Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

MonicaV — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:41:52 GMT

Big Brown Fans, what happened today, 6/7/08? BB ran out of gas after a mile. A sure win? Didn't happen. As proven before, the Belmont is the true test and he didn't have anything left in the tank. The steriods were out of his system after not having any injected for 2 months. BB wasn't even a factor in the race. How do you explain that? He wasn't lame, injury I could understand but glad it didn't happen. He looked fine after the race. He isn't the greatest horse in 30 years. He's a good 3 year old who has peaked.

He will probably never race again and he sure wouldn't have beat Curlin.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

insider p — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:50:15 GMT

I met BB back in jan.at pm fl.he was healing from quarter crack,I was there for every race he has won and all I can say is he is a magnificent animal.The problem is there is no colt even close to him on the track that can show how super he really is,he just blows them away.Michael I and company would like nothing better then to hook up with curlin it would be great for the sport which we all love and whats the worst that could happen one of those fine animals would be runner up to a champion.I think that at this stage of the game BB is a better 3 yr old then curlin was, he's proven that much agree?I don't think curlin's connections wants to run at SA but if they do we'll be there as long as BB is healthy.I can't make any of you BB knockers love BB but,come watch him run and you'll realize your seeing something special.I leave for NY fri.can't wait to watch him romp again.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Karen — Fri, 30 May 2008 20:28:44 GMT

Robert in Houston: Not sure if your still around or posting but please give me a break. Of course you use times to know how well a horse ran. How do you think trainers know how their horse is training. Not only do you use times, you also take into consideration all the factors of a race. Track condition, head winds, post position, how many horses are in the race, opening quarters, closing quarters. You need to go back to racing 101 if you don't think you use times to compare horses. Not just record breaking times either. BB broke from the 20th position and ran 4-5 wide. He ran in a strong head wind in the preakness. C'mon Robert, think about it.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

RaceAway — Tue, 27 May 2008 19:25:18 GMT

I like Casino Drive. I read he faced competition like BB in Japan..and won. Hopefully, for him, Belmont is a cakewalk.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Robert in Houston — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:59:49 GMT

Liz said; "Just because there was no regulation of drugs "back in the day," doesn't mean the horses were all frauds. In fact, they had to be pretty darn tough to survive the damage some of that junk did to their systems, and since there was really no way to regulate the use of drugs, the playing field had it's own (perverted) version of "level" since everyone had the same free choice to use or not use drugs. " >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Liz, his original owners- who were honest men- never drugged Sir Barton and he was badly beaten in 5 of his first 6 races, he was sold on the cheap and then it was decided by Ross & Bedwell to use him as a rabbit for Billy Kelly- he didnt fade- the drugs made him a different horse- the words of his jockey prove my point.

In regards to times- are you serious? Unbridled's Song ran the Florida Derby faster than BB, Curlin and Bernardini ran the Preakness faster than BB, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Grindstone etc all ran the Derby faster than BB- as a racing fan- you should know never to use times to compare horses unless it is a record.

You can say BB set this track record, or this stakes record to make a point- as he has never done that- I don't see how you can bring up the time of his races as an issue-you should know better.

To Karen- you see all this hype about BB- I have been through this MANY TIMES- so many examples- Copelan comes to mind in regards to a horse that reminds me of BB. Copelan had all the hype as well.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Dawne — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:04:31 GMT

Hey Liz,

Congrats! Always good to hear when someone comes out on top.

The topic of drugs is an interesting one. I have a friend who works in a test barn and has pointed out on a number of occasions that they can not test for all the drugs horses are given. That's impossible. That's why some trainers use human drugs for example. A vast amount will not test.

Dutrow claimed winstrol helped his horse's coats. LMAO. Corn oil helps a horses coat and is perfectly legal. Steroids serve a purpose: performance enhancers. I can't imagine a time when racing cleans up it's act.

I did read a funny comment someone made: "Where the hell is John Servis when you need him?"

Let's look forward to the Belmont and hope BB is truly a freak. I did read Dutrow's comment that he would go on the Traver's. I know I'll be there!

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

jbpegasus — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:38:20 GMT

Hey folks, steroid therapy is only banned in Iowa and very soon in Indiana. So good or bad, right or wrong, Dutrow did nothing wrong in that area.

Also before you put down Denis of Cork, look at the replay again. Borel took the horse from last to third in less than a quarter mile. I do not think he will beat BB, but I think he can make the race interesting. To say that BB will win by 15 lengths is just dreaming.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Karen — Wed, 21 May 2008 20:25:18 GMT

Robert in Houston: Clearly BB could have run with the likes of SS, Hard Spun and Curlin last year. One does not have to look to hard to see why. It isn't rocket science.Everyone keeps saying BB would have gotten ran into the ground last year. How do you figure? I respect all of your opinions and not wanting to label BB a superhorse or great. But stop beating up on him. He is all class. He does what is asked of him when it is asked of him and he does it easily with a tremendous turn of foot. To some, that makes him brilliant. To others that makes him great. The mile and a half will definately be a challenge. I feel he can do it and feel that it is in his breeding. Damascus was brilliant and he had a tremendous turn of foot. He is remembered for his crushing closing runs. Is that where BB gets it??? Only the racing God's know for sure. Even if he wins the TC, there will still be non believers and naysayers. Why? Because people have chosen not to like him. People think a horse has to race his elders to earn a place in history. Never lose sight of what the triple crown is and what it is made of. There is a reason it hasn't been done in 30 years. All the greats of last year couldn't do it. Will BB win? Nobody knows. But I for one will be cheering for the Big Brown race horse come Belmont day.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Wanda — Wed, 21 May 2008 19:56:20 GMT

Just read Dutrow's comments on steroids.Come on guys he's playing dumb.Any trainer that gets to the level he's at knows exactly what is given to horses under his care.I agree with Liz's comments who knows what good horses got for a pre-race 20-30-40 years ago.I'm not against steroids per say,they can help a racehorse alot as Dutrow says.They can rebuild muscle,help them eat better,and in a gelding make them more agressive. When you are at that level of racing you can use all the legal pre-race meds there are and nobody will blink an eye.I do not believe in giving steroids to sales yearlings or two year olds in training but they do. It's naive to think that these big stables don't go there.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Liz — Wed, 21 May 2008 19:17:47 GMT

I don't know if history will determine that Big Brown is a better horse than Street Sense, Hard Spun, or Curlin, or that he is a momentary flash in the pan. I do think his shortened career will hurt his legacy, just like it has for Street Sense and Hard Spun. However, I do know that if you run his Derby tape side by side with the '07 tape you will notice that the big ol' brown bag o' bones comes home in the clear ahead of all three of those fine horses. You cannot take away the fact that he ran a faster Derby than did any of those three horses.

I say only history will prove the greatness of any one horse not the public sentiment based on the outcome of one or two races.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Liz — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:59:13 GMT

Just because there was no regulation of drugs "back in the day," doesn't mean the horses were all frauds. In fact, they had to be pretty darn tough to survive the damage some of that junk did to their systems, and since there was really no way to regulate the use of drugs, the playing field had it's own (perverted) version of "level" since everyone had the same free choice to use or not use drugs.

I'm not applauding this history. I'm just saying that we should not in any way diminish those horses or their accomplishments given the facts of their particular time in history, nor should we be blind to that history.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Robert in Houston — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:40:09 GMT

Sir Barton- I missed a word in that previous posting- it should have said; 'HIS JOCKEY LOFTUS SAID HE COULDN'T RUN A LICK UNLESS HE WAS JUICED UP'.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Robert in Houston — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:36:12 GMT

THIS WAS SAID BY A BB FANATIC; "Big Brown is one of the best horses to step foot on any race track anywhere.

He is an absolute super star that will win the Belmont and the Triple Crown unless he gets sick, breaks down, or gets one of the most horrible rides of all time.

When you look at what Big Brown has done and how he has done it...there is only one word you can use to describe this colt....BRILLIANT!">>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is actually funny- seriously! If BB goes on to win the Belmont- he still wouldn't even make the top 40 horses of all-time. As a matter of fact- I WOULDNT RATE HIM ANY EDGE OVER CURLIN, SS OR HARD SPUN IF YOU RAN HIM IN LAST YEARS TRIPLE CROWN!

1. Curlin did lose an incredible Belmont against a filly that had WON 3 grade 1 races in a row! Eight Belles lost 4 of her first 6 races- non a stakes, then beat nothing special to make it to the KD. The Florida Derby.....Smooth Air? The Preakness- that field was a disgrace.

2. I don't blame BB for the horrible quality of what he has beaten, but don't tell me he is a SUPERHORSE- that is absurd.

3. IF BEATING that Florida Derby field- and that Preakness field is a test of greatness- EVEN ZANJERO would pass that test, or Hard Spun, or Curlin, or SS- so spare me the SUPERHORSE stuff.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Robert in Houston — Wed, 21 May 2008 18:18:56 GMT

In regards to the steroid usage- many authors have touched on the topic in racing, though never have any even ventured speculation that Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, Secretariat, Round Table- just to name a few- were ever on anything. The most famous case of using drugs on a famous horse is the first Triple Crown winner- Sir Barton. His own jockey Johny Loftus said himself he could run a lick without it. Although illegal even then- horses weren't tested obviously. At one point, America's leading jockey-Loftus called out the leading trainer in the nation- Bedwell, and (LOL) the leading owner Ross refused to believe it- since that would mean he would have to fess up to the fact that his horses were all frauds. Sir Barton ran off the board five times out of 6 races- was sold on the cheap, broke his maiden by winning the Kentucky Derby

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

bomber bill — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:09:49 GMT

robert, your right just like in baseball there is no test for it. I know that horses back in the day also were giving drugs,but dutrow coming out and saying it was a bad move because all it has done is take away from the horse his training skills and the sport in general.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Liz — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:47:24 GMT

Brian, I totally agree with your comment about BB making a top broodmare sire, that builds history doesn't it? Watch for that X-factor.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Jason Shandler — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:37:51 GMT

Draynay: I didn't do great, but I still hit the Preakness tri and had almost $300 left of my original $500. You lost every race. Bottom line: I win the bet, you lose. Send me my case of energy drink!! lol

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Liz — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:12:16 GMT

Bill,

As to your steroids issue, I agree it is a big problem, however, until there is standardized testing and regulations it is a moot point.

First of all, I would NEVER question the greatness of Secretariat, or any of the other wonderful horses that have come before, but here is a very basic question for everyone. How do you know what substances any of those great horses of the past may have been given while they were running?

There were far more substances available than many people realize. I am not pointing fingers at any individual or any specific horse, but we need to be honest with our selves, at least a portion of our old beloved champions were carrying a number of substances on board that would never pass the "pee cup" today... That is just a fact of history. Try to remember, there was a time when the Coca Cola that was sold over the counter as a soft drink contained cocaine derivatives.

Just because Dutrow admitted his acts doesn't mean that the other horses you hope will beat him are clean. Standardizing the testing is the first step. Until then, everyone has a free pass.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Robert in Houston — Wed, 21 May 2008 15:15:20 GMT

1. I take nothing away from BB- he has run some nice races and it isn't his fault that this is one of the worst 3 year old divisions in years- we had an incredible time last year, so this is the flip side to the coin.

2. The Florida Derby and Preakness field were two of the worst assembled in the history of each race- only 3 of the 12 Preakness starters had ever won a graded stakes. The horse who came in 2nd- Macho Again- was badly beaten both graded attempts before the Preakness as well. Racecar wasn't even on the board his last 3 races before the Preakness- K Bear had been beaten 15 lengths his last two- Stevil hadn't won since Oct and had lost since then by a combined 25 lengths, Giant Moon- off the board last two, R Tuckers only win was a Maiden- it was the worst field ever assembled at Pimlico. I wasn't surprised at how I Crane finished- look how bad the field was.

2. Rags To Riches- She won THREE grade 1 races leading up to the Belmont- for those of you that keep comparing Eight Belles to her- it's laughable. She had won 5 of 6 leading up to the Belmont- the last 3 all Grade- 1. Eight Belles lost 4 of her first 6 races- NONE EVEN A MINOR STAKES- then received her claim to fame beating Pure Clan- a filly that hasn't won since last November.

3. To those that say BB needs the TC for racing- LMAO- If BB needs to win the TC to save racing- it would only show the sad state that racing is in. Long gone are the days where we would see incredible two year olds mature and race for years- horses like Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, or see great battles like the Alysheba-Ferdinand saga- far more than the past- all racing is about today is money.

4. I will grant the fact that Denis of Cork has a chance to hit the board at Belmont- but only because this crop is so bad. He was off the board and easily beaten at Hawthorne- to those that say Cork was gaining on something at the end of the Derby.

Amazing how people talk about greatness so easily- Slew running the fastest mile ever by a 2 year old in the Champagne was greatness-Secretariat blazing the track and setting a world record in the Belmont was greatness, EVEN Sham- running under 2 minutes in the Preakness with two broken teeth and a mouth full of blood- I would take the Preakness Sham ran over any Big Brown race.

5. It isn't BB's fault his rivals are pathetic- but I don't see a superhorse.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

brian — Wed, 21 May 2008 14:59:34 GMT

Dennis of Cork? Are all of you mad? He was beaten by 10 in the Derby. Is he going to be that much better? No way. BB is so good because he runs absolutly relaxed. He expends very little energy during a race as he never fights the jock. I will be very surprised if he wins by less than 15 because he is that much better than everybody else. I do think that he needs to race against older horses at least once. I think they will do that at least once as his stud fee will be hurt by not racing after the Belmont.

As to his worth as a stud I think he is going to be much like Secretariat in that I do not think he will be a great sire of race horses, but will be a great broodmare sire. The similarities he shows with Big Red in his breeding are spooky. Both are from speed favoring sires with outstanding female sides. The big heart and lungs that BB has are from the Nuryev line and Secrertariat got those things as well from his dam side. Nothing is exact in breeding but that is how i see it shaping up.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Bryce Be Quick — Wed, 21 May 2008 13:43:50 GMT

Karen-- appreciate your reply to 90Proof-- I would only add that final fraction cut into a strong headwind AND, of course, Kent had him wrapped up as well. Since the Belmont likely his last go, one wonders if he does shake lose, if Kent will be given the green light to let him run to the wire this time? With that turn of foot, one can only imagine if he was in Europe what he might have done on the turf? BTW-- did you see that 4 furlong drill Tale Of Ekati put up yesterday? He's ready.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

draynay — Wed, 21 May 2008 13:03:15 GMT

I told you so!!!! Big Brown will cruise to the Triple Crown. As for our "contest" Jay, you didn't fare so well did you? I have been right all along, give me my due.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

cybertron log — Wed, 21 May 2008 12:41:31 GMT

Ooh, I hate situations where you have to choose between two good horses. I think it'll be amazing if Brownie finally won the Triple Crown, but to the people who think that'll save the sport, I laugh; if Big Brown is to save the sport, winning just the Triple Crown isn't the way to do it. He needs to stick around, and that's where the problem is.

I'm also big on families and there is no finer family than the one Casino Drive's a member of. I am mystified as to why Drive's connections chose Kent D. for the Peter Pan, but it's been said and done, and I find it hilarious how D. sang two different tunes on Drive, one after the Pan and one after the Preakness.

Whatever the case, I admit to being a bit selfish when I say I have at least fifty years to see a Triple Crown happen, but it's a once-in-a-lifetime chance that a mare produces three straight classic winners.

Good luck to them all.

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

bomber bill — Wed, 21 May 2008 02:37:06 GMT

I have been a horseracing fan my whole life. I spend countless hours and money on this sport. And i would love nothing more than to see big brown get beat, i agree a triple crown winner would be great for the sport. But how come nobody is talking about dutrow admitting to giving big brown steroids? So even if he does win the triple crown he can never be conpared to the likes of "big red". He's juiced just like barry bonds. How good is he without the steroids?

re: Triple Crown Lock? Hold Your Horses

Liz — Wed, 21 May 2008 02:06:52 GMT

Dawne,

I hit the tri at CDH, I'm still high from that one.

I had BB on top of Macho Uno at the Preakness, unfortunately, I had Kentucky Bear behind him. But, the day wasn't a huge loss, I hit tris in the distaff and the Hirsh Jacobs... and I singled the filly in the Oaks. Better than average weekend!

Can't expect that kind of luck to hold, might need to quit for the rest of the year. ;)