 'system'. I always track the stakes horses and two or three times a month I will bet heavy on whatever I decided in what spot I go with. Anything can happen in a horse race- but this isn't politics- being direct is what it is.

I went into the age of FF because he hasn't had a break- was still very young and the last horse to attempt the Louisiana Triple was a heavy favorite and fininshed off the board. In regards to the race you talked about- I didn't bet it and never blogged about it.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Robert H — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:51:50 GMT

SLEWPIE> Bobbie: Funny how some people get all riled-up when someone disagrees with them.Reminds me of Jr.High..Awe,memories.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert says: Elliot did such good work on that horse-to blame him for losing the Belmont is just pathetic. In regards to Ms. Whitney- she was upset by the jeers- she even crumbled the flowers she had as she walked away in shock- it was even on the front page of USA Today.

SLEWPIE> Anyways...How do you know FF can't win 3 races in a row.Did you speak to Larry Jones too.Or was it his Jockey,Groom,Hot-walker or some inside info? That statement is ridiculous.>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Robert says: Do you practice being a hemorrhoid Slewpie, or is it a natural gift you nurture? If you are this hard up to be an IDIOT- you have some serious issues my friend. Maybe the Dr. Phil boards can help you? Perhaps you mistake me for a relative? The last horse to attempt the Louisiana Triple was Fly Cry in 1994- he was the heavy favorite and finished off the board. The year before that- Dixieland Heat won all three and for the next two years basically ran on memories of those races. FF has been going without a break in an extended campaign-he was rank in his last and I think he will be a huge flop Saturday..............

SLEWPIE > Do you really think FP ran "great" in the Risen Star? He finished behind FF.He ran OK..FF won and his performance wasn't great either. Flying Pegasus was coming off a long break,going 2-turns,running more than 7f for the first time and had to run hard all the way..ingredients for a major bounce reaction. And last year's Futurity is last year's news.Friesan Fire is a whole new animal..You should know better Bobbie.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Robert says: Yes- As I told JS- I love FP! He has always given 100% in every race and is always there in the end. He was racing a well seasoned bunch in the Risen Star and when you look at his start- then being carried 5 wide- 4 wide- finally getting 3 wide and losing a ton on lengths- it was an incredible feat to finish as he did. THAT is my opinion and if you want to pull my jock strap about it- so be it. In regards to the Futurity, once again on the jock strap theme- you treat people the way you want to be treated- with that in mind- people must treat you like crap. I dont like the way FP is fitting into this race- especially the qualifications his connections make dont inspire a win bet...................

SLEWPIE> Jason,Steve Haskins and others have Friesan Fire rated below par>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert says: And they are right..........

SLEWPIE>.And all he's done is nothing but win his last 2 races,fairly easy.And some still don't take him seriously.If that's not a "rodney" syndrome,then what is..The betting public aren't idiots..well..anyways,FP has no support at the windows because he's a sucker's bet.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert says: If you weren’t always sticking your foot in your mouth- you would have noticed I was talking about FP and he has never finished worse than second in regards to “Rodney”. Your new found love, Friesan Fire is high on the lists of Dick Downey, Johnny Avello, Jay Privman and although Ellis Star picks your other horse Clem to win- he also has FF in his top 8.............

SLEWPIE > Meaning he doesn't produce,get it.Running 2nd or 3rd is Not getting it done.>>>>>>>>> LMFAO- Seriously! Do you have these lines printed in advance? You could have made the same bs statements about I/W/R, Papa Clem at Hollywood, before the Lecomte FF lost 3 of 4 races and was beaten by Flying Pegasus. PON is another horse that lost 3 of his first 4- off the board twice- it took Pample three tries to win his first race- when you are talking all this crap, what are you actually trying to say? Since you don’t think too much, my point was that he was 20-1 in the Futurity and and 11-1 in the Risen Star and finished a close 2nd both times. The one time he was 3-5 he won the race, when Flying Pegasus was 2-1 he won the race. A ‘sucker’ bet would have been betting a favorite and getting trashed- as if you bet the favorite last year in the Florida Derby, Tampa Bay Derby, Lexington, Bluegrass, Wood etc.....................

SLEWPIE >"Looking at Giant Oak is like looking at I Want Revenge"...What? In what way, shape or form genius. Your feeble explanation did nothing to clear that correlation up.>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert says:What is the cream that you put on hemorrhoids? I guess I better find out as I feel a big one growing here. When you look at I/W/R- and you toss the Santa Anita races since he didn’t like the surface- he suddenly looks 8-5 as Hollywood was the most similar to Aqueduct. You look at Giant Oak- he ran on 4 different tracks and even proved himself on turf. If you ignore the Bourbon- a race Prado was pressed towards the rail in- and in which he had to check several times- he stands out in this race. I mentioned the Futurity because he showed he has a huge talent and is very mature based on his 5 w move that only just missed at the wire in his start right after the Bourbon. It was a G-2 race- he showed that the nightmare trip in the G-3 Bourbon didn’t scar him or cause him to ‘look for excuses’ as you say. If you look at how he bounced back- and watch him in the Risen Star- it should be obvious that he will win and pay around $ 8..................

SLEWPIE> Don't worry, Papa Clem will have no trouble with the surface. Or was he bred for Synthetic surfaces only..Mel Stute has been permanently stabled @ Santa Anita for over 50 years.His horses go where he goes.No Problem.>>>>>>>>>> Robert says: I really don’t care about Stute, California or breeding in regards to Papa Clem. I said he was use to the synthetic surface- has only worked there his entire career- didn’t run well at Hollywood and he is a sucker bet- as you say- on Saturday..................

SLEWPIE>I could give a rats a$$ even if you spoke to Bernie Mac.But What does 2 Giants Causeways breaking their maiden @ GP and Graham almost winning have ANYTHING to do with this subject.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert says: Do you realize how stupid you look Slewpie? That I didn’t say; Hey JS you know I heard…………….’ Instead I just posted some thoughts- and this is the best you can do? LMAO…..It isn’t your blog- if you don’t like something that is posted- start your own page and you can count on the fact that nobody could stand you after one topic. You would be doing it alone- even then you probably still find fault with yourself.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

marc W — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:09:48 GMT

OK I was a clocker and saw many horses and how they move and rate. SJ was as close to a push button horse as I ever saw. In that Belmont he wanted to go. Shoe got Gallant Man beat others say-yes he stood up-very briefly-and he wasn't a winner yet at that point but he still had a chance in the next furlong to win anyway. I thought Pat Day who was one of the best ever-people blame him for Easy Goer losing-I don't --but I think both Forty Niner and Menifee probably should have won their Derbies with better rides. I can be critical. If so they wouldn't have been sent to Turkey, and Japan and help the breed here. Birdstone a slight small horse was a lot better than given credit, he just couldn't stand up to a lot of racing. Smarty Jones had 5 at the 1/4 pole and was being called a superhorse, if he was he would have won. Had he rated that day -he would have. I have known a number of top flight riders personally. These 1100 pound animals don't always do what the 110lb jock wants. I had the pick 4 and 6 alive that day-I really did-I don't blame Elliot.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

da3hoss — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:36:50 GMT

LDP: Smarty's only flaw was he was not easy to rate, did not like to be headed...other riders knew that...in a one and one-half mile race you cannot run flat-out the entire race and beat other good horses...you said Elliot was urging him and Smarty wasn't running flat out...well, yes he was, he was running as fast as he could at that point after running so hard to begin with...meanwhile Birdstone just ran his even, steady race and since he was bred to love distance his efficient style won that long Belmont stretch...was he "better" than SJ, well, on that day he was...

PS I loved SJ since early in his career, but I bet Birdstone as the only horse that could beat SJ if SJ would not willingly rate in the Belmont.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

m palmer — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:06:47 GMT

Robert H, your postings reflect a lot of confidence in your evaluation system. It appears you are ignoring one important factor. The winner of a race is not determined prior to its running. If that were the case the contender with the best PP would be awarded the race. In 2004 Friends Lake a New York bred won the $1 million (Gl) Florida Derby Florida Derby at 37-1. On paper this regally bred son of A.P. Indy did not reflect the credentials to beat the field. Evaluators like yourself discounted his third place finish in the (Glll) Holy Bull because he was beaten by Second Of June a colt who was foaled the June 2nd and cost $7500. How could a colt sired by a former HOY, out of a broodmare that earned $1,011,953 and herself a daughter of a former HOY (Spend A Buck) be beaten by a $7500 purchase? (He had to be no good)Most of these 3YO normally show improvement after each race. It is alleged some improve over night. You are discounting NTH's 4th place finish in the Risen Star just as punters discounted Friends Lake's 3rd place finish in the Holy Bull. NTH is a well bred colt that was sired by an unbeaten champion out of an unraced broodmare that reflect inbreeding in her 3rd generation to the influential Buckpasser.

Dismiss him at your peril.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:17:10 GMT

Alan,

I understand what you mean, but i did rewatch that video, and Ellito had smarty sitting third or second for seven furlongs, then moved him to the lead with five furlongs left. In a mile and a half race you just don't do that, esspecially when you know you have a target on your back. Had he waited another two or three furlongs to make that move Smarty might've had enough left in the tank to hold off. As i said i'm not going to take anything away from the winner, he was a good horse and proved it in the travers, but if you ran the Belmont ten more times Smarty would win hands down.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

LDP — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:11:51 GMT

Robert,

I'm not the one who needs to chill that would be you. I stated my oppinion, and i will stick to for as long as i live. I'm not going to feel sorry that you don't like it, and honestly, i know you aren't sorry if i don't agree with yours and thats fine, wanna know why? Well this is America buddy and everyone is allowed to have their own oppinion and right to express it. Also, I will admit i was not there, but i'm proud to say i was not one of those fans who trashed Birdstone, he's a nice horse. Now can you please chill and just let me have my own oppinion?

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

GunBow — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:10:39 GMT

What do you all think about the overall quality of the Louisiana Derby? To borrow from Steve Haskin, does anyone see a "Wow" horse in this race? To be honest, I just don't see a true star in the field. Of course, 3 year olds at this time of the year can improve quickly. But does anyone see a horse turning in a I Want Revenge, Quality Road type performance that forces everyone to rethink their rankings? To use a college basketball analogy, the Louisiana Derby field reminds me of the Big Ten(with the possible exception of Michigan State). There's alot of solid, decent entries, but no one talented enough to make a serious run to the Final Four/Kentucky Derby winners circle.

For all the criticism the California horses had received before the Gotham about low speed figures,the Louisiana horses haven't exactly been setting the world ablaze. None of the top choices in the L. Derby have run faster than a 96 Beyer. For me, the Beyers of horses like Friesan Fire(96), Giant Oak(90), Patena(90),and Flying Pegasus(93)are much more troubling than the figs of the horses running over synthetics in California.

In general, I view Synthetic Beyers just like turf Beyers. For the same class level/the same level of performance, turf Beyers run 7-10 points lower than dirt Beyers. For example, the very best 3 year olds on turf this time of year run Beyers in the 92-98 range; Beyers for the top dirt horses, as we have seen, will be much higher. Since synth races play out so much like turf races, synth Beyers are better interpretted using the turf scale rather than the dirt scale. A 96 on synthetic is quite good for a 3 year old this time of year; Einstein just got a 100 for the Big Cap and Raven's Pass ran a 110 for his Breeders Cup Classic.

As a rule of thumb when comparing dirt and synthetic horses, or analyzing how a horse moving from synth will Beyer on dirt, I usually add 7-10 points to the synthetic Beyers. Otherwise, it really is like apples and oranges. So, I would expect a horse that earns synth Beyers of 96 to run about a 103 on dirt; others have referred to this as the "dirt bump". The increase in the Beyer from the "bump" does not reflect any improvement on dirt, it is simply the result of using a different scale. A horse equally good on synth and dirt will earn a 96 on synth and a 103 on dirt.

There is no guarantee, however, that a horse will be equally good on dirt as it is on synth, or vice cersa. A horse could be like IWR, and be about 8 lengths faster on dirt;IWR's synth Beyers translated into 99-102 dirt Beyers, but since he also happens to be 8 lengths better on dirt, the Gothan came up a 113(21 point jump).

Back to the Louisiana Derby, Papa Clem's 94 Beyer on synth in the Lewis equates(by my estimation), into a 100-104 Beyer on dirt. That would make him the fastest horse in the race by a good deal. However, one cannot assume that just becaause IWR ran just as well on dirt as on synth(actually much better), that Papa Clem will. Others have brought up that Papa did not run well at Hollywood, and the general consensus in California (as I found out over the holidays) is that Hollywood is much more like dirt than SA. Yet, if he's only a few lengths slower on dirt, his adjusted Beyers still make him competitive.

For those with trouble giving synth Beyers a "bump" when comapring them to dirt Beyers, remember that it is a fairly well established rule of handicapping to make adjustments when comparing turf with dirt Beyers. For example, a 118 Beyer on turf is considered a stronger performance than a 118 Beyer on dirt. The highest turf Beyer ever recorded was a 119 by Miesque in the BC Mile, while there have been dirt Beyers into the 130s. No one suggests that because Ghostzapper ran a 128, he is 6 lengths faster than the fastest turf runner ever. Instead, it is recognized that the figs are from different scales, and not comparable at face value.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

GunBow — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:07:34 GMT

LDP: Maybe Elliot didn't give Smarty the best ride he could have, but he was not caught napping in the stretch. Of all the things Elliot could be criticized for in that race, I really don't think that is one of them.

Rocker- Perhaps the Blue Grass will lose favor among trainers prepping for the Derby now that Keeneland is synthetic. However, 2 years is not close to being enough time to draw any far reaching conclusions, particularly since, in 1 of those 2 years, the Blue Grass porduced the Derby winner. With a $750,000 purse and grade 1 status, it will be able to draw at least a few quality horses. It is possible, though, that the Arkansas Derby, Wood, and Florida Derby maybe become much more important in comparison. A race fading from importance much faster than the Blue Grass is the Lane's End at Turfway.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Ascot Park — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 05:22:26 GMT

Why isn't The Arkansas Derby a Grade 1 yet? Some people ask why isn't The Bluegrass isn't a million dollars, and that's because The Bluegrass doesn't have to be a million dollars. It's the freakin Bluegrass Stakes that's why. I do think The Arkansas Derby should be a Grade 1 though and not because it's a million dollars, but because of the past 5 years and beyond, that's all. Also I do think Gayego won in Dubai just recently.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Slew.em.All — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:21:20 GMT

In All that Jaw-Jacking you posted,did you say the La.

Derby is not a good fit for Flying Peglegg? Didn't you declare him the winner in an earlier post bobbie? AWW! don't tell me the Nicks' report swayed your utmost confidence in your boy. Way to stick to your guns.You're all over the place now.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Slew.em.All — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:59:05 GMT

Bobbie: Funny how some people get all riled-up when someone disagrees with them.Reminds me of Jr.High..Awe,memories.

Anyways...How do you know FF can't win 3 races in a row.Did you speak to Larry Jones too.Or was it his Jockey,Groom,Hot-walker or some inside info? That statement is ridiculous.

Do you really think FP ran "great" in the Risen Star? He finished behind FF.He ran OK..FF won and his performance wasn't great either. Flying Pegasus was coming off a long break,going 2-turns,running more than 7f for the first time and had to run hard all the way..ingredients for a major bounce reaction. And last year's Futurity is last year's news.Friesan Fire is a whole new animal..You should know better Bobbie.

Jason,Steve Haskins and others have Friesan Fire rated below par.And all he's done is nothing but win his last 2 races,fairly easy.And some still don't take him seriously.If that's not a "rodney" syndrome,then what is..The betting public aren't idiots..well..anyways,FP has no support at the windows because he's a sucker's bet.Meaning he doesn't produce,get it.Running 2nd or 3rd is Not getting it done.

"Looking at Giant Oak is like looking at I Want Revenge"...What? In what way,shape or form genius.Your feeble explanation did nothing to clear that correlation up.

Don't worry,Papa Clem will have no trouble with the surface.Or was he bred for Synthetic surfaces only..Mel Stute has been permanently stabled @ Santa Anita for over 50 years.His horses go where he goes.No Problem.

I could give a rats a$$ even if you spoke to Bernie Mac.But What does 2 Giants Causeways breaking their maiden @ GP and Graham almost winning have ANYTHING to do with this subject.

re: Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Robert H — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:55:51 GMT

OMG Alan- yeah- people ran out of the track as it was a record crowd and 120,000 didn't come to see that result; however, the WC was full of plenty of people screaming at Prado and it made all the NY papers.

Marylou Whitney seemed shaken by the booing as she clutched some flowers- I remember that as I took a picture. The police were even moving the big mouths away under threat of arrest.

I also remember it made the front page of USA today- her with some flowers and the incident was mentioned in detail.