Where Does Curlin Rank?

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

chris ryder — Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:50:04 GMT

ever heard of a mare called Snowline $14,000,000.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

jkmooreelle — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:27:02 GMT

Im glad im not the only one that thinks Spectacular Bid is the greatest race horse in the last 30 years. There really is no argument. He set a track record as a 2 year old in a route race(very rare) Raced coast to coast on different surfaces.Set numerous track records. With a smarter ride, certainly wins the triple crown even with the puncture wound (pin). Then closes out his career with a walkover in the prestigous Woodward Stakes.My theory is that he had to duplicate what Slew and Affirmed did by winning the triple crown. When that didn't happen the media and the casual race fan discounted him. His legacy is secured when he carved out the most dominant race season (1980) ever.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

dr fager01 — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:49:56 GMT

The breeding shed has nothing to do with this, so sunday silence with 14 starts and curlin with 16 starts are not great horses, cigar was overated, and din't beat anybody, had there been another talented grade 1 winner during his streak he would'nt be so talked about today. comparing spectacular bid to these horses only makes spectacular bid look more like a giant he was the 5th best horse in the 70s because affirmed was better. in the time period above mentioned, only a handful of horses could compete with spectacular bid

1] holy bull

2] ghostzapper

3] john henry

4] skip away

5] cigar

but to put point given, silver charm, easy goer who wasn't even the best of his crop, granted they didnt race at 4 either sunday silence and easy goer are a notch or two over the point given's smarty jones, silver charm, charismatic of the world. non of the horses had more than 20 starts so it is impossible to know how they would have feared later on, smarty jones 8 starts. what a joke.but do recognize alysheba even with his winded record was a notch or two above those mentioned outside of the top 5 listed.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

isitingood — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 23:55:40 GMT

well if the anwser is based on the "ontrack" only performances of these horses, then you could switch all of them back and forth from 1-10 and be right.however,if success in the breeding shed is a part of the criteria? Sunday Silence is hands down #1

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

drfager01 — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:40:03 GMT

ITS SIMPLE FOLKS. THERE IS A GREATNESS LIST the last 30 yrs. #1 SPECTACULAR BID #2 HOLY BULL #3 CIGAR. SKIP AWAY ALYSHEBA JOHN HENRY EASYGOER SUNDAY SILENCE GHOST ZAPPER......all these other names are irrelivant. cigar for his 16 in a row and who i deem to be very overrated, holy bull because he was simply the best,whats this new thing now that to be great you have to win overseas,this must be some kind of european conspiracy.best racing in the good old usa baby.names like curlin,silver charm,point given,invasor, are a joke and were less than stellar performers.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Householder — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:30:31 GMT

I highly recommend a You Tube viewing of the 1988 San Bernadino Handicap...a Classic Alysheba/Ferdinand duel. There would be no Alysheba without Ferdinand. Although Alysheba's clipping of Bet Twice's heels in the Kentucky Derby (only to come on and pass Bet Twice) still sticks out in my mind as one of the all time grinding out...stick with it wins. Alysheba also had a little speed if needed (109and 1/5...134and3/5th going a mile and a quarter). If he had been able to run on Lasix in the Belmont he may have been the 12th Tripple Crown Winner. He was a terrible bleeder.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Bellwether — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:36:30 GMT

INVASOR should be on this list anyway you cut it...Long Live The King & Dirt!!!

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Householder — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 02:09:27 GMT

Lady Secret...with her ability to tackle the classic distances it was not hard to tell who her daddy was. I also think Lukas did a pretty good job with another gray 2 years later with Winning Colors kicking dirt at the boys in the Santa Anita Derby dusting them by 8 just 4/5ths on the stakes record. Yes...there would be no Sunday Silence without Easy Goer. I also You Tubed Prized and had not realized that Sunday Silence was 1/5 when he lost the SWAPS to Prized but was redeemed a bit when Prized took the Breeder's Cup Turf later that year at age 3 (over El Senoir). Eddie D...they don't make them like that anymore.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

FIGHT FAN — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:03:28 GMT

IN REALITY, SECRETARIAT WHO IN MY OPINION WAS EASILY THE BEST OF THEM WAS THE HORSE MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR TODAY'S PRACTICE OF RETIRING HORSES AFTER THEIR THREE YEAR OLD SEASON.IN EFFECT HE WAS ACTUALLY THE BEGINING OF THE DEMISE OF HORSE RACING.OTHER GREAT HORSES BEFORE HIM SUCH AS ,DR.FAGER AND BUCKPASSER,WHO RAN AS FOUR YEAR OLDS AND WHO WERE NOT GELDINGS MADE RACING ENJOYABLE.NOW THEY GET RETIRED AFTER SEVEN RACES,RIDICULOUS... YES YOUR RIGHT IN THE FACT THAT YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE YOUR FAVORITES AS I STATED IN MY POST WHO THE BEST HORSES WERE IS PURELY SUBJECTIVE. AS FOR ME " CURLIN" IS RIGHT THERE WITH THEM ESPECIALLY IF IT TURNS OUT THAT HE CAN RUN ON TURF WHICH THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE HE CAN'T GIVEN THAT HE IS A HALF BROTHER TO ENGLISH CHANNEL.HAVE A GOOD DAY..

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

lance guranovich — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:53:41 GMT

mr. fight fan,

i will match my knowledge of thoroughbreds in any manner related to them against yours any day of the week.

i don't have to look kelso up, because i was aware of his accomplishments when he was running

and i always had high respect for him, but i believe that i have the right to select my favorites based on the criteria i use to judge great race horses. don't you?

besides, we are talking about curlin and even though i believe that curlin is an excellent race horse, he has yet to prove that he is in the select category of "great" race horses.

there is a small, but vocal group of secretariat bashers out there who come up with a multitude of reasons why he can't be considered the greatest race horse of all time. they say that the track here and the track there was hand tailored to secretariat's impending appearance and that it was dry in new york during the year he established track records and as a result, the track was super fast.

there is a track record for each distance at each race track. if speed wasn't at the core of performance for thoroughbreds, you could then run shetland ponies against thoroughbreds, correct?

as i had stated in an earlier posting, more than 30 crops of three year olds had a chance to break secretariat's record and were not successful. i don't know how many horses ran in the subsequent derbies, but i believe that it would be safe to say that more than 500 did. alysheba, black tie affair, concern, awsome again, tiznow and invasor all had their chances and failed.

i am talking about just one track and one surface. what more needs to be said.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

FIGHT FAN — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:47:21 GMT

LANCE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HORSES IS LIMITED TO THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW THE BEST OF THEM WAS BIG RED...AS FOR CURLIN I REALLY DON'T THINK YOUR PICKS MATCH HIM IN SPEED ,POWER ,ENDURANCE AND DISTANCE..... ALSO THEY MAY BE YOUR FAVORITES ( FOREGO AND JOHN HENRY )BUT THERE WAS A HORSE ONCE UPON A TIME WHO RACED ON DIRT AND TURF CALLED KELSO... LOOK HIM UP THEN TELL ME ABOUT THOSE OTHER TWO HORSES.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

lance guranovich — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 05:12:16 GMT

excluding the time element, my favorites are secretariat, forego and john henry.

one thing that stands out in my mindin regard to secretariat is the fact that his track record for a mile and a quarter still stands after 30 plus derbies and more importantly, six breeders' cup classics. the best of the best have not been able to break it.

forego, a horse of another color,was outstanding in his own right, with raw speed to match his gigantic heart and the will to run on bad ankles.

how can anyone deny john henry his rightful spot? who knows how much more he could have accomplished if his talent on the turf was discovered earlier. at any rate, his quality of performance carried far, far beyond the norm for his level of competition.

i never saw secretariat race, but i saw him at claiborne and i will never forget those ten or fifteen minutes i spent right next to him.

as for forego, i saw him win the widener at hialeah in 1974 and i saw john henry win two arlington millions and place in another.

i think anyone would be hard pressed to come up with a trio like them, because there is no comparison out there , especially in the more recent crops of thoroughbreds.

big brown and curlin! give me a break.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

zatman — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:36:13 GMT

Big Brown was tired --- he had a lack of stamina --- and his jockey gave him a terirble ride.

Case closed.

Big Brown is a good horse -- but to be a great horse you need to beat other great horses.

Curlin has nothing left to prove my friends. Big Brown still does. Curlin won against a much tougher field of three years olds and then faced older horses and did quite well.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

DANYLSON — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 23:54:52 GMT

HOUSEHOLDER,I AGREE WITH YOU THAT BEST PAL WAS A GOOD HORSE AND THE CAP WINS WERE INCREDIBLE.HIS WIN IN THE PACIFIC CLASSIC WAS GREAT AND THE FIELD THAT YEAR WAS LOADED WITH THE AMERICAN CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES RACE HORSE,WE NEED A SERIES LIKE THAT TO PROMOTE THE SPORT AND TO KEEP THE OLDER HORSE ACTIVE AND EXCITED.I ALSO SAW LADY SECRET LIVE,SHE WOULD BEAT UP ON TURKOMAN AND PRECISIONIST AT BELMONT ALL THE TIME,SHE WAS A GREAT FILLY.THE LIST IS GREAT AND MANY DESERVE TO BE ADDED.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Householder — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:09:52 GMT

DANYLSON. Sure Easy Goer was a great horse and probably would have won the Triple Crown if it was run at Saratoga, Aqueduct, and Belmont in that order. I won't take anything away from the 2 year old champion (and the first second coming of Secretariat) other than the fact that he ran into a horse that couldn't sell for $20,000 at a yearling auction and was 1 for 5 outside of the state of NY. It is unfortunate that Easy Goer was hurt at 4 as it makes comparisons to older horses like Best Pal difficult. Winning the Santa Anita Debry, second in the KY Derby, and winning the Pacific Classic all in the same year (as a 3 year old) and then placing in the SA Big Cap at 7 is pretty impressive. Not to mention earning close to 6 million. I also think 1986's Lady Secret (Eclipse Award Winning Horse of the Year) merits a mention since she beat up the boys in such races as the Whitney (a race also won by the likes of Easy Goer).

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Monica V — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:17:13 GMT

Hey Jason,

I hope you create another blog that will be as interesting as these have been. I have never had such a good time posting and enjoying all the other posts as well. Draynay is nothing if not consistent. You can count on him to bash Curlin and make excuses for Big Brown, the greatest horse born in 30 years.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Monica V — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:07:52 GMT

Draynot,

You really get me to laughing. Thank you for the post, it really made my day! You have a great sense of humor!

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Monica V — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:02:41 GMT

I don't think Curlin's connections are worried about facing Big Brown. They have much more in mind for Curlin. I do hope that when he returns from France, they go to the BC Classic and finish up his year there. Who knows what will happen in France? He doesn't seem to mind grass and we will find out in a couple of weeks how well he does on the turf here. He has a huge challenge over there learning to run the opposite direction and on a hilly course. To me that's a much bigger challenge than running against Big Brown on Dirt. No other American Horse has ever won the ARC. If he does it will be one heck of an accomplishment. That is like the biggest race in Europe. I think it's very exciting but then again we are getting ahead of ourselves. First we must see how he does in his first turf race.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

draynot — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:19:43 GMT

Draynay I want to see Curlin run in the ARC no matter where he places if for no other reason than it bothers you so much.

Then again if Big Brown's connections would quit ducking THE CHAMP maybe it would finally shut you up when Curlin whips him.

Of course you would find some excuse to blame the loss but that seems to be your nature. LOL let's run the Big Ole Browneye in the Haskell where there will be no Curlin or anything approaching him to worry about. I suppose after getting his rearend handed to him in the Belmont he needs an easy race to get some confidence back. Just to piss you off more I hope they enter the Maiden that ran in the Belmont in the Haskell too. Wouldn't that be sweet justice for him to whip Brownie again after what Brownie put him through last time?

Hey Duck Duck Dutrow, make sure to weld the shoes on this time so if Brownie freaks again that will be one less excuse we have to listen to 3-4 weeks later.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

draynot — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:16:23 GMT

Big Brown lost because of the starter on the track and because the maiden stepped on him? Let's examine what Draynay is alleging.

IF Big Brown spooked because of the starter on the track that shows a lack of professionalism. In other words that was his own fault. Their are starters on the track in almost precisely the same position throughout the country day after day. I've seen bottom level claimers and bottom level maiden claimers who don't spook from that. If that cost him the race he has nothing to blame but himself.

The maiden stepping on on Big Brown wasn't the maidens fault. Once again Big Brown caused that to happen because he broke out into the maiden. Put the blame if you must on the correct horse. Big Brown caused his own problem again.

The maiden was in this race because the lack of overall talent made it appealing. It was such a weak bunch of 3 yr olds running it was worth taking a shot. Too bad Big Brown caused him so much trouble, he may have picked up some nice change since he didn't have much to beat. All told he still beat Big Brown even though Big Brown took him out at the start. At least he didn't spit the bit like Brownie.

Haskell, Smaskell, If Big Brown runs their probably won't be much to gauge him against since he keeps ducking Curlin. He should win by daylight but that won't prove anything if he faces another weak field like he has his entire career.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

MonicaV — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:11:33 GMT

According to Draynay, the only horse belonging on the list is Big Brown. None of the rest of the horses are as good as he is. Well,

I think Big Brown has to show what he's made of in the Haskell. Let's see what he does. Sometimes horses peak at a certain point. Maybe he as already peaked and will decline or he will maintain his form and be unbeatable. It is not a foregone conclusion, is it?

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Bryan — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:54:13 GMT

Without Helen Pitts carefully bringing up Curlin--His career (like many of his other talented babies) would have only amounted to a maiden win at Keeneland in April going 4 1/2.

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

DANYLSON — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:22:08 GMT

CRAIG THAT LIST IS AWESOME. THE ONLY THING IS MANILA ISN'T ON IT. 18 STARTS 12 WINS AND 5 SECONDS. THE ONLY TIME HE DIDN'T PLACE WAS WHEN HE RAN ON THE DIRT.STEVE DAVIDOWITZ OF THE DAILY RACING FORM FROM HIS BOOK "THE BEST AND THE WORST OF THOROUGHBRED RACING" PLACES HIM #1 FOR THE BEST TURF HORSE IN AMERICA THIS PAST CENTURY...DO YOU KNOW WHO HE PLACED #2....JOHN HENRY.MANILA JUST AWESOME

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

Craig Duncan — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:22:30 GMT

I think the Top 10 is almost exactly on target. Here is a look Statistically of the Top 20 over the last 31 years:

Horse of the Ages - 1979-2010 Horse Earnings

Win% I-T-M% Gr1Wins StksWins

1.) Spectacular Bid $3,781,608.00 90% 100% 8 21

2.) Cigar $9,999,815.00 58% 85% 11 16

3.) John Henry $6,591,860.00 47% 76% 6 15 4.) Skip Away $9,616,360.00

47% 90% 11 15

5.) Sunday Silence $4,968,554.00 65% 100% 5 7 6.) Easy Goer $4,873,770.00 70% 100% 8 11 7.) Curlin $9,427,800.00

75% 100% 6 9

8.) Alysheba $6,679,242.00

43% 81% 6 7

9.) Silver Charm $6,944,369.00

50% 92% 4 9

10.) Point Given $4,068,500.00

70% 92% 6 8 11.) Personal Ensign$1,679,880.00 100% 100% 5 11

12.) Smarty Jones $7,613,155.00 89% 100% 3 6

13.) Invasor $7,804,070.00

91% 91% 6 10

14.) Holy Bull $2,481,760.00

81% 81% 7 10

15.) Real Quiet $3,271,802.00

35% 90% 5 6

16.) All Along $3,018,420.00

42% 71% 3 8

T17.) Go For Wand $1,373,338.00

77% 92% 5 7

T17.) Lady's Secret $3,021,325.00 55% 82% 6 11

18.) Miesque $2,096,517.00

75% 100% 4 10

19.) Lure $2,515,289.00

56% 88% 4 7

20.) Davonna Dale $641,612.00

62% 78% 7 9

re: Where Does Curlin Rank?

FIGHT FAN — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:43:09 GMT

COMPARING HORSES IS TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.FOR INSTANCE TAKE THE ALL TIME TOP 100 THOROUGHBREDS AS LISTED BY BLOOD-HORSE MAGAZINE.SPECTACULAR BID IS RANKED #10 WHILE AFFIRMED IS RANKED #12,YET SPECTACULAR BID COUDN'T BEAT AFFIRMED.

AS FOR CURLIN WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK OF A HORSE WHO AS A 3 YEAR OLD WAS STILL BEING SCHOOLED.AS LONG AS WERE DISCUSSING POSSIBILITIES SUPPOSE CURLIN STARTED HIS CAREER AS A 2 YEAR OLD AND BY THE TIME HE REACHED THE KENTUCKY DERBY HE WAS FULLY SCHOOLED.I THINK HE COULD HAVE BEEN A TRIPLE CROWN WINNER AS THERE WAS NO MAJOR FAULT WITHIN HIM.HE WAS FAST OVER ALL DISTANCES.DURABLE AND CONSISTANT.HIS LOSS IN THE DERBY WAS I BELIEVE DUE TO LACK OF EXPERIENCE.HIS LOSS IN THE BELMONT WAS TO AN EXCEPTIONAL FILLY IN A RACE THAT ON A FAST TRACK WENT TO THE 3/4 MILE IN 1:15:3 VIRTUALLY TURNING WHAT WAS SUPOSED TO BE AN ENDURANCE RACE INTO A SPRINT.IF YOU HAVE DOUBTS GO TO YOU-TUBE AND LOOK AT HIS LAST 3 RACES WHEN HE WAS SCHOOLED.ALSO I'VE HEARD ALL THE TALK TALK ABOUT BIG BROWN BEING A PUSH BUTTON HORSE MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT CURLIN AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ROBBY PUSHES THE BUTTON.

AS FOR BIG BROWN I REALLY BELIEVE HE IS AN EXCEPTIONAL HORSE AND HIS BELMONT RACE SHOULD BE A THROWAY AS IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT COULD GO WRONG FOR ANY HORSE IN A RACE WENT WRONG FOR HIM THAT RACE.....