Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

lance guranovich — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:56:34 GMT

katsan,

i am a little confused, because you mention an incident involving nakatani three years ago and then there is a comment : "from the ny times published: august 26, 1998."

the incident i am talking about took place approximately ten years ago and i really believe it involved nakatani.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

katsan — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:20:06 GMT

Lance,

I think this is what Atthebarn was talking about. I remember something about what you said but don't remember who it was.

"In a much cheaper race three years ago, a claiming race at Santa Anita, in fact, Nakatani rode a favorite who did not win, and he was seen hitting the horse on the neck well past the finish line. He said the horse was lugging out, and the trainer wanted to work the horse more after the race. The case became a cause celebre in Los Angeles. Nakatani was fined $500 and suspended for five days."

From the NY Times Published: August 26, 1998

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

GOCURLIN — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:00:33 GMT

I saw the race on CALRACING.COM/REPLAYS and I do agree Jeremy Rose needed to be suspended. But 6 months? That's insane. He did'nt intend to do it and he was just trying to get home first. 2 weeks-1 month sounds more reasonable than the rest of the Delaware Park meet.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Katsan — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:55:06 GMT

Karen2,

Well Jerry Bailey says a lot about everything. Every horse he ever rode, how he would ride every horse that ever ran. What every problem with every track, horse, trainer, jockey in America is. Take a poll in a jocks room on how popular he is/was, heck even read it in his own book. He started riding here where I live. He may be a great former jockey but he has way too many 'opinions'.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Karen2 — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:43:17 GMT

He got what he deserved and in my opinion is lucky he only got that. Jeremy should know better. I heard Jerry Baily say in an interview that he really doesn't think the whip is necessary at all. I suppose that is a matter of opinion, but under no circumstances should a horse be hit in the face. Shame on you Jeremy.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

katsan — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:31:21 GMT

DJohson.

If you will note the posts, that's what the big discussion is all about, most of the 'folk' didn't buy into it. A lot of them said they didn't think it was a federal crime and that with a lot of the stuff going on in horse racing right now it was reactionary. You have the few anywhere who are quick to judge on everything and take the most rigid point of view. But there were quite a few here who tried to convince the others to see the voice of reason, not 'all' swallowed the bait. PETA has been cussed and discussed on the blog about medication so your late post is no epiphany to most of the posters.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

DJohnson — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:57:36 GMT

Well, you all have swallowed the bait. Rose is not the maniacal monster he is being portrayed. The only thing intentially whipped here is the public frenzy--by radicals from PETA and the like. It was clearly an accident, and things like that happen in a rough sport like this. Please don't buy into the hype so easily, folks.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Racefan66 — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:50:47 GMT

Lance,

Perhaps I lack the literary skills of Atthebarn2 (he is a very good writer) but I think that your biggest issue with my post is that you're reading WAY too much into them. Nowhere did I say that I'm a fan of slaughter (reread the part about "cruel death in a Mexican slaughterhouse). I just said that banning it in the US doesn't mean that all horses have a good end to their life. I AM a fan of responsible horsemanship... just not the extreme version as pushed by PETA and folks whose only experience with horses is from reading "Black Beauty". From what you tell me, you know horses, so clearly I wasn't talking to you.

Nowhere did I say that you were wrong about how YOUR mares did anything. YOU said they were always very gentle mommies, I didn't disagree with you about them. Anyway, just because my experience differs or I disagree with you on something doesn't mean I'm questioning your background. And it would appear thar you ARE aware that horses communicate with kicks, so I can't figure why you are taking me to task so on this point.

Seriously, I'm here to talk, no to offend.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

lance guranovich — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 06:14:04 GMT

atthebarn,

i remember the incident with corey nakatini differently.

i remember it as i said and that nakatani hit the horse in the face or between it's ears as they were galloping out after the race. this caused the horse to shy and it stumbled, injuring itself.

i would really like to hear more on this, because i don't remember any outrage over the incident and in my recollection, i believe that it was certainly worthy of much more.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

lance guranovich — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 05:26:29 GMT

racefan66,

i don't want to belabor a point or points thereof, but i don't believe that i have an idealized version of anything in this life.

when i stated that i raised seven foals out of four mares who won about 25 races collectively and i state that i never saw any of these mares kick their foals to discipline them, you tell me that i have gentle mares.

i was kicked by one of these "gentle" mares and these "gentle" mares mixed it up frequently. that is what i experienced and that is what i know.

i see that you are a proponent of the slaughterhouse and that puts me at odds with anyone in your camp, because you see it as a means to an end and i see it from where it all starts. indiscriminate breeding of horses and dogs of every breed is rampant in this country and i am sure you know that.

in many, many instances, these animals are dicarded, because they do not meet requirements in some way. they end up on the scrap heap of humanity or in this case, the so called humane alternative called the slaughterhouse.

i know a woman who was very well educated and presumably intelligent. this woman absolutely loved her horses, but that didn't stop her from vanning her old arthritic horse to the slaughterhouse.

on another note, i happened to walk in on a scene where a month old quarterhorse foal was having an area of white hair excised. this person was very well educated and a devout churchgoer as well!

not only was this person exposing a foal to an anesthetic with a potential for complications, but this animal lover and devout churchgoer was committing an illegal act.

in my mind, it all goes back to greed and nothing, but greed.

when that problem can be solved, the plight of unwanted animals will be resolved.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Racefan66 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:53:17 GMT

lance,

That you would nitpick my example as I have tells me that you really did miss the point that horses are big creatures that communicate roughly with each other... thus supporting that there is a theoretical background to why a whip is a legitimate tool when used appropriately. Perhaps I should've chosen a better word than "foal" to communicate my message. Perhaps your mares were a lot gentler than the ones I've seen over the years... I've seen plenty of foals have gotten a solid thunk from mommy for stepping out of line.

As I read through the comments on this blog, I appreciate that so many people are concerned about the welfare of horses, that is good. But some of the posts, while well intentioned, really do remind me of those folks who pull off the road to lecture me on the cruelty of "blindfolding" my horses to control them (they're flymasks). These are the same folks who then proceed feed carrots to my rescued laminitic pony through her grazing muzzle (in spite of the "no tresspassing signs") causing her immeasurable suffering... the kind of folks who mistake kindness and love for knowledge.

Again, I don't condone abusing horses, but that doesn't mean that I condone folks who think that ignorantly creating a fire and fanning the flames is doing horses anywhere a service. If you want to do good for horses, learn about what can truly improve their quality of life instead of reacting out of your idealized version of what you think horses are. The slaughter plants in the US are closed, unwanted horses starve in a field or are shipped to Mexico to suffer a cruel death in a slaughter plant... so even if you don't love horseracing, seek to legitimately improve it in a meaningful way to give good lives to horses. The alternative is not what you may think it is.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Sue — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:46:29 GMT

I love racing but I am sick of jockeys who abuse the whip! The choice of the use of a jockey with "a strong arm" is usually done by a trainer with the same view. Maybe not in this case, but some need watching by the stewards. As to

Rose, it is beyond cruel to consider hitting a horse in the eye with a whip. If you have every seen how many race horses get eye injuries and how painful they are, you would be appalled. Watch how many horses are running blind in one eye, then think about how many were caused by a whip. Rose is lucky if he gets just a suspension. In the old days, a trainer might take him behind the barn, and whip him in the eye with his strong arm to teach him a lesson.

If this little whiner is sorry and apologetic, then why is he APPEALING THE SUSPENSION? He's not sorry, he's just trying to get out of the suspension. In addition to paying the vet bills on the Mare, he should be required to pay any bills that are related for the life of the mare.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Atthebarn2 — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:46:20 GMT

Recall Corey Nakatani hit a horse on the neck after passing the finish line said the trainer wanted to work him after the race (?)and was fined $500 but the horse was fine. About 10 years ago. Will ask around if anyone who runs out there knows anything else.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

lance guranovich — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:03:09 GMT

atthebarn and i have some differences of opinion in regard to some horse racing issues, but i am in absolute agreement with him on one point and that is how hunter jumpers, eventers, etc. can think of comparing themselves to the participants in a horse race. it is absurd.

also, i believe that jeremy rose was a flagrant violator in regard to the use of the whip on that mare. it is quite possible that his aim was bad, but i believe that the intent was there for all to see and that he was acting out of anger.

to racefan66, i raised seven thoroughbred foals, which is not many by some standards, but i never once saw my mares kick their foals to reprimand them. one of my mares kicked her foal right between the eyes coming out of a turn and it was one of the scariest things i had seen, because that baby dropped like she had been shot. her frontal sinus was fractured and if it had been a little higher, she would have died, but the kick was pure carelessness on the mare's part. mare's will nip at their foals or nudge them with their heads to correct them, but how could you expect a foal to stand up to a kick from a mare, for purposes of discipline or otherwise.?

with the jeremy rose incident in the forefront of racing news, does anyone remember an incident at a southern california track some years ago that involved a well known jockey.

if i remember correctly, it was after the race had been run and on the way back to the unsaddling area, the jockey hit the horse in the head with his whip, causing the horse to veer and stumble ,only to break down. i believe that this horse had to be euthanized.

if anyone out there knows, i would like to know what the fine/suspension was for that incident.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Atthebarn2 — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:36:15 GMT

Bryce Be Quick, you don’t use your legs as a jockey in the traditional sense of riding, you use them for balance and unless you ride with your stirrups a little long , I saw a kid like that the other day, you can’t kick or use leg pressure. How do you stay on? Balance , why do you think they come off so easy when the horse stumbles and in a stock saddle most folks would be able to stay on. It’s hard on the legs and takes a lot of strength I was just saying that it’s very hard to compare the different types of riding because there are different challenges in each. Jocks even ride different races different ways, ask one about the difference between a Quarter Horse race and even a sprint. I’m all for rescuing ex race horses and praise be to anyone who does it, I have quite a few of them just standing around, eating, running in the paddocks and enjoying their lives on the farm,or as saddle horses and even as rodeo horses now. Any one who has an ex race horse will tell you that there’s a wind down period with them and no not because they all receive bad care or were on drugs, if you are a rescuer I'm sure you know the wind down time as well so we know they're high strung and hot blooded. I don’t know too much about event riding but I don’t think there are 14-20 horses running all bunched together between rails, running full out at 45 miles an hour from near start to the finish line and at the tracks like Saratoga, thousands of screaming fans. If I am wrong then I apologize for making an incorrect comparison for that. Jumping and dressage you have a other issues to deal with but you are out there by yourself with one highly trained horse and can plan your actions and not have to predict the actions of a bunch of other living beings, human and equine. All of the sports are beautiful in their own right but I don’t think they are easily compared. AND ONCE AGAIN I DON’T CONDONE the actions of Jeremy but with what’s happening in racing now it compares to executing the guy who hit somebody one time, while sending the murderer to a country club prison for 15 days.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Secretariat's Secretary — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:38:59 GMT

Atthebarn,

All excuses!

That is exactly the kind of attitude that has gotten us to where we are. Lack of leadership. I do not want to!, they do not want to! Believe me, you have no idea what working with the federal government is. NTRA has to be redefined and go from there. Oh! it seems too complicated perhaps. Somebody has to do it! Grand jury?!, every organization will always have criminals and corruption. That is what has to make us different from everybody else.

Believe me that the MLB, NFL, are in way better shape than what horse racing is at the moment. Unless you do not follow the horse racing industry. I would take that any day. "I won't go into the rest of it." The problems are not even similar.

Do you have anything positive to say about the PGA for instance?

Focus on the positive aspects instead, about each organization, and extract the best out of each one that could be applied into the improvement of horse racing.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Huh — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:07:08 GMT

I think that the suspension is meaningless since it only extends to Delaware and plus this punishment should have been the 30 day suspension and the Philly Park jockey should have been the one suspended for 6 months.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Doings what's best for the horse — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:38:47 GMT

If this was accidental he needs to go to Chris McCarrons jockey school for lessons on how to ride.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Atthebarn2 — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:03:27 GMT

Secretary

The NTRA isn't a regulatory board and from the little I've heard doesn't want to be. Racing is trying to come up with something but we have rules for our rules already, I won't go into the rest of it. Correct me if I'm wrong but Congress is or has held hearings on almost all of those organizations and is even finding people in contempt and bringing them before the grand jury. The NFL commissioner is fighting with the players union over salary caps and they've had more strikes in MLB etc than I can count, sounds like they're in fine shape alright.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Atthebarn2 — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:40:07 GMT

Secretary,

the NTRA isn't a regulatory board as of yet. That's what everyone is pushing for now. I'm not sure how well it'll work because racing entities all have their own agendas and no one can agree on much of anything. We're a sport steeped in tradition and change has been slow. I guess we'll see, maybe someday.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Secretariat's Secretary — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 01:51:30 GMT

I believe the regulation of the sport should come directly and strictly from the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA). All other professional sports have their regulatory agency. MLB, MLS, NBA, NFL, PGA, ATP, etc., etc. The involvement of federal legislation is embarrassing and clearly demonstrates that our sport is disorganized and lacks leadership. Perceived as that we do not know what we are doing.

This is a very complex matter, but it is very possible with cooperation and good leadership. One set of rules for all racing jurisdictions, like all the other professional sports.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Kincsem62 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:16:17 GMT

Striking an animal in the face or head is nothing more than an act of punishment. He is extremely fortunate that something much more catastrophic didn't occur as a result of his idiotic and out-of-control actions. It's bad enough that this poor horse now has an injury because of his temper. In my opinion, 6 months is a slap on the wrist. His so-called riding "tactics" truly show a lack of expertise and control, as well as compassion for and understanding of the animal that has been entrusted to his care. What a bum!!

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

HORSEWLD — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 06:29:20 GMT

R Dorsey, assistint trainer, yea right. I would like to know what horseman whips a horse in their flank. Come on. Really. There is not a person on this blog that buys that you've ever even sat in a saddle let alone ast. trained buy your non-horsemanship comments you've made. Watch a race, better yet, read a book. I know, how about Horsemanship for Beginners.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

HORSEWLD — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 05:17:15 GMT

I wonder if R.Dorsey has seen more than three or four races just by the comments of whipping procedures used. If you are an avid race fan or gamble on the sport you most likely watch TVG or HRTV, therefore, you see the whip being used to smack the shoulder not just run across it. R. Dorsey also states that the whip is used to strike the horse in the FLANK.... come on, where's your horse sense. The whip is used to strike the hindquarter area which is behind the sometimes dangerously sensitive FLANK, also to strike and graze the shoulder area as well as to flag the horse's face and head area. Also what was said about the saddle blanket made even less sense. So this person needs to pay far better attention to what they watch and what they comment on or they'll be made out to sound as foolish as these comments have proclaimed. As for J.R. I hope he can come to grips with his mistake, accident or not, and move on with the rest of his life and career, whenever it may resume, with the blessings of wisdom, reservation, luck and prosperity.

re: Does the Punishment Fit the Crime?

Atthebarn2 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 01:27:16 GMT

R Dorsey, One other thing if you were an assistant trainer I'd like to know where you were stabled and what trainer you worked for that would ever tell a jock to hit the horse on the flank. I tried to gently suggest that you don't do it to give you a chance to retract it and support your claim as to your connection to racing but here's the actual rule the NYRA and most of the major tracks have: you can only strike a horse on the hind quarters and shoulder and no use of whip on flanks or face/head. That rule has been in effect since around 97-98 if I recall correctly. The Jockey club just came out with this:

THE JOCKEY CLUB

THOROUGHBRED SAFETY COMMITTEE

RECOMMENDATION

JUNE 17, 2008

"Prohibited use of the whip riding crop includes striking a horse:

i. on the head, flanks or on any other part of its body other than the shoulders or hind quarters except when necessary to control a horse" I've been reading along here for quite some time before posting and have seen you refer to yourself as a horsewoman, but never an assitant trainer. I also saw that you praised Kent for not riding out and injuring the horse. I also saw you defend him and Jason called you out when you erroneously said Larry Jones said people didn't like Kent. If not for the fact of your inexplicable defense of the use of steroids by a known violator of the medication rules, I would have thought you were an animal rights activist.