Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Eliza — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:43:27 GMT

I picked Da'Tara to win. :D Call me crazy, but I just liked him, ever since that 4th on Preakness Day. I picked him to win then, too.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

toxicologist — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:31:34 GMT

Now Asmussen has been slapped with ANOTHER positive! Just another example of how trainers will CONTINUE to use drugs no matter how many positives they come up with. What are we waiting for, another equine disaster on national TV before we clean it up? It is totally out of hand and destroying the perception of the industry. WISE UP!

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

toxicologist — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:42:24 GMT

Why should ANY drugs be allowed to give an athlete or horse a "competitive" edge or help? This is a betting sport and any drug used to give a horse a "competitive edge" should be equal to fixing the outcome of a race; which is a felony and a trainer deliberately giving "competitve edge" drugs should be held accountable and prosecuted as such. Dutrow just got slapped with another positive AGAIN today! He is just another example of how trainers will use and do anything to get the money at the expense of the horse! Has any trainer ever learned anything from their suspensions? No, they just get more creative with their mixtures and do it again hoping to beat the system!!! All the while, the horse is the victim! If we had a 3 strikes you're out rule you might get their attention because the current rulings are just slaps on the wrist. These horses are not asking for drugs, it is the trainer's decision to give the drugs. It has got to stop! It is time to ban ALL drugs if you want to clean up the sport as some drugs (like Lasix) can mask the use of other drugs; giving you another "competitive edge". The way the system is now, it encourages ALL trainers to use "something" to "help" their horse because EVERYBODY else is using something. To make it a level playing field: NO DRUGS, NO EXCEPTIONS. It takes any and all of the guess work out of trying to determine what should be "racing levels" and what can/can't be used at this track and that track. Make all the tracks adhere to the same policy. It is a CLEAN and SIMPLE solution and most of all it is in the BEST interest of the HORSE which afterall is what this industry is supposed to be about.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Householder — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:53:23 GMT

The Breeder's Cup Classic in October should be interesting for Big Brown. If Dutrow was smart he would ship him to the Oak Tree meet and get a few graded stakes at Santa Anita into him before the big dance.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

draynot — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:05:23 GMT

Karen,

A 19.08 final 3/16ths is nothing special. In fact Curlin, Bernadini, Afleet Alex, Smarty Jones, Point Given, Red Bullet, Real Quiet, Louis Quatorze, Timber Country, and Pine Bluff to name most of the recent Preakness winners all ran faster than that in their final 3/16ths. Certainly Bernadini, Afleet Alex, Smarty Jones,Red Bullet, and Louis Quatorze who won by large margins were throttled down just like the Big Ole Browneye was in the stretch.

To make a point: I have not said that Brownie has not accomplished anything in his short little life. What I do maintain is that he didn't accomplish his victories against quality competition. It's easy to beat up on nothings. Some of those nothings have won big races but in each case one of them had to win. The competition so far has been very limited. His weak rivals have aided in his ability to stretch his pedigree.

I have however enjoyed watching his races, even though I would have enjoyed them if he wasn't running. Makes no difference to me. Someone else would have had to win and then we would be anylizing how weak their competition was.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Karen — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:26:57 GMT

Draynot: I misspoke. I meant BB's final three sixteenth was run in 19:08 which I believe was stated by Steve Haskin that ranks amoung the fastest closing fractions in Preakness history. In a strong head wind and under a hand ride and being eased at the wire. Sorry, it wasn't Draynay who made that up. Plus you keep conviently over looking BB's Derby run. Not sure why you are so sure BB didn't accomplish anything in his short little life, but the proof is in the numbers. I never said BB is one of the greats, but he isn't a turtle either. He has been exciting to watch and he is a very talented race horse. His mistakes have come by the way of his people.

FYI: I don't bet. I certainly am not making 70K by betting on horses, thank the good lord. Can you imagine what happens on the days you don't make that much?? The wiz may brag about a good bet placed here and there but lets face the facts..... someone making that kindof money is spending huge amounts of money and frankly, in my humble opinion, is losing quite a lot. Perhaps a slight gambling problem but that is just a speculation. My kids need to eat.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

draynot — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:21:20 GMT

Karen, Karen, Karen,

You must have borrowed Draynay's calculator. BB's Preakness Last Quarter in 19:08? You been reading too much of his drivel and he has you brainwashed.

The Big Ole Browneye's splits were 1:10.6 (3/4's), 1:35.6 (mile), and 1:54.8 (1 3/16 mile).

Let's see here, 1:54.8 minus 1:35.6 = 19.2 and that's for the last 3/16ths!! Last time I checked 3/16ths wasn't a quarter mile. 19.2 divided by 3 = 6.4. Then 6.4 times 4 = 25.6 final quarter. That's mediocre. He wasn't under wraps for the entire last quarter, maybe the last 1/16th and you don't throttle down a powerfull animal too quickly anyway. That's the way to injure them in a hurry.

His 1/4 split between the 3/4 and mile when he was running was 25.0

1:35.6 minus 1:10.6 = 25.0. Not exactally spectacular either. His non-competition made his race look much better than it really was.

This is a good example of how handicappers like "the wiz" make a killing. The common folks either do their calculations wrong or rely on others opinions or mistakes to make their decision.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Karen — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:37:49 GMT

Wow, the wiz: you must have a crystal ball. I bet you don't have a day job.

Draynot: I believe BB finished his last quarter in the Preakness in 19:08 under a hand ride and with gas left in the tank. Please keep in mind according to Ragozin and Thoro-graph, he posted the fastest time ever. Why must I keep defending BB? Because people seem to be blind to his accomplishements.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

the wiz — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:29:36 GMT

Belmont Thoughts (Big Brown's Flop):

Big Brown has proven more than a useful tool for me. Between the Derby and Preakness his victory's helped net me over 70K. By betting against him in the Belmont I added another 50K from the superfectas by keying Anak Nakal and Ready's Echo in the 2-4 slots. Big Brown became another Giacomo for me as I made a small fortune betting against him over time after his Derby win was hand delivered by way of a sizzling pace duel.

That's what I love about horseracing, if you know what you are doing (and with a little luck sometimes) you can out wit the minions and make some great "chump change".

To me it's a business. Kinda like the stock market, let everyone else worry about how they run their part and cash in on the results. If you don't get emotionally attached you don't make dumb mistakes and don't set yourself up for a big letdown. Never always right but the good far outweighs the bad.

Change the rules, change the game, good handicappers will adjust. Afterall, they are the ones that keep this sport alive. Without them and the money they pour into tracks across the world horseracing as we know it would die. Money talks.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

wyomingwind — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:31:08 GMT

Think it is great about the J.Club Safety committee to have put out recommendations. Hope they will be followed. Also added to the list of recommendations should be a couple for breeders: look for horses which race for at least 4 years, and retire sound. Should also be a rule about full disclosure regarding all breeding stallions and mares as to any corrective surgery done on legs as weanling/yearling (non INJURY ).

Leave it up to the breeders/owners to pay attention to such, and breed accordingly. Though some foal deformities may be just from such long legs being wrapped in a ball for so long, so may some be inherited, and/or may affect future soundness and performance. Certainly many leg defects run in certain bloodlines..... Seems like we are seeing some very light boned horses nowadays.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Monica V — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:16:04 GMT

Just saw what the Jockey Club safety committee is recommending for horse racing and I think it's about time. Good for them! The only problem is how to police it and how do you stop cheaters? It certainly is a move in the right direction for the horses safety and health.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

draynot — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:59:29 GMT

Draynay, upon further review:

Barcola who Curlin whipped in the Foster ran his last quarter in 24.7 and Einstein who you refer to as only a turf horse ran his final quarter in 24.0. In comparison the Big Ole Browneye has NEVER finished the last quarter in a race at 1 1/8 or longer in less than 25.2!! Keep lying to yourself if it makes you feel better. The fact is Big Browneye hasn't proven he can finish anywhere near that fast.

I repeat once again, in races written for 3 yr olds only SOMEONE has to win. Just because it is a graded stakes doesn't automatically mean the cometition is of good graded quality. Up to this point this is a horribly weak group of 3 yr olds. Maybe with age some of them will improve and actually be competitive against some of the lesser graded older horses. As it stands today none of them including the Big Ole Browneye has proven they are capable of winning against quality older horses.

Duck Duck Dutrow as I saw him so eloquently referred to previously will continue to avoid Curlin like the plague unless or until Brownie does some serious improving.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Karen — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:02:11 GMT

You said a mouth full Ranagulzion! Great post.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Marc W — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:47:56 GMT

WHILE LOOKING AT THE BELMONT RACE DAY FORM-it was there in black and white------------

ONE LAST POST

All of you that jumped on the Haskin, Billy Turner articles/posts about training for the Belmont.

Zito trained DaTara one slow 49 3/5 4F work between the Barbaro-Preakness Day Undercard (1 1/16 mile race-he also started in the Derby Trial) and the Belmont- AND HE WON!!!!!!!!

Big difference between stated brilliant after race theories and facts.

I guess Zito-according to those "who know" "was wrong as well" HA! HA! and his horse should have trained more and harder for the Belmont?????

WITH THE FACTS IN FRONT OF THEM---Surprising how arm chair trainers know so much without ever even hot-walked a horse, let alone trained, to tell a 30% winning trainer how to do it.

PS -Although I respect what Billy Turner did-he is about a 7% trainer in the modern era and really hasn't had a stakes quality horse since Czaravich---a long long time ago. It is 2008!

Write to Nick Zito and tell him how to train a classic horse as well as Dutrow. They were of like-mind for conditioning to the Belmont! One was right and one was wrong according to armchair experts???

JUST THE FACTS-TO QUOTE JOE FRIDAY

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Monica V — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:12:30 GMT

Had BB finished at least 3rd in the Belmont he would have been retired immediatately. Now I think they will have to race him to redeem himself. Looks like there will only be two more races if that's the case.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

draynay — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:15:43 GMT

Wanda.. Curlin is a very nice horse that is running against a bunch on has beens and never beens... Grasshopper? Who has Einstein beat on dirt ? Brass Hat? When did he win last? None of those horses broke 100 Beyer... and people tell me all the time..."Big Brown hasn't run against older horses!" Lol...what for ? You want to see Big Brown run Brass Hat into the ground? Lol... looks like we are going to have Big Brown beating up the 3 year olds and Curlin beating up a bunch of weak older horses and it seems the two will never meet to find out who is better... who loses the racing public and racing.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

draynot — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:00:43 GMT

Earth to Draynay, Earth to Draynay,

You need a new calculator. Curlins last quarter in 26? Try again and this time figure it right. Curlins last quarter in 23.9 is more like it. Your George Bush logic (tell the lie enough and people are naive enough to believe you) won't work on me.

Contrast to the Big Ole Browneyes last quarter in 25.3 (Fla. Derby) and 25.2 (KY Derby) both races in which he was kept to the task. Looks like the Browneye would need to improve quite a bit to match Curlin. The good news is he's lightly raced enough that he might, the bad news is he'll probably be kept ducking Curlin.

Congrats to Smooth Air and Da Tara, Florida Derby also rans who have gone on to win some big races. Someone had to win those races as well. Still doesn't make this class of 3 yr olds any better since they only beat up on their inferior classmates. Good to see though that they have improved a great deal from the pathetic group Big Brown faced in the Fla. Derby.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

draynay — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:27:14 GMT

Wow... John Clay really went out on a limb and trashed the Kentucky Derby winner in the process. "Big Brown is no Curlin." Curlin wins a race against a bunch of washed up has beens and never beens and suddenly Curlin is the end all be all and Big Brown is nothing. Forget the Florida Derby, The amazing Kentucky Derby and Preakness just kick him when he is down because its the easy thing to do. Somebody please take John Clay's pen from him. Big Brown ran perhaps the best Kentucky Derby in History and won the Preakness with ease and now he cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Curlin because he beat a bunch on has beens and came home the last quarter in over 26 seconds and that is suppose to scare Big Brown and the connections. Do you really think Curlin can catch Big Brown coming home like that? Good luck. Trash the horse now... we will see what you have to say about a rested Big Brown in 2 months. What great writing do you have for us next John Clay? Let me guess... "Big Brown only beats 3 year olds."

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Dawne — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:35:52 GMT

Karen

You are welcome. You are certainly allowed your feelings, good and bad.

I'm trying to understand this "wiz" and why his is the only opinion.

I have asked him questions to which he gives no answers, only the same old reterick about Curlin and Big Brown.

I'm not interested in talking to him anymore. There is nothing to be learned from him.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Dawne — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:27:22 GMT

Draynay,

You are too funny! I could have clocked the race with a sundial? I like it.

And yeah, the crop of 3 yr olds and (those still racing) 4 yr olds? I agree. Pathetic.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Dawne — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:20:50 GMT

Well Wiz,

Charming response, more of the same dancing around the question. Obviously you don't know anything. No facts, no data.

I own horses, always have. I have spent many, many years in the racing business. If someone asked me a direct question, I would either answer it or admit that I did not know the answer. I would then, go and find all the information I could on the subject.

As far as Karen goes, leave her alone. What are you. A bully?

I say once again. Big Brown had ONE bad race. You are not a vet or a rider or anything that I can see. You have NO idea what happened on that racetrack. Big Brown was pushed inside by ToE after he was already out of control. That could have been a disatrous situation. Do you just watch the start and the finish of a race and listen to the race caller? Or do you actually watch the whole race, pole by pole.

On Curlin, I have said in an earlier post that hands down he would beat Big Brown. Notwithstanding his superior races, he also has a full year on Big Brown. I'm not sure if you know this, but that (and possibly a coctail or two) does make a difference. Lest we forget, Rags to Riches beat Curlin in the Belmont in a full on drive. Why? Was he on a bounce? No, I don't think so for a minute. Does this dimish his greatness? Absolutly not. And just in case YOU do not understand, I am not comparing the two horses (BB and Curlin). I am just pointing out that there are no foregone conclusions.

And taking anything as a dig from you? I would first have to respect you to be bothered by anything you had to say.

And before you respond to me, try and bring some information to the table. If I am wrong, and I have been many times, I am always happy to learn something new.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Monica V — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:31:22 GMT

Quite frankly, I don't know why they ran any races after the Florida Derby. It was the race of the year, wasn't it? I don't know why they went through all the trouble and expense of having the triple crown races. I mean, after the Florida Derby Big Brown was annointed the 12th Triple Crown winner by certain people. He's been talked about as being better than Secretariat because Secretariat only had 4 or 5 tired horses in his field. He didn't beat anything, even if though no other horse has accomplished that.

Big Brown is the greatest horse ever born. Right, Draynay?

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Monica V — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:26:43 GMT

Draynay,

All the rest of the horses were behind him by 4 1/2 lengths. It was a slow pace, and he did leave the field behind. It doesn't matter though because I've never heard you say anything positive about a horse other than Big Brown. I'm not going to argue with you about it, it's a waste of time because you think you know everything.

Actually, I think they had better race BB again because of what happened in the Belmont. At that point, he can redeem himself and you can sit and tell everyone one is the best horse in 30 years again. That should make you really happy but what will you talk about when they retire him?

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Ranagulzion — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:03:23 GMT

A win in the Belmont would have virtually nailed down the Horse-of-the-year title for Big Brown, given the thirty years drought. After last Saturday's Stephen Foster the scales have tipped in Curlin's favour. And yes indeed Curlin looked awesome, considering the history of post-Dubai performances of horses that contested the Dubai World Cup. It is a great tribute to Steve Asmussen as a trainer. Racing fans should be very thankful to Curlin's owners for their sportsmanship in racing this wonderful horse beyond his three year old campaign. Their broad-mindedness in considering the Prix del Arc de Triomphe at Longchamp in France as a probable target for Curlin's fall campaign is amazing. Right now he must be the leading candidate for Horse-of-the-year but there is plenty of time for Big Brown's redemption and we await his spectacular return because one dull performance (albeit in his most defining race)does not diminish his ability. The best of Big Brown has not yet been seen and the possible clash of champions in the fall with the mighty Curlin for the Horse-of-the-Year title whether on grass or dirt anywhere on the planet could assuage the pain of Barbaro, Eight Belles and the Triple Crown disappointment and close the thoroughbred year on a very high note. With Curlin having the upperhand right now in the public view it is up to Big Brown's connections to strategise for the match-up in order to reclaim much lost prestige. May sportsmanship prevail this year in thoroughbred racing.

re: Belmont Thoughts - One Day After

Wanda — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:39:43 GMT

Draynay who cares if the pace was slow? He looks even better if he can sit behind a slow pace and move like he did.How dare you dis a multi graded stakes horse like Brass Hat.His connections have to much class to respond so I will defend him.When you are personally in a position to own or train a nice horse then maybe you will understand that you don't knock the other guys horse. Oh yea I forgot,your a Dutrow fan.What's wrong with running a turf horse on dirt? I can see you dissing him if he ran up the track but he's a Grade 1 stakes winner for gods sake.How nice for her that she tried him on the dirt and picked up a nice check in the process.If you read her quote she said he needed a start and she didn't want to sit on him for over a month. I personally think he ran great and I hope she trys him on the dirt again.