Casino Drive? No Thanks

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

MonicaV — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:42:58 GMT

Why does everyone assume that Curlin can't run on a synthetic surface? That's been mentioned a few times.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Phileboy — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 01:16:44 GMT

Hey, Draynay, you putz! What happened? When I gave you a million reasons why I thought Casino Drive could beat Big Brown, you acted indignant and asked me "what was talking about" and asked me to "wake up." At least the connections of CD knew enough to scratch him when they thought he was hurt; what was Big Brown's excuse? Obviously BB's people thought he wasn't hurting -- he WAS worth $50 million (we'll see if they make that back in stud fees) -- so they thought he was fine and he couldn't beat a rank outsider!!! (Pardon me for a second while I try to stop laughing!) By the way, do you know that out of his entire group of opponents -- eight horses -- a total of four of them combined to win four graded stakes. A pretty pitiful lot by any standard, no? But you sought to lecture us by saying, "If you let Big Brown just clip along and post fast fractions and let him get away you have NO CHANCE of catching him. That is what makes him the best horse in the world. If you stay with him you get burned if you don't you are left trying to catch a horse that can't be caught. Just admire the first Triple Crown winner in 30 years and enjoy the whipping he will put on this field." Some whipping!!! Looks like you're the one who should be publicly flogged for taking something for granted in a game where it's difficult to take much for granted anytime. How does it feel to be, without question, the biggest jerk on this board for extolling a horse who never beat older horses (and never will, I'm guessing, because he's gonna be retired with some bs injury, you just wait and see) and wound up running like the nag the milkman's uses to pull his wagon when all the chips were on the line? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Matt V — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:32:22 GMT

That was some whipping BB put on the field. Oh wait he finished last. Draynay, was there a maiden in the Belmont? Guadalcanal, right? He finished ahead of BB cuz BB ran LAST!! Please, any handicapping tips you can provide, please do, you seem to be SO knowledgeable. BB is a good horse NOT a great one, in a mediocre year, he and Dutrow showed their true colors today.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Slew.em.All — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:14:42 GMT

So,why can't Casino Drive win the Belmont in his 3rd start,and BB can win the Derby in his 4th?Regardless of what you all think of his slow "gallops" that is the way they do things in Japan where 1 1/2 mile races are practically the norm.Look,they're prepping him to run in the Belmont and NOT the Peter Pan.Why should they put speed into him,it's a marathon race remember...They've been pointing to this race since Day 1...And why should he "bounce"?If BB hasn't,then why should Casino Drive?..Oh!right I almost forgot,BB is one of a kind.NOT!..bruised hoof and all,Casino Drive is a very Live horse tomorrow.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

draynay — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:21:02 GMT

That easy slow style and then sprint into stretch ain't going to cut it here. If you let Big Brown just clip along and post fast fractions and let him get away you have NO CHANCE of catching him. That is what makes him the best horse in the world. If you stay with him you get burned if you don't you are left trying to catch a horse that can't be caught. Just admire the first Triple Crown winner in 30 years and enjoy the whipping he will put on this field.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Billy D. — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:11:20 GMT

To Draynay: One major point I forgot to mention in regards to Casino Drive. Conquistador Cielo had one big advantage over 'CD' other than talent and a sloppy track, he had Woody training him.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Billy D. — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:46:53 GMT

To Draynay: As far as the extra weight on Casino Drive, it's meaningless. I thought the same thing in '82 when Conquistador Cielo was picking up 15 lbs. off his Met Mile win, and broke from the 11 hole, boy was I wrong! The difference between Casino Drive and 'CC' is 'CC' was coming off a smashing win in record time. Conquistador was perfectly fit and the Met served as a perfect tightener for the Belmont.

Arabs and other foreign people make me laugh when they say that perhaps 'Americans should learn from us' as an Arab owner/trainer stated before the Derby a couple of years ago to which their Derby entry promptly came up short....again. How does the saying go? 'When in Rome do as the Romans do.' I never got why some foreign horseman insist "their way" is the better way, when American horseman have been winning races training this way for well over a hundred years. I'm all for international competition, however even great british trainer John Gosden (who I hated to see go back to europe)said Americans train differently, "a bit faster in the mornings than in europe" and agrees everyone should train like the saying goes "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I would think Americans train differently for speed and on the dirt, since Europeans tend to race longer distances hence the slower work times that is if their timed at all. Perhaps they should start timing their horses with a sun dial?

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

draynay — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:05:53 GMT

Jason move to your left a bit so I can get at him... Phileboy what are you talking about. Did you stop and think how Casino Drive is going to like another 10 pounds on his back?

Slow workouts are slow for a reason I have never in my life seen any horse post slow workouts and then wake up in a Graded Stakes race.. this is not some new type of training this is a horse who is not ready and has no business stepping into a race like the Belmont Stakes to get his head kicked in by Big Brown. Will Casino Drive "Bounce" lol... he is bouncing all over the place now....wake up.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Jason Shandler — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:13:17 GMT

Phileboy: You make solid, well thought out points. That's why horse racing is so much fun. We have two seperate lines of thinking. I'll take my chances with a horse who has won three grade I races in a row, all with ease. You take yours with a horse who will be making his third ever start, one who had everything go his way in his only U.S. start. May the best man win. Good luck.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

khare — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:32:07 GMT

Flyinhome: Fusaichi Pegasus a Japanese horse? Not by a long shot. Just because he had a Japanese owner and "Fusaichi" in his name doesn't make him a Japanese horse. He was trained in America by a non-Japanese trainer & never once ran in Japan (4 races in California, 2 in NY, 2 at Churchill and 1 at Pimlico). He's no more Japanese than Denis of Cork is Irish (Irish trainer & named after an Irish County).

Also someone earlier mentioned about how the Japanese train different and how that is why they come to the US and win so many of our big races. What a joke. If I'm not mistaken Cesario was the 1st Japanese horse to win a Grade 1 in America in the 2005 American Oaks & since then, it has only happened maybe a couple of more times. I don't see many Japanese horses come to the US to compete and there is a reason for that.

Finally draynay: Here is a Curlin fan speaking up. Big Brown is a very talented horse and there is no denying that, but come on! I hope Curlin and Big Brown meet up before both head off to lucrative breeding careers. It will be the 1st time Big Brown has a truly talented horse look him in the eye past the 1/4 pole. Once Desormeaux has to use the whip (which he hasn't but once and that was in the FL Derby and you saw how Big Brown was weaving around the track then), it's lights out for Big Brown. Curlin will "flush" him down and win by 3 or 4 lengths. Heck, I hope Big Brown runs in a race against Curlin. If not, then I will be stuck cashing 1/5 win tickets instead of 8/5. The value of your Big Brown win tickets, however, will not change a bit. They would still be losers and worth nada.

Good luck to all and to all you Casino Drive backers, please run to the window and hammer the BB/CD exacta! Please, I'm begging you! That just means that much more in the exacta pool and that much higher of a payout for the BB/Denis of Cork exacta. I'm with you on this one Jason. The BB/Denis of Cork exacta box is a no brainer.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Phileboy — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:15:39 GMT

Hey, there, Jason . . . As you might remember, I DID post the ICE COLD triple in the Preakness in an earlier communique on this board for all to see. Yes, even a broken clock is right twice a day and a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again, so I'm aware that that bit of prognosticating prowess doesn't mean I'm destined to be a genius come Saturday -- although it does make me AT LEAST as smart as anyone else who posted on your blog. With that in mind, I must say that I respectfully disagree with your assessment on Casino Drive's chances, particularly your belief that he's more likely to bounce than to improve. No offense, but your logic here eludes me. Let's see if I understand your argument here: one of the key reasons you're diminishing CD's chances is that he had months to prepare for the Peter Pan and won't be having as long to prepare for the Belmont. Well, by that standard, ought not BB be MORE LIKELY to bounce? I mean BB will have had LESS time to recuperate from his rigors of tke Kentucky Derby and Preakness than did CD from the Peter Pan, no?

And while the upcoming Belmont, by virtue of the competition (which is certainly going to be stiffer) and the distance (which will be longer)is certainly going to be more taxing than was CD's run in the Peter Pan, it will similarly pose stiffer competition and a greater distance problem than did BB's Preakness. You also degrade CD's chances because you note that he had a rabbit in the Peter Pan that softened up his opposition, which he won't have in his Belmont run. Fair enough. But even if you have a rabbit, you still need to be good enough to win -- and CD, who seemed to virtually get left at the break in the Peter Pan, still ran tractably, right behind the quick pace turning from home. He then split horses in the center of the track, seemingly under mild urging, like breaking sticks. Furthermore, CD ran his Peter Pan after just clearing quarantine, shipping 7,000 miles and off a 10-week layoff, without the benefit of a prep race! So isn't it AT LEAST as likely -- if not MORE LIKLEY -- that he'll IMPROVE, off what was meant to be a prep race for the Belmont? You also seem, Jason, far to willing to give BB the benefit of the doubt to outrun his pedigree by winning at a mile and a half, while suspecting that CD won't run to HIS 12 furlong-plus pedigree. As far as the concerns you see with his slow workout times (at least compared to the vigorous one you cite, pre-Peter Pan). . . well, yes, it's rather odd. However, from where I sit, these slow workouts would ring more of an alarm bell if they were MERELY slow -- say, four furlongs in 50 seconds or five in 1:03 -- rather than DAWDLINGLY slow. They're so very slow it's difficult for me to imagine that this isn't by purposeful design. The Japanese are, from their business practices to their baseball playing warm-ups, quite fond of regimes. Besides, smart trainers (and CD's trainer would seem to qualify) often resort to unorthodox measures, a la Michael Dickenson, who got Da Hoss ready to repeat in the Breeder's Cup off a single prep race, following a year layoff. So why can't we assume that THIS trainer knows his horse better than we do and, certainly, Dutrow does and he's working his horse in a way designed to bolster his stamina late? The notion that the consistently slow workout times signals he's a hurt animal doesn't seem credible to me, for if you link the two, it would seem to suggest that he's so positively injured that he can barely gallop without wincing in pain and that his connections are willing to run him anyway. That simply doesn't pass the smell test. After all, he cost nearly $1 million at auction and while he won't be syndicated for $50 million, he's doubtlessly worth far more now, so to suggest that his fantastically pedestrian workouts means he's "hurting" and will race anyway doesn't sound too likely to me. Meanwhile, all the talk about Dutrow and IEAH being "cocky" or "crass" or somehow undeserving are ancilliary issues that ought to mean squat to anyone heading to the windows to bet the race, if only because horses don't do character assessments, running better for "good" people and poorly for "unlikeable" people. Getting down to brass tacks, I like the idea that CD is sitting in the five hole, outside of BB on the rail. The Belmont is usually won by a horses who are among the firt phalanx of competitors, rather than closers, so tactical speed is crucial, which would seem to be a recipe for BB trouncing his opponents. And yet, it seems to me that CD also has a very high cruising speed -- and it's my guess is that Prado won't let BB get more than two lengths in front of him throughout the first mile. If BB opens up heading for the finish line leaving everyone in his dust, I won't be stunned, but it says here that he'll be getting the staggers at the eighth pole, with CD breathing down his throat latch and edging clear late. We'll see, won't we?

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Jeff M — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:27:26 GMT

Uhhm: I totally agree with you on that. It's going to be tasteless enough for the Hooters logo to be on BB's jockey but then for Hooters girls to be included in the winners circle if he wins??? Ah, finally after a 30 year Triple Crown drought, we all witness the sport of kings reveling in the rarest of achievements and all the glory that goes with it.... wait a minute, who are these strippers????

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Karen — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:24:29 GMT

Good points Filly.

BB will be running for Eight Belles as well as for this industry on Saturday. I pray for a safe return of all the horses running. I sure hope BB's quarter crack will be a non issue and will not get worse after Saturday. He will definately deserve some much earned time off.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

draynay — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:11:46 GMT

I am an old track guy and my track coach even back in my day said, "you can't run faster unless you train faster" There are things called fast twitch muscles and horses of graded stakes caliber are 90% fast twitch fibers and cells. If you are not working out fast you are not working out these fibers and producing more fast cells. That is why you will see very few horses from Japan winning any Graded Stakes Races. To run fast you must train fast. Look up fast twitch muscles and do a little reading its interesting stuff.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Filly — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:45:48 GMT

I apologize if I am being repetitious, but I have never been high on Casino Drive, or the Mineshafts as a whole. To this date, Mineshaft has been a disappointment in the breeding shed. Cool Coal Man did win a graded stake, but he was very lucky that day in that the rest of the field was not very talented. I believe that he will never win another graded stakes unless the field comes up incredibly weak again. While Casino Drive does have a bit more talent that Cool Coal Man, the talent that he does possess is a far cry from even a horse like Denis of Cork, much less a horse like Big Brown despite that blue-blooded breeding. In the Peter Pan Stakes, he was merely beating up against a field of weak horses, and he didn't even look that good doing it. However, even though Big Brown is a far superior animal, he is not unbeatable in this particular race. The connections have been downplaying the quarter crack, and with the severity of it, there is a good chance that it could affect his performance in the race. There is also a very good chance that he may never run again after this race because of the quarter crack. The only thing that can beat Big Brown is that quarter crack combined with a similar performance from Denis of Cork's Kentucky Derby. Denis of Cork will be a lot closer this time. If he makes that same kind of move, I believe we will have a horse race on our hands. I'll be rooting for Big Brown, but my money will be on Denis of Cork. As for Casino Drive's dam, I would send her back to AP Indy.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Karen — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:31:56 GMT

Flyinhome: how can you dismiss times? That makes no sense to me. Times are extremely important when training a horse and when racing a horse. I'm not saying CD should have posted faster workouts because I don't understand the Japanese training philosophy and perhaps he went exactly how they wanted him to but Jason does have a point. Prior to the Peter Pan he was being trained differently. Did you watch "and theyre off" on the website? I loved the way CD was walking. He really does powerwalk. Very unique way of training and maybe it will pay off huge. Perhaps they are training this way due to the distance. Who knows. Whatever the reason, their not talking. CD is well rested compared to BB and only time will tell if it will be enough to take down BB. He will definately have to be in top form to do it. Be watching for some unfortunate race tactics on Saturday. I would like to believe it won't happen but I know better. BB and Kent will have a target on his back.

Wista, I agree with you. We are at a crossroads and lets hope we don't continue as is. We need big changes in this industry.

Hooters???? Can you be serious??? What a joke. I don't mind Dutrow and his mouth has not bothered me but Hooters??? This bothers me.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

FrankK — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:39:07 GMT

Let's wait to see if BB can beat older horses(if he shows up). I'm not sure the ones he has beat could beat older horses at Charles Town.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

UCLinden — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:36:34 GMT

Oglala Sue, I also saw the video of Casino Drive in Japan. If you noticed, he was under a handride until the stretch, and I also thought it was impressive. Also watched a repeat of the Peter Pan, in which Casino Drive won, but more impressive was the close of Ready's Echo ( post 9 Belmont ). Neither horse has been in the Triple Crown and both are rested.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Flyinhome — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:22:27 GMT

J Shandler: i would have to disagree with you when it comes to times. Japanese horses are trained differently. Times (workouts) are pretty much dirt compared to money. They mean nothing. i really don't think he's tired, he just settles. BB does that and i don't see people dissing him. When CD's jockey asks, he gives. CD is being kept on his toes in a box. I have a feeling he's going to come outta the box come saturday. Fusaichi Pegasus (sp) anyone? he was a Japanese horse.....and won the KD.

Norma Jean: thanks for posting that! i didn't see that headline.

Also, i was one of Dutrow's biggest fans for years. Benny the bull, Diamond stripes, and Saint Liam are some of my favorite horses. i think it's so sad the way he is acting. he lost his sportmaship "honest" attitude. if he was honest, anything could happen in the race. And according to dutrow, the race has already happened, and BB is a TC winner.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

SGUNNE — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:13:20 GMT

1-Casino Drive

2-Big Brown

3-Denis of Cork

4-Tale of Ekati

I already didn't like Big Brown because of Dutrow and IEAH, but adding Hooters as the main sponsor makes it impossible for me to support him. I have been a horse racing fan and owner for years, but that may all soon come to an end.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Uhhhm — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:47:29 GMT

You know I love Big Brown and I was totally rooting for him until I read the article a few minutes ago about Hooters now being his official sponsor and that Hooters girls would join him in the winners circle if he won... give me a break. I still like the horse but I really do not want to see that. Talk about lowbrow commercialism.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

wista — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:26:18 GMT

If Big Brown wins the Triple Crown it will be a defining moment in the history of horse racing in the U.S. We will have a undefeated , triple crown winner trained by a man with 17 separate drug-related violations since 1999. The sport will be at a crossroads; continue with the way things are done now OR attempt to correct those things that are demeaning the sport and denigrating to the Throughbred. Consumer confidence in horse racing is on a big decline .

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Jugaku10 — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:12:16 GMT

Hi, I'm Japanese and I knew Fujisawa's way, who is one of the top trainer in JP. Basically he never asks his horses to prepare so fast before the race, indeed he had said it was regret that CD couldn't finish final preparation on 04/Jun. I appreciate all fans in US are so excited and discussed about CD came from JP. He was born in US, CD will be able to make both US & JP happy when he wins.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Jeff M — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:09:16 GMT

jshandler... thanks for the reply. I can't wait for the race.... personally, I think it's the most exciting lead into a horserace in a long time. There seems to be more drama surrounding this Triple Crown bid than any of the others over the past decade. I just wish BB was in the hands of different connections (trainer and owner)... then I would be rooting for him.

re: Casino Drive? No Thanks

Jason Shandler — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:19:43 GMT

Jeff M: I am not suggesting anything is wrong with CD from an injury standpoint. I just think he is tired. Look at May 7 work and now look at his work today. He went :59.94 in five furlongs three days before the Peter Pan and now went :57 in FOUR furlongs three days before the Belmont. That is a big change in strategy.